Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns What you REALLY need from a personal protection handgun

No one is arguing the "on paper" advantage the larger bullet has. What causes contention is if paper advantage is outweighed by the real world advantage. In many opinions, 17-19rds of "damn near as good" trumps 7-9rds of "maybe just a little better." This decision must be made by each individual user, and each weapon considered as a total package.

I'll carry the extra magazines to keep the better feel in my hand.............fat & wide gripped pistols don't horn me up.

If I'm going to a war & feel the need for high volume sustained fire, I'll bring my M4 & a [bleep] of 30 round mags.

This thread is (was) centered around personal protection, as in everyday carry usage, maybe even concealed carry (TIC), so in actuality, size & conceal-ability is a consideration.

Besides, I just don't like double stack mags.

YMMV & obviously does.

MM

I absolutely agree, each person must weight the different criteria they feel important. Myself, I will take a little inconvenience in carry to have a full size gun. I typically carry the same gun on and off duty, a 5" S&W M&P9 Pro. This is not for everyone, and I would never assume that my way is the only way. It is an answer to the question, but its not THE answer.

My needs and cost/benefit analysis are a bit different than the typical concealed carrier, and my experiences further dictate my choices. Each person's past is different, and will play a different role in the choices they make.

I was never intending to assault anyone's choice of gun. Any gun is better than none, and one you are confident in is always the best choice. Where I was having issues was with certain folks who are so misinformed, uneducated, or simply naive enough to believe that anything other than what THEY carry is crap, and that nay of the common calibers are really any better than the other.

If I have something that is reliable with decent ergonomics and concealability in a 2 lb or less package (loaded), in .38 Special or above, and I can pick the ammo and carry enough spare ammo in an appropriate manner, I'll manage. I've been through a lot of guns in the quest for "perfect," and I'm still not done, but they're all pretty good in a jam.

If you are a LEO, that approach makes some sense, depending on your off-duty carry mode. If I were a LEO, I'd probably opt for a hi-capacity double stack as my duty gun too, for very obvious & very good reason.

Also, as has been more or less said here numerous times, everyone's preference is just that.........personal preference, none really "right", none really "wrong".

I just get a kick out of some that have been reading too many SOF magazines & think they are going to an all out firefight every time they step out of the house.

Besides, what I may carry in my vehicle, may be considerably different than what I may carry on my person at any given time.

As a LEO, I am sure you can appreciate the value of the additional tools that you may have in your car.............

MM

As a non-LEO, if I make it to the car I'll just drive away...and maybe chase the bad guy around the parking lot a few times.

TFF But very smart; probably politically correct too, so you get extra point for that as well !!!!



Glad to see you back.............


MM

Me too. I mean if that�s what inspires you and makes you feel confident, then by all means. But to say that it�s needed by an armed C I V I L I A N just cracks me up.

I'm not sure that I see the relevance of the two deer example as the hunter is on the offense vs. being on the defense--were they attacking grizzlies, charging buffalo, adrenaline charged wild boar coming towards you I think that it would change the conclusion that you drew--but, it's really a moot point.

Jim Higginbotham had a handout at this year's tactical conference held at the US Shooting Academy called "Fire for Effect-Training for the close encounter of the worst kind" Bear with me as try to copy some of the content which seems relevant to this discussion:

"The following cases count ONLY the "Center Mass" hits before the subject ceased to be a threat. Note that many subjects were hit many more times--this is only C.O.M. hits

--San bernardino--50+ hits--9mm JHP (total hits 106, over 50 were considered lethal)

--Tulsa--13 hits-- .40 JHP including 5 to the heart*

--Memphis--11 hits--.40 JHP

--Louisville--11 hits-- .40 JHP

--NYC--14 hits--.223

--Rural KY--12 hits--.223 JSP*

--Afghanistan--7hits--5.56 NATO OTM JSP*

--Rural SC--5 hits--.357 Mag. JHP*

--Miami--2 hits--9mm JHP (both unsurvivable)*

--Louisiana--10 hits-- .357 Mag. JHP (incliding the head)*

--Location unknown--4 hits--.45 JHP (27 total hits, 4 of which were "Q" zone)*

*Subject injured of killed others after or while being shot"

"...It is true enough we should prepare ourselves for the most likely events, since to do otherwise would be to be unprepared for norm. The overwhelming majority of lethal encounters in which you are the intended victim, will occur at conversational ranges (well within 10 feet), will be over in two to three seconds, and will involve one or two assailants (about even odds on either) and will end without you having to fire a shot if you merely demonstrate you are armed and intend to fight back. That said, we run into exceptions to this rule regularly...Preparing for the vast majority of lethal encounters is simple and easy (be alert, have a gun, be ready to use it). Preparing for the minority of cases in which you have to shoot for your life is not quite that easy. While it is probably a waste of time, or at least a misallocation of time, to prepare for the truly arcane situation (the dreaded attack of the aliens or the human wave invasion from the Duchy of Fenwick) it is a good idea to spend some time preparing for the really difficult - but reasonable - situation....Over my years in law enforcement and military training I have watched several hundred lethal encounters at close range that were caught on film. What I saw in these is shocking and disturbing. Not only in the human sense of the loss of life and limb but disturbing as to the contrast between real life encounters and the assumptions that we make as trainers and students. Without going into great detail I will tell you that, while the outcomes were desirable for the good guys in the majority of cases, that outcome was decided by the bad guy. In less than 10% of those cases the attacker(s) were rendered incapable of taking lethal action within 5 seconds! The obvious conclusion here is that the good guy survived not because of his skill but because of the lack of skill or determination on the part of the attacker!"

Jim ran an inspiring, no BS class---when it was over he bottom lined it by advising that you carry the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately and "keep shooting until the target changes shape or catches on fire." :-)

Well, Kevin, I have to say again that that "need", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. One man's minimum armament might be another man's TEOTWAWKI load-out.

I have a good friend in FL, a retired NYPD cop who works as a reserve deputy for his local sheriff. Mike and I were out for lunch once, across the border in Georgia one day. The restaurant we were entering had a sign forbidding any "armed persons" from entering. Mike's wife hissed at him, "Mike! YOU'RE armed!"

He laughed and said, "Nah, I'm not armed. All I got is a J-frame." And he meant it!

This is not news, if you think about it. Those of us who are law-abiding do not initiate violence upon others, but rather we react to the violence brought down upon us by the lawless. This necessarily puts us "behind the curve". Training and luck are the only things that will allow you to get ahead of the curve and gain the advantage over your adversary.

As an armed citizen (non-LEO) your chance of surviving a deadly force encounter is greatly enhanced by being prepared in advance. Advance preparation consists of situational awareness and threat avoidance, primarily; having a reliable weapon and being able to use it effectively should be secondary at best, and really should be only your last resort.

Doc, I don't remember where I heard it, but one of the major trainers said that your survival in an armed confrontation depends upon 4 factors:
1. Your skill
2. Your luck
3. Your adversary's skill
4. Your adversary's luck
You only have the ability to influence one of those 4.

Similar to the earlier discussion regarding the lack of an empirical difference between various handgun cartridges, it's difficult to establish any link between training and successfully defending yourself with a handgun. If John Lott is to be believed, ordinary folks thwart bad guys some 2-million times per year.

If all those folks prove anything, it's the importance of having a gun and the will to use it. Everything else is guessing.

I think that that's very well stated JOG. I guess at that point logic and intellect play a role for a thinking person. Owning a guitar doesn't make me a rock-star anymore than owning a gun makes me a commando, regardless of what the video games connote. Unfortunately there is a world full of video-experienced wannbees in the world--occassionally we even get some here at the campfire.

That's just TFF

Been saying that for years.

The concealed carry permit holder is at a disadvantage from the beginning because the attacker all ways has to make the first move.

Gotta be able to read sign..............LOL

Just sayin'.

MM

you may be right, but if you make the first move you may go to jail.

Thank you, sir.