Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Geothermal heat pump 65% total tax credit

If I understand correctly there is a 30% federal tax credit and a 35% State credit <cap on State is $8400.00> that is available for the installation of a new geothermal heat pump system. Our older dual fuel heat pump is starting to have some problems.... it burns a bunch of propane for the heat strip stage too....

So if a new system cost $30000.00 our out of pocket expense after we got out tax return back would be about $9000.00. I'll pick up the exact # of $ we spend on propane in a year but I'm guessing close to $2000.00.

The gentleman I spoke with today told me that out old heat pump is only a 11 SEER unit and that the geothermal unit would be 20 SEER.... his ballpark estimate was that we would save about 40% on our electric bill <even after subtracting the whole cost of propane we currently use>. We spend about $225.00 for electric per Month.

I'm math skills impaired but it sure does seem like the payback on a new system would be fairly short and the expected service like on a geothermal unit is about double of a conventional system.

I'd like to hear from members here who have geothermal heat.... am I missing anything or is going with the new system vs trying to nurse the old system along for a few more years pretty much a no brainer?

We replaced a 30 year old 11-SEER with a 20-SEER unit last year. We run the A/C 9 to 10 months out of the year; very little heating required here. Our house is all-electric; power bills for the last year have averaged about $90 per month less than for the year before the upgrade.
I got the federal tax credit but nothing on state; even so, it will pay for itself in less than 4 years.

Thanks...

You might search geothermal for life expectancy, not that standard units are worth a chit today either.

But as an inspector, all our local guys are very leery of them. Granted we are small town USA and so on. But its worth looking into.

But then 30K for a system sounds high to me.

I know that I was told that wells are a better deal than ground loops here, but we hopefully are soon to have a larger pond out back, and around 20 foot deep and I'm going to attempt to bury a LOT of ground loop coils at the bottom of that before it fills up, just in case... 22 or 3 feet deep plus a load of water on top should be dang cool even here IMHO...

Good luck. Dads house went from 8 to 21 seer in 2005, and the cooling bill dropped considerably. Of course we doubled insulation to R50 in the attic at the same time, but it dropped some 200 bucks a month....

How do they work for heating your home?

Let me tell you about my brother's experience with these geothermal heat pumps. We had concerns that his water supply wouldn't be sufficient to run this system, and sure enough, within two years, he pumped his well dry. He re-drilled to access a deeper aquifer, and pumped that dry within another year. Now, they have very limited water availability, and have to be ultra conservative in their water useage. 'Still running the geothermal unit, more because he's too stubborn to admit he made a mistake, but it's to the point that they won't flush the toilet if someone "just pees in it." I'm not living like that. They can't even run more than a load of laundry every other day or between that and the heat pumps insatiable appetite for water, they pump their well dry.

These pumps aren't all their cracked up to be. Make sure sure you research them very carefully before investing. I live in Minnesota where you can't hardly stick a shovel in the ground without hitting water, and I'd never consider owning one of these systems.

Gopher, How is your brothers geo "using" all this water? These units transfer energy using water but they dont consume it.

I saw an old style that used "waste water". The old hippy used the water once, then it went to drain. Like old style waste water condensors, the tap water just goes to drain.

A cooling/heating loop is far better nowadays...

My daughter just did the math on replacing a gas furnace with a geothermal unit, and came up with a 9 year payback. However, I've had furnaces that didn't last 9 years. She's going to go with a high-efficiency gas furnace, & be done with it.

FWIW, I think the total for the geothermal was $28K before any credits.

FC

in a loop, I don't see how you waste water and IIRC, in a ground loop its not even water thats being used.

Can't comment on wells.

BUT I reemmber I have my cousins Dad that put a system in well over 10 years ago, I'll inquire about that one... it had wells though.... It cooled very well. And we don't get "cold" so to speak.

If these systems generate a favorable return on investment, then one might ask why government is offering incentives in it...

Bro's system carries the water out towards the back of his property and dumps it there. We had hoped to be able to build a small pond out there supplied by the water from the pump, but it doesn't seem like that will happen. If it only happened with the one well, I'd be more inclined to say it's a weak water supply, but when he re-drilled deeper, and the same thing happened again, it's got to be the pump, I think.

Guys-this is an older system,as the house was built about 35 years ago. I'm sure the technology's different now, but I'm still gunshy after my bro's experience.

It depends on where you live. I'm in a zone 6B area. Here, a modern 15 to 18 SEER heat pump will do just fine in a standard ambient air exchange unit.

Consider the amount of total hours a heat pump is out of "optimal" temperature (meaning at night during the winter and mid to late day in summer). They still work, just not quite as efficiently. So we're talking maybe 2 months out of 12 that may not be in the optimal range. Otherwise they are great.

Then think about that $30K.....and how many years it would take to realize that difference in electric savings. I believe you will wear out the compressor before you ever catch up on paying for the original system.

The only other factor to consider... how much energy costs continue to rise.. especially with this idiotic demand of electric cars...

Your brother has what is commonly called a "pump and dump" system. LOTS of wasted water with these systems.

If I had the cash I'd put in a geothermal heating and cooling system in a heartbeat, but rather than do a "pump and dump" system where well water is run through the system and then dumped to a pond, I'd go with what is called a closed loop system.

A closed loop system uses a series of loops in the ground. The number of loops is dependent on the required size of the heating/cooling system. Generally there is one in-ground loop for each ton of equipment size. These loops typically use 300' of tubing each and can be bored vertically to approximately 150' or excavated horizontally to a depth of several feet and approximately 150' long. The vertical bore system is more expensive, but requires less real estate and is less disruptive to the environment.

Loops can also be installed in ponds or lakes as long as the body of water is big enough to maintain relatively stable temps and deep enough to not freeze to the bottom. These types of loops often run into the issue of getting permission from the state or local environmental agencies.

The big advantage closed loops have is that they reuse the same water over and over again. Because of this, they don't take massive quantities of water from the aquifer. Also, the quality of the water can be controled. The importance of this cannot be overstated. Water quality is very important to the longevity of the geothermal unit. The loop installation companies we contract with use distilled water with neutral PH. IIRC, these loops also come with a 50 year warranty, though I'm sure that varies from installer to installer.

Closed loops work fine IF they are installed properly. When they have problems it can be costly. I have been a HVAC guy for a long time and wouldn't have one. Ken