Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun

That depends on what you have to trade, but I doubt it.

The name Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war"), which was the motto of DWM.

The Luger was the German Navy (and a few years later became the German Army) sidearm. It was designed to kill, and with use of the tangent sighting system and stock it could be used to lay down suppressive fire at distances.

The 9MM Luger outperformed the .38 in revolvers of the timeperiod, so would we say the .38 was designed only to "wound?"

I think it is highly adviseable for anyone opting to carry a ccw to read some of the books from people with adequate resumes to write them, get actual hands on training on the topic and do as much live fire training as one can afford backed up with almost daily dry fire exercises so that their techniques and weapons platforms become entirely second nature.


I hope to never use my ccw in defense but if the time comes I believe I'm ready. I've sought training to get others insights as to what works for THEM, I've tried their methods in live fire drills and came up with techniques that work for ME. These have been reinforced with thousands of rounds of ammo and 10 times as much dry fire work. I have what I believe to be adequate confidence in my system to give my own ass and those with me a reasonable chance at survival.

For my preferences I use a 1911 LW Commander. Specifically I carry an original Kimber Pro CDP pre Schwartz safety. It's carried in either a Kramer horsehide IWB or a Brommeland IWB. It's light, fast into action and accurate in my hands. To say its second nature to me is an understatement.

I spent a lot of time researching ammo choices both online and in person. Due to my career I have daily interaction with LEO's (I'm not Leo) and I took the opportunity to ask what they were currently issued, what they had prior and their impressions. I am also fortunate enough to work with a local trauma team and have one of the most respected US trauma sytems virtually in my backyard. As such I have able to discuss with the trauma surgeons the damage done in particulate incidents and weighs that against the bullet used. I'm lucky that my Kimber dotes on both Hornady TAP and Winchester Ranger T both in 230gr +P loads as both are very common ammo for my local LEO's who carry both 40 and 45's.

I did all of the same research when I decided on a J-frame for summer carry when the 1911 isn't practical and my Glock 23 that I use for hiking/outdoor pursuits.

Again that is the steps I took and my thoughts on the topic. It's no way the end all be all or right for everyone, just for ME.

Long story short their is no substitute for training and dry fire work but popped primers tell the story of what works for every individual.

My favorite carry round in my Springfield 45 ACP Champion is the Speer 185 GR Gold Dot , because my pistol loves this round. I believe most Police Dept carry what is dictated by their dept and that is what they get the best deal on, price wise.

I just kinda skimmed this Kevin - I didn't read it all thoroughly but I gather the 1911 is (as usual) getting the most mentions.

I'll give you a somewhat different take.

As a lefty, stock 1911s don't work well, especially in terms of operating the safety and slide (I gather you can have one customized LH nowadays, but that's neither here nor there).

They're also pretty darn heavy.

I've chosen an H&K USP40 Compact in a Galco shoulder holster. It's a fully LH Variant 2 and quite light (even still the whole set-up is 3# with a spare magazine) I might have chosen a .45USP but they didn't make one at the time and Galco still doesn't make a LH holster for it now - so again that's neither here nor there.

I "rationalize" my choice thusly:

--it's LH (and modularly so)
--someone makes a comfortable and concealable LH shoulder rig for it
--it's light enough (and concealable enough) that I have it with me 90% or more of the time
--it's a large enough caliber with a large enough capacity to suit my comfort level
--it's proven super-reliable over the past 10 years
--it's super easy to strip and maintain
--and it's finish has proven to be pretty bulletproof over time

WTM45,

Reread my post. There's nothing in it about which round has caused more deaths. However, it is about creating a handgun & cartridge for combat.

WTM45, please point me in the direction of primary source documents such as Luger brothers' notes about why they created the 9MM. That way we'll both know for sure its intent. If it was intended to be a battle handgun round, it was not a very well researched choice.

Finally, how do you know for a fact how many deaths either a 9MM or a .45 ACP caused? To reach such a conclusion one would need access to autopsy reports and factual accounts about the circumstances causing death. Otherwise, it would be anecdotal, no?


Buena Suerte,

R

WTM45,

WWI was trench warfare battles. While I have studied it some years ago including its significant battles, I don't recall learning about the 9MM being used in actual combat conditions. It was a war that saw introduction of the machine gun as battle weapon that kept opposing soldiers out of no man's land, the area between trenches. Since it was impossible to kill soldiers with small arms who were ensconced within trenches, artillery was perfected, which accounted for most WWI fatalities. Then, of course, the French invented poison gas as a way to get Germans out of their trenches. So gas masks were invented. And the Germans responded by creating their own poison gas. So if handgun were used in WWI, they saw extremely limited duty, certainly not enough to reach a conclusion about their effectiveness.

Some British soldiers did have handguns. But I have no idea how often they were used and if they were used, conditions of their use. The rifle was the primary battle weapons of all soldiers.

While the 9MM was issued to the German navy during WWI, I know of no account of their actual use in battle. Do you?

Finally, a battle handgun is not designed to wound. It is a CQB weapon where an enemy's charge has to be stopped immediately lest he's able to inflict carnage on his enemy. This was the essence of developing the .45 ACP. While no handgun is as reliable as a rifle in terminating an enemy's charge, some battle handguns are much better than others.

WOW, rolling in the esoteric, eh boys?

Maybe this thread will produce a new noun: guessecdotal: where anecdotal is the product of a guess.

Don't lose your senses of humor lest I bust out some real jokes!


Buena Suerte,

R

The new 147 gr. 9mm ammo will out penetrate the 230 gr. .45 ACP ? In what ? It sure didn't when the FBI tested it against the .45 ACP Federal HydraShok after the Miami shootout.
When I say "didn't out penetrate," I don't mean testing medium. I'm refering to windshield glass and car doors with enough left to do real damage to the bad guy on the other side.
I find it interesting that the emphasis these days in 40 S&W ammo is away from the 180 gr. loads to the 150 gr. or even the 135 gr. stuff. I guess nobody is worried about having to exchange fire with a BG behind a car door or in a vehicle.
Me ? I like an edge if it doesn't cost too much. E

There is nothing wrong with guessing when it comes to selecting what to carry. I'd go so far as to say guessing is a key to making a good decision. You "guess" as to what the threat will be and carry what you "guess" will do the job in your hands. Then you learn how well it works for you.
Odviously, alot depends upon how well one is informed as to potential threats, how well one is familar with the capabilities of what he chooses, and his own abilities to use it.
The guy who picked the .22 for his CCW gun is not what alot of us would choose. But the guy knew very well what he could do with such a gun and in what situations having been there and done it. Odviously, he was very well informed and experienced as to what it would and would not do in his hands. My "guess" is that he had a pretty good idea as to what he believed he'd face and how he'd make his choice work. Frankly, I've got a hunch he's alot better at that sort of thing than I am.
I dunno about you guys but I'm always fascinated by anybody who has done the real thing. I want to learn all I can about his choice, about who he is, and what his experiences are. I never try to tell such people they have made bad choices. We might discuss the pros mand cons, and maybe we can help each other, but that's all I try to do.
I learned a long time ago that alot of so called professionals and experts, lack some pretty basic stuff that anyone with real experience knows.
For instance, when I signed up for my first handgun shooting course, the instructor, a local PD detective with alot of street experience, told us all to focus on the target which was 25 yds. away and to shoot one handed, target shooter style. To his credit, after trying to embarass me, he tried my method, focusing on the sights. Even he shot better and he was man enough to admit it.
But th bottom line is that in spite of his profession, he lack some pretty basic understandings. In the end, this is what we need to be aware of as well. E

I don't "carry." I HAVE, but 99+% of the time I don't.

I like my 1996 Sig p220 45acp (SA/DA). Light enough. Accurate enough (actually vey accurate). Always goes "bang." Points well for me (one and two handed, which is very important in my book, as if it is dark, I'm POINTING, not AIMING-I want the bullet to go instinctively where I'm pointing. At least that's my thought). I like the decocker and design feature to carry with loaded chamber (safety issues).

For personal protection around home, I like a revolver (357 mag). It has the above attributes (less the decocker), but it is simple enough for my wife to use (I'm not mocking her). I don't like semiautos for my wife. She handles a firearm well enough, but I think there is a greater chance for error with a semiauto by her in the event of a stressful situation. My greatest concern is either having her load/unload a magazine, and forgetting to rack the slide (either not loading it, or leaving it loaded). With a revolver, you open the cylinder for a positive inspection of loaded/unloaded condition. The revolver we have for that role is a 4" barreled Ruger GP100 with 140 grain hollowpoints.

With that said, for home personal protection, I prefer a breakopen shotgun. O/U or s/s. Same simplicity issue with revolver (open check loaded/unloaded), but easier to hit in a stressful situation. Pumps are great, but for a user not 100% familar with it (ie my wife), I feel you still have the same issue of loading/unloading and leaving an empty or full chamber when you least want one.

I think a semi-auto pistol for personal protection used by anyone less than totally familiarized with it, has a higher level of failure/glitch. Don't want that in a critical moment by my wife-so therefore the mid-size sa/da 357 revolver gets the nod-based on my assessment of criteria (wifw factor, simple, safe, powerful enough, fits both her/me well-enough).

I have never been in combat, nor have I been in a personal protection situation. I do feel 100% comfortable with any firearm I have, but I honestly don't practice at 3:30 am (drowsy and getting eyes focused-and maybe without my eyeglasses), in the dark, and in my boxers.

For that, I'd prefer my Citori over my Sig P220, Springfield 1911a1, Ruger gp100 or 45 Colt Redhawk. Of those pistols/revolvers just listed, I like my 5.5" barreled Colt Ruger Redhawk (a bigger thumper for me, and very pointable with Uncle Mike's combat grips). But that is not a "carry gun." I also have a Brittany Spaniel that is an excellent watch dog-great way to let potential "visitors" know they have been detected (and gives additional time for me/wife to respond.)

It all depends what your greatest need is and location (carry, home, multiple users, threat level etc). It's always a compromise (where you are, user(s) involved, threat).

So to me and my wife's requirements, key issues are: simplicity, safety, pointability/high chance for first shot connection in worse case/stress/dark conditions (which includes reliability, simplicity and accuracy requirements). Open-bored break-open shotguns fit the bill for "home base personal protection" criteria-but not exactly good for "carry." If it's 3 am, cold and I'm (or my wife) is bleary-eyed,heart pumping with the dog barking, I like our odds for a first shot hit with a shotgun.

I live in rural Maine. My biggest concern is a potential home invasion by idiots looking to fund drug habits. I don't pass through mean "downtowns." There ARE gangs in our area, but they are usually selling cookies for their local troop, and wear green dresses and berets.

Simplicity/safety, pointability/fit/hitting target, enough power.

Raisuli, if you knew anything of history and FACT you would know the 9MM Luger/Parabellum was developed to make the Luger an even better pistol for combat than its original chambering.
It was the intent of the design from the start, to be a battle round and was well researched and tested.
It has done much killing around the world in combat. I don't give a damn if you believe it or not.

The Luger platform was even submitted for US testing in .45ACP, since the US had decided on the caliber before the platform. We all know Browning's design won.

Glock 23 for me! High capacity firearms have their place in today's day and age! The need for more rounds when dealing with multiple assailants (criminals tend to run in pairs) and handguns not having the power of a shotgun or rifle the need to shoot an assailant multiple times is not uncommon. The fact that today we in the U.S. can face active shooter scenarios with one or more attackers. One more thing to consider for those against high capacity is the fact criminals have or can get body armor. I read one of the posts that sounded like anything more than 5 or 6 shots you would be dead? I don't agree with that mindset. In a gunfight you can never have enough rounds and thats not to say I agree with the spray and pray mentality but I would not be caught short with a 5 or 6 round handgun.

This has been an interesting thread, however, I have read very few responses addressing the needs of those in rural/ wilderness interface areas.
For those who proclaim revolvers are dead, try stopping a rabid critter. With the possible exceptions of the 45 ACP, or the 10mm-depending on the ammunition, autoloader cartridges are at best inadequate.
Park Service Protection Rangers relatively recently gave up their 357's for the 40 S&W, and when called upon to deal with tooth, fang, and claw they tend to use boatloads of ammo, where that was not the case when they carried GP100's loaded with 158 JSPs.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am less than comforted knowing that so many are prepared to simply fill the air with as much hot lead as possible.
For my purposes the revolver is not only very much alive, but very much preferred over urban choices. To the horror of many here, I will also admit that not only is the revolver king, the single action revolver continues in a prominent role. I have stood face to face with human threats who packed their hicap plastic fantastics, and who backed down before facing my thumbuster.
In the realm where one must concentrate on 4 legged AND two legged threats, the luxury of specialization in defensive arm evaporates. It won't matter if you have 15, 17, or 20 rounds, if your rounds are ineffective. In fact, if you attempt to use the specialized urban weapons in a rural critter encounter, you probably won't have the time to expend those 15+ rounds before you are transformed into lunch.
Rural defense often requires a big flash boom to be effective for reasons that urbanites rarely, if ever face. If you need to break up a dog fight, before it gets to the point of shredding area humans, a 357 fired into the dirt does wonders.
Rural guns are called upon for many situations that urban guns will never face, for extreme conditions of weather, where they have faced a baking by the sun, been blasted by dust, then full submergence in water, all on the same day, and still were called upon to work.
The simple mechanism of the single action lends itself quite well to this environment, and despite what just about everyone says, is easy to operate under stress, when exhausted, dirty, tired, or just pissed off.
Autoloaders, especially the newer designs, rarely fare well under these conditions.
Some things, however, are the same as urban encounters. For one, its always preferable to reach for a rifle, and for two, its always best to step aside, and let Daddy Bear have his space.

The Walker Colt was designed for combat, I think that predates the 1911 just a little bit.

Just thought I'd add that in here since someone's now mentioned single action revolvers.

maarty,

I don't think so. I believe the Walker Colt was a frontier sidearm.
Regardless it certainly ain't a battle weapon today.

Mak, you might want to consider scenarios in which you're likely to use a weapon to save your life. That way you'll have ammo with which to rethink your self-defense weapon.

There's a reason what you don't see cops carrying revolvers, let alone single action copies.


Buena Suerte,

R

It was designed at the request of a US military officer, and was intended for immediate combat duty against the Mexicans upon delivery of the first 1000 copies.
And that is where they went.

WTM45,

I am still waiting for you to tell me how you KNOW how many people have gone t*ts up after being capped with a 9MM Luger and how many gave up ghosts due to the .45 ACP. Did you rely on something you read in a gun magazine, or did you just make it up?

Trying to reason my way through your wild accusation, it would be impossible to know unless one perused autopsy reports, which I'd bet you haven't. So that leaves the FACT that you're willing to spread bullsugar in order to try to win an argument, which makes you awfully darn suspicious.

Next thing you're gunna write is that a 9MM Luger & not silver bullets is what really works to send Dracula back to his castle.


R