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After having been a W2 wage earner, part of a partnership, owner in both C Corp and S Corp companies, and a sole proprietor, almost anything would be an improvement on our current tax codes!! Wait and hear the man out! There is some merit there! Not to mention the fact that the IRS needs to be cut back greatly! If Cain's economic plan is 999 then he owes the public a detailed description of that plan so it can be scored. No one is going to give him a free pass during the primary only find out it's a fatally flawed plan when it's Cain vs. Obama. The stakes are just too high.
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That's very true, we need to listen!
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I promise you he worked for the government, never saved, has zero retirement, and now needs "the rich" to pay for his lack of stewardship in the form of SS. Who are you addressing? I just happen to know a bit about the current tax system and how to evaluate Cain's plan. If my numbers are wrong, just show that's the case with your own numbers. Can you do that? I took a quick look at Cain's website, and the 999 plan taxes "gross income" less some other costs. If that term is used by Cain in its technical sense, then the costs of direct labor would be deductible as part of "cost of goods sold". Gross income is not the same as gross receipts. This could blow a hole in your theory that it raises the cost of labor versus the current employers' payroll tax. Here you can find definitions of "gross income" and "cost of goods sold": Investopedia Here it is form the OPs links Herman Cain�s 999 plan: a misleading pitchBruce Bartlett, a former Reagan administration official who now calls himself an independent, also offered a critical examination this week on the New York Times Economix blog. He (as did Kleinbard) noted that the business tax allows for no deduction for wages, which he said "is likely to raise the cost of employing workers, even with abolition of the employers' share of the payroll tax." Business Flat Tax � 9% Gross income less all investments, all purchases from other businesses and all dividends paid to shareholders That's the list of "less some other costs" unless there's different information on different parts of Cain's website and wages are not included in that list nor are taxes paid to state and local govenments, nor interest on loans.
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Nathan Lewis:
Already Herman Cain is moving somewhat in this direction with his �999 Plan,� which he says is a combination of both �flat tax� and �fair tax� ideas.
I think it is still a rather rough proposal, but it is enough to start a discussion.
Voters realize that, by the time it went through Congress, some of the more problematic elements would be tweaked and fixed.
The important thing is that he would be getting the process started.
Maybe that�s why the pizza guy is rising in the polls?
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Cain has a long long way to go before any of this becomes viable.
Furthermore, the 999 plan would be morphed into something else - its just the nature of politics. In all likelihood, Pres. Cain would not see ANY of it get any traction. So there is no use to get all lathered up. However, there are some idiotic statements being made here by people who have no clue or are being misled by their worldly exposures.
The bottom line to all this is that Obama has to go and the Dems need to lose control of the Senate. Any Republican candidate is 1000 times better than our little Warlord.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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In the last election the liberal media sold John S McCain to the public as the neatest thing since a presliced loaf of bread, that's because he was liberal and true conservatives wouldn't vote for him. AFTER they made sure he had secured the nomination against the likes of Romney, they dumped him like a used condom. They then promoted Obama as the greatest canidate ever, dumping their assoc with Hilliary because they could not even begin to control her.Now the Liberal media has started again the process of directing the selection Herman Cain as the republican nominee, watch the media, watch what they are doing and saying. Its clear to me that the liberal MEDIA thinks it should pick the canidates who will run for their parties and who will win and who will lose.Why do they keep promoting blacks to be president who are no more or less qualified for the office than anyone else?Polls and pollsters can be directed to deliver whatever results are ordered by those footing the BILL for them. Herman Cain or whoever needs to be run thru the microscope just like all the canidates the media doesn't like( Newt ,Palin, etc).When the libdicktards of the media start saying nice things about canidates we all need to look at our hole cards. Way I see it Magnum Man
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I think you see it pretty good.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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So typical of you to play the class warfare card. F'kin' lie-beral .gov-shill.... Wait, wait! I've just decided that I SUPPORT the 9-9-9- tax plan, based on a report that I'll pay a lot less under this plan than under the current tax structure.
See: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/blog/financial-decoder/herman-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan-winners-and-losers/5365/?tag=col1;fd-banner-news
Story:
Headline "Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 Tax Plan: Winners and Losers"
"As GOP presidential hopeful Herman Cain touts his catchy 9-9-9 tax plan, one image comes to mind: an ad for a delicious-looking pizza that is nothing more than an empty promise. Sure, that image is mouth-watering, but when you open the box and take one bite, you�re sorely disappointed.
"This is an apt metaphor for the former CEO of Godfather�s Pizza, who is the flavor of the week in the GOP beauty contest. The plan is as simple as it sounds: blow up the current tax code and replace it with a 9 percent personal flat tax, a 9 percent corporate flat tax and a 9 percent national sales tax. Get it? 9-9-9! You can almost hear Ron Popeil voicing the ad �it slices, it dices, it�s Herman Cain�s 9-9-9 plan!�
"But like with many slick ads, the product doesn�t live up to the hype.
"The first problem is the plan is short on details, so economists are having a tough time crunching the numbers. That said, we can identify some losers out of the gate � the nearly 40 percent of Americans who do not pay income tax, would now pay 9 percent. Cain has said that there would his plan would protect those living below the poverty line, but he didn�t say how that would happen.
"How about the average worker? Cain has said these folks would make out, because �You have to start with the biggest tax cut a lot of Americans pay, which is the payroll tax, 15.3 percent,� he said. �That goes to 9 percent. That�s a 6 percentage point difference.� Except it isn�t, because workers only pay one-half of the payroll tax, or 7.65 percent. So 9 percent flat income tax rate would increase taxes by 1.35 percentage points, or more than 17 percent.
"Winners under Cain�s plan include higher earning taxpayers, who would see a great benefit under the 9-9-9 plan. The reason is that many of the wealthiest Americans pay the lion�s share of their taxes on income from investments and capital gains. Under Cain�s plan, those two taxes disappear. Small business owners would also score, because they could pay themselves with dividends (which would no longer be taxed) instead of wages."
Hell, let the poor pay for 2 unfunded wars and more of my share! I want mine!!!
I just posted an article from that liberal, soclailist "The Wall Street Journal MoneyWatch" site. I suppose that your consider the WSJ to be liberal and socialist (anyone that you differ with in your greater intellect is a ether a shill, liberal or socialist).
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I promise you he worked for the government, never saved, has zero retirement, and now needs "the rich" to pay for his lack of stewardship in the form of SS. Who are you addressing? I just happen to know a bit about the current tax system and how to evaluate Cain's plan. If my numbers are wrong, just show that's the case with your own numbers. Can you do that? I took a quick look at Cain's website, and the 999 plan taxes "gross income" less some other costs. If that term is used by Cain in its technical sense, then the costs of direct labor would be deductible as part of "cost of goods sold". Gross income is not the same as gross receipts. This could blow a hole in your theory that it raises the cost of labor versus the current employers' payroll tax. Here you can find definitions of "gross income" and "cost of goods sold": Investopedia Here it is form the OPs links Herman Cain�s 999 plan: a misleading pitchBruce Bartlett, a former Reagan administration official who now calls himself an independent, also offered a critical examination this week on the New York Times Economix blog. He (as did Kleinbard) noted that the business tax allows for no deduction for wages, which he said "is likely to raise the cost of employing workers, even with abolition of the employers' share of the payroll tax." Business Flat Tax � 9% Gross income less all investments, all purchases from other businesses and all dividends paid to shareholders That's the list of "less some other costs" unless there's different information on different parts of Cain's website and wages are not included in that list nor are taxes paid to state and local govenments, nor interest on loans. Cain's plan says that tax is applied against "gross income". Gross Income is calculated as gross receipts minus "cost of goods sold". COGS includes direct labor costs. Therefore, depending upon how loosely they are using the term "gross income", it may include a deduction for direct labor costs if they are using the technical term of "gross income".
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...Cain's plan says that tax is applied against "gross income". Gross Income is calculated as gross receipts minus "cost of goods sold". COGS includes direct labor costs.... This is correct. wiki: "Gross income in United States tax law is receipts and gains from all sources less cost of goods sold."
Last edited by pal; 10/15/11.
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
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Let's assume for a minute Cain wins and 999 becomes a reality. Which bank is the first to increase their credit card rebate program to 9%?
I can see the banks marketing departments scrambling hard should this happen. Just sayin'
Proud to be a true Sandlapper!!
Go Nats!!!!
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October 15, 2011
Cain the Tax-Code Killer
By Larry Kudlow
Herman Cain is the only GOP presidential candidate who wants to kill the tax code. That's right. Put a knife in it. Junk the entire system.
And people are cheering as he rises in the polls in his quest for the nomination.
Cain's 9-9-9 plan is not perfect.
But then again, the good should never be the enemy of the perfect.
Rep. Paul Ryan gives the plan a thumbs-up.
Supply-side mentor Art Laffer tells me it would be "far, far better than the current system."
And Chris Chocola, president of the free-market Club for Growth, calls it "a truly revolutionary tax reform that would amount to a massive job-creating tax cut on investments, savings and income."
[�]
For his part, Cain argues that the sales tax nine would pick up revenue and help to lower the rate for everybody, especially the middle class.
His economic adviser Rich Lowrie told me in a CNBC interview that the sales tax is a replacement tax, not an add-on tax like you'd find at the state level.
This is a key point. Lowrie said, "All we are doing is pulling out taxes that are invisible. We're cutting the rates. We're putting them back in at lower rates."
Lowrie is referring to the payroll tax, which in the Cain plan will go from 15 to 9 percent. That constitutes a net tax cut and a good deal more transparency regarding costs and prices that are embedded in the current code.
[...]
Liberals oppose the sales tax because they say its regressivity will hurt middle- and low-income people.
But the Cain plan partially deals with this by exempting everybody below the poverty line.
Cain also states that sales of existing goods would be exempt.
[...]
Nevertheless, a mammoth drop in marginal tax rates for individuals (35 to 9 percent, or 18 percent including the sales tax) and for businesses (also 35 to 9 percent) would supply an incredibly strong economy-wide growth incentive.
Lowrie argued further that the 9-9-9 plan will add $2 trillion to U.S. gross domestic product, create 6 million jobs, increase business investment by a third and lift wages by 10 percent. "And if you fold all that growth together," said Lowrie, "federal revenues go up by 15 percent."
[...]
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Cain's plan says that tax is applied against "gross income". Gross Income is calculated as gross receipts minus "cost of goods sold". COGS includes direct labor costs. Therefore, depending upon how loosely they are using the term "gross income", it may include a deduction for direct labor costs if they are using the technical term of "gross income". Good luck. I've basically given up correcting the same falsehoods over and over again. There are so many self professed accounting professionals spouting off so much blatantly WRONG information either because they are misinformed or ill intentioned, I just gave up. I'd have greater success explaining it to my 3rd grade son. Not because he's smarter (although he did just get his first report card - straight A's!  ) but because he doesn't have an agenda. I've spent my entire career in finance and accounting and while 999 has an item or two that can give rise to reaonsable requests for clarity, these broad based dismissals based on flat out fabrications simply show how either scared people are of actual change or more likely how selfish they are in their desire to continue a system which has worked perfectly to convince them that THEY are getting the better end of the deal and somebody else (generally the evil rich) are getting it stuck to them. If for no other reason than that, our current tax code is truly brilliant and will likely prevail. In the meantime, as I've said previously, I'll vote to correct course now while the impending impact with the glacier can be reduced to a glancing blow instead of the direct hit and sinking that is 100% guaranteed and looming if we stay the course.
NRA Lifer
"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare." - Mark Twain
"Everybody has principles... until they are an inconvenience." - Me
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This is an arguement about something that doesn't exist.
If Cain were elected and he did have his staff draft a bill and send it to congress it would be DOA. Bills from the administration are easy targets for congressmen from your own party, let alone the opposition. Its why Obama care is really Pelosi/Reid care.
What that means if such a bill were introduced it would be drafted primarily by the majority parties in congress and will no doubt be many hundred or thousand pages long. Exactly what types of income or products/services would taxable would be TBD. All Cain has done is throw out a rough idea.
The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
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This is an arguement about something that doesn't exist.
If Cain were elected and he did have his staff draft a bill and send it to congress it would be DOA. Bills from the administration are easy targets for congressmen from your own party, let alone the opposition. Its why Obama care is really Pelosi/Reid care.
What that means if such a bill were introduced it would be drafted primarily by the majority parties in congress and will no doubt be many hundred or thousand pages long. Exactly what types of income or products/services would taxable would be TBD. All Cain has done is throw out a rough idea. that's all true, as it related to "business as usual" in the current congressional situation. but the idea is that with Cain it might not be business as usual. he's not a career politician. i don't know of any other political office he's held. and therein lies a lot of the excitement. he seems to have no other masters, besides trying to do what he thinks is right for the country. if they send him a tax reform bill that's not to his liking, maybe he'll tear it up and tell him to go back to the drawing board. maybe not, but at least the perception that he will not be "more of the same" is there. maybe people disagree with him on what's right, but so far he seems like a huge breath of fresh air to me.
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So far I really like the upfront-in-your-face way that Herman is responding to the heavy incoming fire. He seems to thrive on it.
This morning I saw him turn his back to the crowd and ask them to look at the big imaginary bulleye painted there.
Gotta love it, but there is much more flack headed his way.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Lowrie is referring to the payroll tax, which in the Cain plan will go from 15 to 9 percent. That constitutes a net tax cut and a good deal more transparency regarding costs and prices that are embedded in the current code. Retired folks don't pay the payroll tax, so their taxes go from 0 to 9%, which is a huge increase for them. The sales tax also taxes existing savings on which the income tax has already been paid. That's like the government confiscating 9% of your savings and so-called conservatives seem ok with that. Liberals oppose the sales tax because they say its regressivity will hurt middle- and low-income people. But the Cain plan partially deals with this by exempting everybody below the poverty line. So every time some poor person buys something they have to show some government issued ID that identifies them as poor, is that it? What bureaucrat is going to be in charge of issued poor stamps? If a person is on the edge of qualifying and gets a 3% raise that puts them over the limit, they then pay the 9% tax. Seems like another dumb idea. Nevertheless, a mammoth drop in marginal tax rates for individuals (35 to 9 percent, or 18 percent including the sales tax) and for businesses (also 35 to 9 percent) would supply an incredibly strong economy-wide growth incentive. Few business pay at the tax table rates due to the many deductions in the current code. Under Cain's plan many of these deductions go away, which will actually increase the amount of tax paid. For example, people working at home can take a deduction for space they use exclusively for running their business. Nothing like that in Cain's plan. Landlords can deduct the depreciation of their rental property, but nothing like that in Cain's plan, so rents will have to go up to compensate. One reason the tax code is so complicated is because businesses are diverse and complicated. Cain's simpleton tax plan would increase taxes on many business and disrupt many more. The results would be devastating to the economy.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, retired people and poor people bare no responsibility for getting this country straightened out. Neither do black people, immigrants, or children. Nor businesses.
That, is why this country will fall.
Last edited by VAnimrod; 10/16/11.
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A sudden and huge change to an unproven idea has seldom been considered a "conservative" idea. Guess the political landscape is round like the earth and if you go far enough to the right you end up being on the left. Retired people have already met their responsibilities, and nationalizing 9% of their savings is unjust, but something true communists are ok with.
Under Cain's 999 plan here's one way to avoid paying any federal taxes on income.
A self-employed individual with a hearty income from a retail business buys a new home as rental property from a builder. Because the individual is buying the home for his business and because he's buying the home form a business there's no sales tax on the home. Also, because it's a purchase he can deduct the entire cost of the home form the retail business income he would normally pays 9% on. A year later he sells the house and even though the entire sale price is income (because he took a 100% deduction for the purchase price in the prior year), it's now a capital gain, which is tax free. Thus, the individual converted taxable income from his retail business into capital gains and avoided the 9% individual tax, and because he's not a corporation, he also avoids the 9% corporate tax. He can then buy and existing home, and because it's used property, he avoids the 9% sales tax. He ends up with a home he got with income he paid 0-0-0 tax on under Cain's 999 simpleton plan.
A simple tax plan makes it simple to avoid paying taxes. The government has to have revenues, so they either have to increase rates, or they have to add rules that make it harder to avoid paying taxes. Given the inventiveness of people wanting to avoid paying taxes is the main reason why the current code is so complicated. Part of that inventiveness is lobbying congress to add specific loopholes to the tax code, the other part is finding loopholes as I just demonstrated.
Part of Cain's Shtick is saying people would keep Congress from raising the rates, because the plan is so simple. You only need to check how state sales tax rates have increased over the years to know it's a phony claim. Welcome to 15-15-15 and lots of rules to close loopholes like I just described.
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Retired people have no less responsibilty to get under the load than anyone else. Your age doesn't exempt you from taxes.
Teach every child you meet the importance of forgiveness. It's our only hope of surviving their wrath once they realize just how badly we've screwed things up for them.
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