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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Originally Posted by MacLorry
. . . so they would just increase 999 to 12-12-12 to make up for it. Cain has never been able to explain how 999 wouldn't increase given he could only block such increases for 8 years max.


Cain has explained more than once that in his legislation he would require a 2/3 majority of Congress to increase any of the "9's" . . . He explained that the people would not allow an increase.


Which demonstrates Cain's lack of experience. Nothing one Congress does can't be undone by the next Congress including Cain's requirement of a 2/3 majority to raise taxes. A simple majority can repeal any prior legislation and then vote to increase taxes. Only a constitution amendment can bind future Congresses.

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Sorry, that's rule number 2. Number 1 is: To trap an animal, create a temptation and remove all suspicion. Seems to apply.


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Originally Posted by oldtrapper
PS Taxes on wages, for wage earners, does not bother me one bit as an employer. I have more money left over to hire more folks.


Actually, as an employer, you would see a 2.04% increase in the taxes you would pay on the wages you pay under Cain's plan. Regardless of how you feel about that, it raises the price of American labor, so more jobs will go overseas. That's not going to fix the economy.

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Originally Posted by NH K9


Not much for me to find fault with, my friend. In regards to your second group, though, the Church "should" assist but the family should be the primary support system if they are able.

George


Yep.


The first time I shot myself in the head...

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Hardly, a lowering of business taxes and an increase on consumption shifts the tax burden away from the American business and puts more on the imports, making American producers more competitive, once again allowing me to hire more folks.


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Originally Posted by MacLorry
Originally Posted by GeauxLSU
Mac,
Here you go http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/October_Poll.pdf
Start on page 14 and pay special note to the negative scores. And realize that is now 3 days old BEFORE the last debate and his latest surge upward.
Then... when you get to page 17 note what people say is more important (ability to beat BO vs views in line with theirs).
I'm sure YOU feel Romney is "the only one that can beat Obama". The FACT is each will get the ABO vote but many will NOT pull the lever for Obamalite.


Thanks for the link. However, the poll you cite applies to the Republican primary, not the general election. The polls I cited are Cain vs Obama and Romney vs Obama. I can�t find any such polls that show Cain winning against Obama.

My number one top goal is to send Obama packing, so I will support the Republican who has the best chance of defeating Obama in the general election, whoever that Republican is. Right now that�s Romney. Cain would be great if he had spent more time developing a better tax plan, one that didn�t raise taxes on 40 million plus voters.
Pretty soon I'm going to start to realize you are just a Romney shill having a little fun yanking my chain since no one can be this unaware of what is actually happening right now. But here you go. Again, BEFORE latest surge. http://www.zogby.com/news/2011/10/0...s-lead-over-gop-field-leads-obama-46-44/


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Originally Posted by MacLorry
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Originally Posted by MacLorry
. . . so they would just increase 999 to 12-12-12 to make up for it. Cain has never been able to explain how 999 wouldn't increase given he could only block such increases for 8 years max.


Cain has explained more than once that in his legislation he would require a 2/3 majority of Congress to increase any of the "9's" . . . He explained that the people would not allow an increase.


Which demonstrates Cain's lack of experience. Nothing one Congress does can't be undone by the next Congress including Cain's requirement of a 2/3 majority to raise taxes. A simple majority can repeal any prior legislation and then vote to increase taxes. Only a constitution amendment can bind future Congresses.
Again, Mr. Cain's other and valid, probably more valid than any legislative constraints, is the fact for ONCE in every American's lifetime they will actually KNOW what they pay in taxes. Any attempt to raise taxes would be immediately known by and affect EVERYONE. How well do you think that attempt would go?
Today they change rates, they change brackets, they change deductions, they change exemptions, carry forward rules, etc... etc... and it's always to the detriment of "the other guy". People have NO clue if their individual rate changes from year to year which is exactly the point of having such a system.


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Originally Posted by MacLorry
The current income tax allows parents a deduction for each child, but Cain's plan doesn't. If you think that's fair then you don't understand the societal benefit of raising the next generation of law abiding citizens who will make positive contributions to society in the future. The tax deduction for kids is an investment with proven returns.
Wow. THIS sums up the whole debate perfectly. MacLorry, you obviously favor the government deciding what is 'good' in relations to families huh? Perfect. The same government that is legalizing homosexual marriage you want involved in deciding if or how many children those "familes" (by THEIR definition by the way) should have and doing so by financially rewarding some and penalizing those that don't fall in line? Seriously? So your neighbor who chooses NOT to have kids needs to subsidize YOUR kids.
The government shouldn't give deductions (which presumably we both acknowledge is preferential treatment) to ANYONE, ANY COMPANY, or ANY ACTIVITY. Once again, that is VOTE BUYING at the cost of other Americans. What's better for the economy than home ownership? My goodness surely we don't want to eliminate the interest deduction on mortgages do we? I mean the government knows how to handle the financial housing market..... right?
FYI - I am married, have a son and mortgage interest. I should not be subsidized (3 different times) by my widowed co-worker who lost his family in an accident and rents. It is immoral.


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Originally Posted by MacLorry
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
PS Taxes on wages, for wage earners, does not bother me one bit as an employer. I have more money left over to hire more folks.


Actually, as an employer, you would see a 2.04% increase in the taxes you would pay on the wages you pay under Cain's plan. Regardless of how you feel about that, it raises the price of American labor, so more jobs will go overseas. That's not going to fix the economy.


Well, that's not right and Mac Lorry steps in it again. Typical for this guy. Capital gains for businesses would drop from 35% to 9%!!
Businesses would be allowed to expense capital investments at 100% the year they were purchased!! The CBO has scored it as an economic winner, fwiw.
While all aspects are not fully vetted, the 999 is kind of a hybrid consumption tax. There would be a transitional period where allowances will have to be made, ie. ROTH IRA's.
It will raise federal tax for the bottom 48% from zero to 9%. but that doesn't mean a) your pay won't go up and b)9% of a wage is better than zero income.

I don't know if the present tax system will or ever can be repealed. There are just too many special interests involved.

It is foolish to quote polling numbers at this stage in the game. They are changing daily as the candidates continue to be vetted.

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Originally Posted by GeauxLSU
Originally Posted by MacLorry
The current income tax allows parents a deduction for each child, but Cain's plan doesn't. If you think that's fair then you don't understand the societal benefit of raising the next generation of law abiding citizens who will make positive contributions to society in the future. The tax deduction for kids is an investment with proven returns.
Wow. THIS sums up the whole debate perfectly. MacLorry, you obviously favor the government deciding what is 'good' in relations to families huh? Perfect. The same government that is legalizing homosexual marriage you want involved in deciding if or how many children those "familes" (by THEIR definition by the way) should have and doing so by financially rewarding some and penalizing those that don't fall in line? Seriously? So your neighbor who chooses NOT to have kids needs to subsidize YOUR kids.
The government shouldn't give deductions (which presumably we both acknowledge is preferential treatment) to ANYONE, ANY COMPANY, or ANY ACTIVITY. Once again, that is VOTE BUYING at the cost of other Americans. What's better for the economy than home ownership? My goodness surely we don't want to eliminate the interest deduction on mortgages do we? I mean the government knows how to handle the financial housing market..... right?
FYI - I am married, have a son and mortgage interest. I should not be subsidized (3 different times) by my widowed co-worker who lost his family in an accident and rents. It is immoral.


Right on LSU!! Mac the Great is an elitist snob who knows how we all should think. Where is the link between a "child deduction" and raising that same child to be a productive member of society. Hey, Mac the Great, show us any relevant research that shows a link between child tax deductions and "proven returns". Are you an "analyst" for the teachers union?

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Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Hardly, a lowering of business taxes and an increase on consumption shifts the tax burden away from the American business and puts more on the imports, making American producers more competitive, once again allowing me to hire more folks.


While Cain's plan may lower the overall taxes on business it increases the cost of labor by 2.04%, which makes it even cheaper to send jobs overseas. It's the loss of millions of good paying jobs that's the real problem in the U.S., not the tax code, and Cain's plan makes job loss worse.

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Originally Posted by bigwhoop
Right on LSU!! Mac the Great is an elitist snob who knows how we all should think. Where is the link between a "child deduction" and raising that same child to be a productive member of society. Hey, Mac the Great, show us any relevant research that shows a link between child tax deductions and "proven returns". Are you an "analyst" for the teachers union?
By his logic (Government financially encouraging/supporting child birth) "entitlement" families ought to be raising some of the most productive kids on earth.


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Originally Posted by MacLorry
Cain's plan makes job loss worse.
Keeping stating those indefensible opinions as declarative facts. Somebody will eventually start to believe them. It works for Obama.


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Originally Posted by GeauxKSU
Again, Mr. Cain's other and valid, probably more valid than any legislative constraints, is the fact for ONCE in every American's lifetime they will actually KNOW what they pay in taxes. Any attempt to raise taxes would be immediately known by and affect EVERYONE. How well do you think that attempt would go? Today they change rates, they change brackets, they change deductions, they change exemptions, carry forward rules, etc... etc... and it's always to the detriment of "the other guy". People have NO clue if their individual rate changes from year to year which is exactly the point of having such a system.


I was debunking Cain's claim of requiring a 2/3 majority to raise taxes. Nothing you wrote disputes how misgudded that notion is.

As for it not changing, well that's nonsense given Cain's own plan is to change it to the so-called "Fair Tax", and that rate will be much different.

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Wait, wait! I've just decided that I SUPPORT the 9-9-9- tax plan, based on a report that I'll pay a lot less under this plan than under the current tax structure.

See: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/financial-decoder/herman-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan-winners-and-losers/5365/?tag=col1;fd-banner-news

Story:

Headline "Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 Tax Plan: Winners and Losers"

"As GOP presidential hopeful Herman Cain touts his catchy 9-9-9 tax plan, one image comes to mind: an ad for a delicious-looking pizza that is nothing more than an empty promise. Sure, that image is mouth-watering, but when you open the box and take one bite, you�re sorely disappointed.

"This is an apt metaphor for the former CEO of Godfather�s Pizza, who is the flavor of the week in the GOP beauty contest. The plan is as simple as it sounds: blow up the current tax code and replace it with a 9 percent personal flat tax, a 9 percent corporate flat tax and a 9 percent national sales tax. Get it? 9-9-9! You can almost hear Ron Popeil voicing the ad �it slices, it dices, it�s Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 plan!�

"But like with many slick ads, the product doesn�t live up to the hype.

"The first problem is the plan is short on details, so economists are having a tough time crunching the numbers. That said, we can identify some losers out of the gate � the nearly 40 percent of Americans who do not pay income tax, would now pay 9 percent. Cain has said that there would his plan would protect those living below the poverty line, but he didn�t say how that would happen.

"How about the average worker? Cain has said these folks would make out, because �You have to start with the biggest tax cut a lot of Americans pay, which is the payroll tax, 15.3 percent,� he said. �That goes to 9 percent. That�s a 6 percentage point difference.� Except it isn�t, because workers only pay one-half of the payroll tax, or 7.65 percent. So 9 percent flat income tax rate would increase taxes by 1.35 percentage points, or more than 17 percent.

"Winners under Cain�s plan include higher earning taxpayers, who would see a great benefit under the 9-9-9 plan. The reason is that many of the wealthiest Americans pay the lion�s share of their taxes on income from investments and capital gains. Under Cain�s plan, those two taxes disappear. Small business owners would also score, because they could pay themselves with dividends (which would no longer be taxed) instead of wages."

Hell, let the poor pay for 2 unfunded wars and more of my share! I want mine!!!




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Originally Posted by MacLorry
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Hardly, a lowering of business taxes and an increase on consumption shifts the tax burden away from the American business and puts more on the imports, making American producers more competitive, once again allowing me to hire more folks.


While Cain's plan may lower the overall taxes on business it increases the cost of labor by 2.04%, which makes it even cheaper to send jobs overseas. It's the loss of millions of good paying jobs that's the real problem in the U.S., not the tax code, and Cain's plan makes job loss worse.


Keep repeating your imbecilic statements!! Cain is a successful businessman who forgot more economic sense then our little Warlord ever knew!


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djs,
You are making a fatal mistake in your comment. The worker DOES pay all 15.3% of their employment taxes. The company factors that tax in with the salary they pay the employee. At the end of the day, you paycheck shows your 7.65% payment in writing, but the dirty little secret is that YOU PAID IT ALL!
Get educated people!


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So typical of you to play the class warfare card.

F'kin' lie-beral .gov-shill....

Originally Posted by djs
Wait, wait! I've just decided that I SUPPORT the 9-9-9- tax plan, based on a report that I'll pay a lot less under this plan than under the current tax structure.

See: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/financial-decoder/herman-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan-winners-and-losers/5365/?tag=col1;fd-banner-news

Story:

Headline "Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 Tax Plan: Winners and Losers"

"As GOP presidential hopeful Herman Cain touts his catchy 9-9-9 tax plan, one image comes to mind: an ad for a delicious-looking pizza that is nothing more than an empty promise. Sure, that image is mouth-watering, but when you open the box and take one bite, you�re sorely disappointed.

"This is an apt metaphor for the former CEO of Godfather�s Pizza, who is the flavor of the week in the GOP beauty contest. The plan is as simple as it sounds: blow up the current tax code and replace it with a 9 percent personal flat tax, a 9 percent corporate flat tax and a 9 percent national sales tax. Get it? 9-9-9! You can almost hear Ron Popeil voicing the ad �it slices, it dices, it�s Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 plan!�

"But like with many slick ads, the product doesn�t live up to the hype.

"The first problem is the plan is short on details, so economists are having a tough time crunching the numbers. That said, we can identify some losers out of the gate � the nearly 40 percent of Americans who do not pay income tax, would now pay 9 percent. Cain has said that there would his plan would protect those living below the poverty line, but he didn�t say how that would happen.

"How about the average worker? Cain has said these folks would make out, because �You have to start with the biggest tax cut a lot of Americans pay, which is the payroll tax, 15.3 percent,� he said. �That goes to 9 percent. That�s a 6 percentage point difference.� Except it isn�t, because workers only pay one-half of the payroll tax, or 7.65 percent. So 9 percent flat income tax rate would increase taxes by 1.35 percentage points, or more than 17 percent.

"Winners under Cain�s plan include higher earning taxpayers, who would see a great benefit under the 9-9-9 plan. The reason is that many of the wealthiest Americans pay the lion�s share of their taxes on income from investments and capital gains. Under Cain�s plan, those two taxes disappear. Small business owners would also score, because they could pay themselves with dividends (which would no longer be taxed) instead of wages."

Hell, let the poor pay for 2 unfunded wars and more of my share! I want mine!!!







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999 does away with depreciation schedules,right? A business just expenses all purchases in the year they are made,right?

And all material purchased to make products is subject to the 9% sales tax.There is no requirement for a year-end inventory under 999.

So the company can sell unneeded items from its' inventory to another U.S.company and collect no tax because the items are used.

And used machinery just drifts thru the stream of commerce forever untaxed.

I don't believe there is a way in hell to estimate how much revenue the Nat'l Sales Tax will generate.It is just too much of a game changer for the way companies do business.


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Where to even start on such an objective analysis. I especially like all the little demeaning comments in the intro. At least you know what tripe you are about to be subjected to. I'll just pick one...
Originally Posted by djs
Except it isn�t, because workers only pay one-half of the payroll tax, or 7.65 percent.
Yep.... just like corporations pay tax and not customers.... whistle
People are nothing if not gullible.
It is interesting how this so obviously undesirable and clearly unworkable and unpassable plan has so many 'objective reporters' all a flutter. grin


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