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#5719158 - 10/16/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: derby_dude]  
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Raisuli Offline
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JBGQUICK,

Black bears are predators, although they might not prey all that often. They can prey upon large ungulates.

I do recall reading a story in an outdoor magazine of a fisherman, in Minnesota I believe, who was returning with a creel of fish. A black bear killed him and took his fish. Since bears like nutrient-rich fish, just the smell of them on my hands is disconcerting. That's one of the reasons I try to release my catch without taking it out of water and without handling them.

A marina worker in the Eastern Sierra told me that black bears raid fish cleaning stations at night. They don't even have to waste energy looking for their own. They dine on leftovers.

I have heard the loud noise bear defense strategy. And I have heard of black bears attacking and killing humans regardless of defensive strategy. National Geographic airs a program about how dangerous male black bears in heat are. They will kill just to kill.

I live among black bears. In fact, they walk streets of my community at night. That's why I don't walk anywhere at night, avoidance being my primary defense. I have fished a lot in the Eastern Sierra where they're seen in campgrounds & near lakes. So if I see them around I know to find another fishing hole.

Black bears are probably the greatest concern to fishermen in the Eastern Sierra, but there are other critters that can kill me just as dead, including bipedal vermin. I wouldn't doubt felons holed up in the High Sierra. Charles Manson had his ranch in the Eastern Sierra not too far from where we fish. The Eastern Sierra also has a substantial lion population.

The most feared critter in the Eastern Sierra is the elusive but predatory jackolope. Every year many fisherman disappear & are feared to have become 'lope victims. I heard tell of a particularly vicious one that chased a half dozen anglers waist deep in a frigid High Sierra lake & held them at bey until a posse of game wardens chased it & off with RPG's. I think the posse might've wounded it. Chupacabras are becoming a problem in the Eastern Sierra, too. When they get a whiff of bear spray or hear loud horns they come alookin' for dinner. I hear they've taken a liking to afternoon skinny dipping in High Sierra lakes. Not even a gauge works on chupies. But they're slow running downhill, so you got half a chance if you find yourself on a slope & surrounded by a pack of blood-thirsty chupies.

What would fishing be w/o a few good fish tails (tales)?


Buena Suerte,

R

CMG 300 BP

#5722622 - 10/17/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: Raisuli]  
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varmintsinc Offline
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I sprayed between 50-60 individuals (I wont count fogging a bar to clear it out smile ) and at least a dozen dogs with OC based sprays (stream, mist, gel and foam) and cannot say it ever worked on those that were actually determined to carry out the fight. Yes, the irritant factor eventually took effect (or the gel/foam actually blocked the eyes) and the eyes were forced closed and breathing was more difficult but that would not have been enough to actually stop a fight in the time needed to stop a charge. Usually the spray was used to convince people that they really did not want to fight or is was simply a distraction for the taser or baton that was to follow. The most effective tool against dogs was a simple CO2 extinguisher, that actually worked 100% of the time on dogs.

I completely understand the physiological aspect of how OC works and how the heat factor is measured and I see nothing to support stopping an animal that has a very limited amount of mucus membrane exposed. In every account of a successful bear defense I have found with OC it seemed to involve a less than determined bear. This mirrors my experience with OC, if someone was not committed to the assault or time/distance allowed avoiding the initial contact it worked fairly well. I have no problem with OC being part of the plan but a big problem if it is the only plan.

I guess I might be more impressed with OC if I saw African guides carrying it for defense against the big cats and buffalo. wink


Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.

"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper

#5722920 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: varmintsinc]  
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byron Offline
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I've been following this discussion with interesr as to others experience with bear spray on bears. When I go out into the woods here in Wyoming, it is usually in grizzly country. In the course of doing my job I too have used pepper spray on dogs. Some of these dogs are suspected of being used for fighting.So far the spray has been 100% effective. I also just caught a report on the local news by the guy's from the Best of the West series. They were rolling a ball down a hill and trying to shoot it. The conclusion they came to was that roughly 50% of the time, they missed. Having played with the charging bear set up at the Linebaugh shoot's, I'd say that's about right. Their conclusion supposedly matched investigation's of bear defense shooting's in that half the time the bear was just pissed off even more, and the person was mauled and or killed. They further concluded that you are twice as likley to be mauled or killed if you use a handgun for defense against grizzly bears as opposed to pepper spray. Sorry for the long post, but I thought this would maybe add some food for thought.

Last edited by byron; 10/18/11.
#5723022 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: byron]  
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Whitworth1 Offline
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Originally Posted by byron
I've been following this discussion with interesr as to others experience with bear spray on bears. When I go out into the woods here in Wyoming, it is usually in grizzly country. In the course of doing my job I too have used pepper spray on dogs. Some of these dogs are suspected of being used for fighting.So far the spray has been 100% effective. I also just caught a report on the local news by the guy's from the Best of the West series. They were rolling a ball down a hill and trying to shoot it. The conclusion they came to was that roughly 50% of the time, they missed. Having played with the charging bear set up at the Linebaugh shoot's, I'd say that's about right. Their conclusion supposedly matched investigation's of bear defense shooting's in that half the time the bear was just pissed off even more, and the person was mauled and or killed. They further concluded that you are twice as likley to be mauled or killed if you use a handgun for defense against grizzly bears as opposed to pepper spray. Sorry for the long post, but I thought this would maybe add some food for thought.


I don't doubt any of this, but I wonder the percentage of shooters with a scoped rifle that can actually hit a bear in the vitals that is charging. Sorry for the thread hijacking.



Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE
#5724113 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: Whitworth1]  
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maarty Offline
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I think the problem with these threads is the bear sprayers and the pistol toters are talking about two different scenarios.
The sprayers are talking about a bear still running at you where most of the toters know the pistol is for muzzle to fur last ditch defence.

At least that's my take on it based on the sprayers most common reasoning against pistol use of not being able to consistently hit the target.

Same applies to those who say use your rifle or shotgun, they're talking about stopping the bear while it's coming at you, which I agree with.

Now no one in their right mind is going to stand and wait till they're being chewed before trying to stop it from happening but once you're on your back under a bear I think most sane people would want something that's going to do damage to the bear.
I also think most pistol toters have enough sense to try to avoid being charged and to try to do something to cause the bear to find easier "prey" or a more comfortable place to be, or to use their rifle if they have time and room to do so.


The original international turd
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#5724275 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: maarty]  
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DocRocket Offline
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Good points, maarty.

I think that most people, and this thread is no exception, tend to oversimplify bear behavior and the dynamics of aggressive bear encounters.

I've a lot of experience in bear encounters, some 30+ encounters inside 40 yards, which is a lot if you're not a bear biologist or frequent bear hunter. These have been something like 3 to 1 grizzly encounters, since most of my backcountry ramblings have been in grizzly country rather than black bear country. I have been bluff-charged twice and stalked/hunted once; I've had bears completely ignore me, others have growled and bristled, others have looked at me with varying degrees of apparent curiosity and then either continued about their business or moved away in a non-threatening manner. I don't claim to be a bear expert, but based on the wide variety of bear behaviors that I've personally observed, I'd say it's pretty difficult to say what exactly is a "typical" bear encounter.

As I've posted earlier and on other threads, Herrero's book is a good general reference, and Gary Shelton's "Bear Attacks" books are outstanding learning tools which take into account the more recent developments in bear behavior, use of pepper spray, and so forth.

I would STRONGLY urge anyone concerned about what to carry for defense in bear country to read these books. After reading them, I think it will be a lot easier to separate the useful replies in a thread like this from the opinionated ramblings of the ill-informed.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
#5724851 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: DocRocket]  
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varmintsinc Offline
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I think Doc makes excellent points about the variety of encounters you can face. I think its also fair to say the variety of bear encounters represents how the affectiveness of OC could be based on how determined the bear is. A curious bear that is getting closer hoping you will give up your pack or string of fish is going to be much easier to turn with spray than a pissed off mama if you accidently get between her and a cub.

This is what I had in mind when I mentioned having spray can definetly be a part of your plan but not your only plan.


Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.

"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper

#5724890 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: jwp475]  
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McInnis Offline
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Spray for nuisance bears, but leave the condiments at the table for a determined attacker


Dang jpw, it took you six pages to get to your condiment joke? You must be slowing down.

I really think people that minimize the effectiveness of bear spray haven't used it. So much easier to hit a fast moving, bouncing target with a jet stream that you can see, and adjust your aim with, than a bullet. And the pepper spray will likely cause the bear to stop his charge and worry about his eyes - a bullet anywhere but in the CNS? Incredible rage that will get you killed.

#5725124 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: McInnis]  
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toad Offline
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Originally Posted by McInnis
Quote
Spray for nuisance bears, but leave the condiments at the table for a determined attacker


Dang jpw, it took you six pages to get to your condiment joke? You must be slowing down.

I really think people that minimize the effectiveness of bear spray haven't used it. So much easier to hit a fast moving, bouncing target with a jet stream that you can see, and adjust your aim with, than a bullet. And the pepper spray will likely cause the bear to stop his charge and worry about his eyes - a bullet anywhere but in the CNS? Incredible rage that will get you killed.


no, the condiment 'joke' has surfaced several times earlier in this thread.

here is the FWP PDF on the subject. they seem to agree.

LINKY


Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
#5725235 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: toad]  
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derby_dude Offline
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Thanks for the link. I'll think on it.


Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous

"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude


Bravo

#5725396 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: derby_dude]  
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RJM Offline
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grin...I am currently in Pennsylvania black powder deer hunting with Ken (firearms44) and several others. None of the other guys are carrying handguns....I'm still carrying the 357PD .41 Magnum.

Yesterday one of the guys was hunting about a mile from the cabin and I dropped him off with the agreement to pick him up at 6:50 pm... About 6:40 I get call from him to please come and pick him up about 300 yards west of the pickup area. Seems that at about 5:00 pm a bow hunter crossed the field right in front of him and when he saw my friend came over and apologized for for disturbing his hunt but he was in a stand across the field when he spotted a LARGE black bear that started tearing up a log not far from him... He then hurriedly left the area.

My friend stayed till about 6:15 when he started hearing growling coming closer....he then vacated the area also...and called me when he hit the road....

Funny now everyone one in camp is now planning on carrying from now on....

Bob


If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
#5725420 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: derby_dude]  
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byron Offline
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I will say that DR probably is spot on. What constitute's normal bear behavior? As to differing scenarios, kicking through the willow's along the creek, I doubt it's going to make much difference what you're carrying. You will more than likely be hard pressed to deploy whatever you're carrying. Myself, I carry spray backed by a heavy caliber revolver when the range might be close.

#5725792 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: Raisuli]  
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Leanwolf Online content
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Leanwolf  Online Content
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Quote
RAISULI - "Chupacabras are becoming a problem in the Eastern Sierra, too."


Really? When we lived in Los Angeles (36 years), we owned a vacation cabin up in the Sierra, but on the western slope, Tulare County. The chupacabras had pretty well been wiped out up there by the werewolves. I once talked with a Calif. Game Warden who told me that most of the werewolves were then over on the eastern slope, putting the sneak on all the chupacabras on that side of the Sierra and would soon "extinct 'em." Guess not. wink

L.W.


"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
#5725815 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: Leanwolf]  
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bobbyjack Offline
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I'll pass this on to you free of charge(course if you patend it
you might send me some $ back)take the Capsend pepper spray and

put the SKUNK SPRAY smell in it! Even the largest of Brown

or black bears will retreet from brother Skunk!

Bob

#5726078 - 10/18/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: bobbyjack]  
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Raisuli Offline
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Leanwolf,

Yeah, you're right! The werewolves were putting a healthy dent in the chupie population until zombies started biting the 'wolves back. Now we got night of the living chupies up there that're immune from head shots with silver bullets. Even worse, I heard tell a mean, wicked story that Rosie O'Donnell has been looking for property up there. Now that's a scary monster that even Godzilla fears. The Rosie thing's got Dracula more scared than Gilroy garlic, so he listed his castle with Prudential.

God, do I miss the Munsters. Herman sure had it goin' on!

Could it be it's gettin' close to All Hollow's Eve??? But the part about Rosie might be true 'cause the 'yotes ain't howlin' up there: they're cryin"!

Leanwolf, you keep going & I'll keep reading.

Just in case our non-Californian friends aren't aware that Gilbert Gilroy had to commence to garlic farmin' because Dracula was house huntin' up there: http://www.garlicworld.com/


Take Care,

R

Last edited by Raisuli; 10/18/11.
#5728088 - 10/19/11 Re: Bear self defense with a hand gun... [Re: Raisuli]  
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Leanwolf Online content
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Originally Posted by Raisuli
Leanwolf,

Leanwolf, you keep going & I'll keep reading.

Just in case our non-Californian friends aren't aware that Gilbert Gilroy had to commence to garlic farmin' because Dracula was house huntin' up there: http://www.garlicworld.com/


Raisuli, I'm afraid you've got me there. I don't think I can top that!

BTW, one of my hunting partners here was born and raised in Gilroy. He said today, he can't eat anything that has garlic in it. grin

L.W.


"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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