Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles 6.8 vs. 7.62x39 vs ???

Toying with getting a upper bigger than a 223 that can do deer duty. I think a person can get uppers for 7.62x39 and that seems to perform slightly better than 6.8, but may have feeding issues.
Anyone try the SKS round in a AR?
Anything else I should consider? Why are 30 rem AR uppers so expensive?

7.62x39 doesn't work well in a standard AR lower, the mags have to be straight to fit the magwell, this causes them not to feed properly. If you want a 30, go with the Blackout. I'm going with the 243LBC or maybe the 6mmWOA.

Blackout? who's is that?

Consider the 6.5 Grendel also.

Take a Knee is dead-on about the 7.62x39 in the AR. Really, that is all the 6.8SPC is when compared to the 7.62 x 39, a reliably feeding AR cartridge with AK performance.

6.5 Grendel is a fine cartridge also (I think if you really compare, 6.5 Grendel appears to have more bullet choices), I had fully intended to go that route when a 6.8 barrel & bolt dropped into my lap last week, but you may also want to look at Midway USA and type in "6.8 spc barrel" or "6.5 Grendel barrel". Either option will bring up barrel/bolt combos in several lengths at very reasonable prices, when fully considered, and if you shop ammo at Cheaperthan dirt or Graf, you will find that 6.8 &6.5 compare very favorable with other big-game cartridges, cost wise

The only problem with the 7.62X39 in an AR is the magazines. Find a good one and your problems are solved. C-Products actually had a good one but since they are no more I wouldn't know where to look.

(Just thinking out loud here)
I wonder if the 6.5 Grendel mags would feed 7.62X39 rounds.

Terry

I have an Armalite complete rifle in 7.62x39. Over a K handloads and about 400 Cheap steel crap without any feeding/firing issues so far.
I also have a Grendel, ballistics out to about 200 yards they are the same, after that the Grendel has the advantage. The problem I have with the 6.5 Grendel is the availability of Hunting bullets. The Nosler BT sucks and explodes on impact and the Barnes TTSX is a little hard and may not expand properly at Grendel velocities. If I had to pick one over the other for Hunting inside 200 yards I would take the X39. Plus you can feed the hell out of it with cheap ammo if you wish.

My nephew also has a 7.62x39 upper and has NEVER had an issue, granted he has not fired more than about 2500 rounds through it yet last time I checked. I"ve shot a bit of game including a yote with his, at a range I won't even print.... IE it works too.

what is wrong with the .223? Hunters should pay more attention to the bullet than the head stamp on the cartridge case.

Not a dang thing really. Pick the right projectile, limit the range and hit the right spot...... of course contrary to what I shouldn't probably say.... the 223 has been used by yours truly to almost 600 yards on whitetails with nary a failure. I dont' advocate it, but for picky knowledgable shooters.....

I've had great success with the .223 W/ 62gn TSX's and 60gn Partitions. That said, I feel a little hemmed in by distance and wind at times. My confidence level is nowhere near Rost495's. There is nothing wrong with the .223 for deer. That said there is nothing wrong with the Grendel, SPC or 7.62X39 either. I think all offer a slight advantage over the .223 for hunting.

I'll be using both this year. I've never been a one gun hunter.


Terry

Go into the deer hunting section and find a post with a title like "11 year old ????" and it shows a kid with a AR that shot a nice northern MN deer and I asked about the bullet & combination and the father described it and how he didn't have a blood trail for many yards. True it worked, but I want a little more performance and weight with a exit hole if I am going to buy a upper just for deer hunting.

Terry, I have the same 'affliction'

Indeed, a good 223 load is all you 'NEED' but a 6.5 is what I'd choose if I was starting from scratch.

It's not difficult. Good bullet - thru vitals = SUCCESS!!!

The 6.8 SPC is about as good as it gets in the AR-15 Platform. Never been a big fan of the Russian Round

I bought a Bushmaster 7.62x39 upper because I have a boatload of ammo that I can shoot out of it and my AK's, and I've always been intrigued by the idea. I also had great curiosity about accuracy in the AR/AK with the same ammo.

What the previous posters have said concerning feeding is correct, unless you can find good magazines. I bought 20 of the C Products mags from 44Mag, and they have all worked flawlessly. I hadn't heard that they had gone under, and am sorry to hear that they have.

The accuracy of 7.62x39 upper with Sako ball ammo is on the order of 2 MOA, and Russian ammo of any stripe-Wolf, Silver Bear etc. is twice+ that. Lot's of flyers. I'm sure that handloads with better components can improve both of those results substantially. They always do in my 5.56 uppers. I have some Barnes .311 TSX's that I really want to try on deer, but other things have gotten in the way of working up a good load.

So far the accuracy comparison between my AK's and the AR platform have borne out what has been said, i.e. that the tighter tolerances of the AR beat the AK IRT accuracy hands down. Since I haven't buried either my AR's or my AK's in mud and/or sand to test reliability, and have no intentions of doing so, I will say that the reliability of both is equal, at least on the range. How they would hold up at a shooting school, match, or other high volume venue I can't say, as I haven't used my AK for any of the above. My match AR has held up well, but in 5.56, not 7.62x39.

IMO, if you can find a reasonably priced upper, less than $500, in 7.62x39 with some good magazines, it might be worth the effort and cost. If not, then the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would be better options, but magazines might be an issue in both.

Like Rost said, the 5.56/.223 with a good bullet and proper placement will do the trick nicely, and Nosler makes a 60 gr Partition that is made for just that purpose. If deer hunting is the goal, that would probably be a better solution. If you don't handload, the money that you would have spent on the 7.62x39 (or other) upper and magazines might be spent more wisely on handloading equipment that will allow you to use your existing equipment better. If you already handload, that's the avenue I would take-unless you just want a 7.62x39 upper to have one.

I've shot more than a few deer that didnt' have a blood trail for many yards... it doesn't always have to do with the round.. couple of those have been 338 win mag, and one deer that went almost 150-200 yards and NEVER left a drop of blood that we ever found, even though we found the path of the bullet through the brush after the shot, was shot with a 50 bmg... so much for caliber thoughts eh?

DUnno about that one... could be argued by far... 6.5/264lbc types... ain't a shabby round though when it comes right down to it. It was a total waste of time as a combat round IMHO.

Not turning this into a "caliber selection" thread. My preferred AR gun would be a 308 AR-10, but I don't want to buy one and see what I can do with my un-mated AR15 lower I have.
My PREFEENCE is for a larger caliber round than 223 because not all shots are perfect and I like a little more weight for the angle shots that come up. I have a 223 AR I can try if I like, but I am looking for a reason for a different uppr on my other lower. I KNOW you can pop a deer with a 22 LR, but I feel more comfortable with a larger bullet and thats my preference as a consumer and hunter making humane shots.

it worked....Here is the 10 point I shot this year. He was in full rut, swollen neck, cut up from a fight, chasing a doe, he ran maybe 30 yards after the shot and left a blood trail that I could follow. Complete pass thru. The 11 year old's deer was a big 8 and he caught both shoulders, I am surprised that deer ran at all.

I am sticking with the 5.56 and either the 53 grain TSX or 62 grain TSX they work fine.

I shot a 10 point at 170 yards a few years ago with a 308 150gr NBT. If I didn't see him fall a 100 yards away, I would have thought I missed, no blood and he didn't do nothing but run with his tail up.
My cousin's wife dropped a 10 point this year with her 223 AR, 55gr V-max didn't even wiggle.

As stick says, it's all about the bullet. But I'll add, and where you place that bullet.

gentlemen,
This is not a "caliber selection doesn't matter" thread or a "its the indian not the arrow" thread.
I personally feel more comfortable shooting a bullet that is 100% heavier than than the typical 223 load because it fits my requirements and preference stated in my origional post.
I'm looking to you AR enthusiest to compare a 6.8 against the SKS round or if there is more choices out there since I last looked at AR options. Not being a handloader keeps me to off the shelf stuff and I object to buying really expensive premium bullets to make lighter designs work.
Respectfully yours,
Humdinger

your thread started 6.8 vs 7.62 x 39 vs ???,

I guess we know now that the vs ??? was anything other than the 5.56, typical I guess.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

In KS the minimum bullet size for deer is 24 cal.

that is a good point, maybe where he lives as well.

YOu have a lot bigger deer there than we do down here, but I"ve shot more than a few does that were around 150 pounds live weight, at give or take 300 yards with the 223 and 62tsx... Shot them facing me for tests. Never caught a bullet to this day. That says enough for me.

OTOH if I"m trophy hunting, where I don't want to have to pass any shot given, if the buck of a lifetime comes along, I won't be carrying a 223.... I'll be with you on rounds, but actually probably ahead of you as it won't be any smaller than my 7x300 wtby and probably more along the lines of 300 wtby or 338 Win... just in case. Even though I'm convinced the 223 would probably suffice.

Where I'm just meat hunting and if I get a shot I don't like, I can walk away from it, then while I have other rounds and take various guns out, the 223 is alwyas on the go to list along with a 6.8 necked to 6mm....

Getting the right answers often depends on asking the right questions...

Answer, there ain't a nickles worth of difference between all of them (6.8, 6.5, 7.62x39). Pick your poison and put a good bullet in the right spot.

TN the 223 is legal for Deer but in Virginia it must be 23 or larger

Good point! Cept for the price and availability of factory ammo. Grendel is non-existent on the shelves, 6.8 is pretty scares as well. 7.62x39 has the most off the self options for hunting rounds with the added attraction of cheap surplus or foreign ammo.

Hey - I resemble that remark! If you read my post you would have seen I wanted to something larger than 223....

Ding Ding Ding!
Someone caught it.
6.8 is one I can find though.

Never did do well with riddles... grin

Oh knowing him, he got it alright, he was just trying to tell you cool if you want it, but its not really needed typically.

But if not for wanting something just because, I guess I could have a much smaller safe....

6.8 is the answer for you.

And I'd personally take the 7x62x39 every last time. Just goes to show.....

Only reason though because of cheaper ammo available just because... I have no qualms with the 7.62 out to 300 yards either, I don't know that I'd push the 6.8 farther than that.

Kind of a wash in one way. And if a .224 bullet isn't big enough for some, why stop at .277 when .308 or .311 is there?

Of course my real opinion is if one had an upper for every caliber that the AR15 could handle, that would be close to enough to have fun with....375BR is still nagging my head...

Gentlemen,
New developments -
Found a copy of Shooting times that has articles on the 6.8 and the grendel and I am reading their research. As with any magazine article, you look in the advertisers index to see who they are being paid off this month.

On another note - I am preparing for a black friday run over to sportsmans guide retail location to get some items and I searched under "6.5" to see if they have some cheap ammo for my swede and they do ($19 for wolf goldline), but what shocked me is they have wolf goldline 6.5 grendel ammo for $15 and the remington 6.8 ammo is $27... I may have to do more research between the 6.5 versus 6.8 because I was leaning toward 6.8, but the grendel has a edge with potentially cheaper ammo... hmmm...

Thanks for the input on the 7.62 and it sounds hit & miss. Not too many oddballs like the Olympic rounds came out which amazed me.

I was deciding between the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel and went 6.8. The deciding factor for me was using a 16" barrel. From what I read, the 6.8 was designed for a short barrel and a longer barrel gives relatively little gain. If I was looking to use a longer barrel and shoot longer distance than I would have gone with the 6.5. My 6.8 upper has done the job so far.

The Wolf Grendel ammo sucks and is riddled with pressure and chambering issues. Don't base you new rifle/chamber on POS ammo.

He's talking about the 300 AAC Blackout, or the 7.62x35. A good choice for the handloader, a terrible one if you're not. I get about 2250-2300 fps with 125 grain Sierras which is about the same as the '39, a little less actually. Thing is, the '39 uses bullets that are .311 in diameter and there are not many choices in configuration or weight.

I make my own brass from .223's, it's very easy to do with a pipe cutter, case trimmer, and a full length sizer die. The upper I got is a CMMG with a 1-8 twist that I spent about $550 on and seems to be a very good unit so far. With 180 grain and up bullets you have the subsonic option available, but with mine anyway the only things that will not go thru the target sideways at 100 yards are Sierra Matchkings.

Good luck finding factory loads in this cartridge; all I've seen advertised are subs for about $1.25 a round. Since it's adoption by SAMMI this may change but who knows how long it will take for such ammo to appear.

I feel the .300 is a very good short to medium range cartridge that has the advantage of suppressed subsonic capability. I'd not try to take a shot at more than 300 yards on game with it.

Blah blah yak yak I seem to have gotten windy here sorry.

In my experience the 7.62X39 doesn't out perform the 6.8. I have shot both and I still have a 6.8 and have been rather impressed with its destructiveness for lack of a better term

The 6.8 SPC & the 7.62x39 pretty much fire a bullet at the same velocity as the venereable old 30-30, or thutty-thutty, as they say 'round here. Difference being that you are using pointed modern bullets. Do not let this dissuade you either way, as it is fine round and was once though of as the 'super-hot' cartridge of it's day, and I am sure that hundreds of thousands of deer taken with the thutty-thutty in the 100+ years of it's existence would stand as mute testimony to how useful it is.

The 6.8is about 200+ FPS faster than a 30-30


Manufacturer: Silver State Armory

Manufacturer Part No: SSA10072-110BARNES-TAC


Ballistic Coefficient: 0.323

Muzzle Velocity (fps): 2650

Muzzle Energy (ft-lb): 1717

100 Yards (inches): 2.9

200 Yards (inches): 0.0

300 Yards (inches): -9.6

Well not exactly, a 110gr bullet in the 6.8 @ 2650 isn't a fair comparison but let's look at a 125gr NBT at 2350fps only out of a 14" contender for the 30-30.

Like bullet weights and barrel lengths and there ain't a nickles difference. Seems like I've said that before...

liKE BULLET WIEGHTS? They aren't like cailbers so no let's not use a 125 grain and if you insist then I'll drop down to a lighter bullet in the 5.8 tht goes 3000 FPS

My point was let's use same weight bullets in both...

Saying the 110 gr bullet goes faster than a 150gr bullet is obvious? The 6.8 has nothing on either the 7.62x39 or the 30-30 except a good dose of advertising and those who want to believe.

Have you used one? I didn't think much of the 6.8 until I started using one. The same bullet weight in different calibers for comparison is apples to oranges.

I've used a 30-30 quite a bit as a kid and of course it did it's job. Never busted a 6.8 cap but I do have a buddy with one and he's not that impressed with it. I've no doubt it'll kill deer and pigs just like the 30-30 and there's nothing wrong with that but it's not a giant killer, it does however fit in an AR-15 magazine and that is a giant plus.

You made the comparison here "The 6.8is about 200+ FPS faster than a 30-30" with a 110gr bullet vs a 150? Talk about apples and oranges.

The 6.8 was designed around a 110/115 grain bullet the 30/30 was designed around 150/170 grain bullets I'd call that Apples to apples, but in you want to drop a wieght in the 30/30 in order to compare velocities then it is only fair toalso drop weight in the 6.8

Don't know what loads your buddy is shooting in his 6.8, but the size of wounds channels that I have havebeen impressive. The 30/30 will also create impressive wound damage even thou it is 200+ FPS slower than the 6.8

Hornady Leverlution ammo 140 gr 2465fps

1889 muzzle energy 850 @ 300 yards

+3" 100 yards -12.40" @300 yards

Not a nickles difference...

Todd at Noveske seems to think the 6.8 for hunting is a good deal more than the .223. Personally to me the trade off is just not there yet, but of course as all things firearm related it interests me. I am just not convinced that the difference is as real to the animal as it is in our minds. We humans "perceive" that if lung tissue is blown out the other side that the gun is far deadlier than the deer that dies in the same manner while producing a modest blood trail and that runs about the same distance when shot with a 5.56. I have no worries shooting an animal with my crossbow with a good broad head, it kills them just as well, so put me down as a bit skeptical but not closed on the 6.8 subject.

I was sceptical at first, but wanted to try one frist hand. I am glad that I did because I realy like mine

Anyone that thinks a 7.62x39 has the same performance as a 6.8spc, with same barrel length and bullet weight is smoking something.

We've been down this road before and the actual performance isn't even remotely close. Maybe at 50 yards, but that is like saying Bubba is just as strong as Mike Tyson......

at crushing a beer can in his eye socket after 10 beers.

About as close to an apples to apples comparison as you're going to get.

20%+- differences are pretty significant in the ballistics arena.

From the last time this silliness came up:

Interesting comment. Lets look at some load data for each.
Hornady #7.
110gr V-Max.
7.62x39 Max velocity=2600fps, 20 inch barrel.
6.8 SPC Max velocity=2600fps, 16 inch barrel.
Using Quickload and reducing the 20" x39 barrel to 16 inch we get 2516fps. Within 100fps.

Hornady #7
130gr SP
7.62x39 Max velocity=2400fps, 20 inch barrel.
6.8 SPC Max velocity=2300fps, 16 inch barrel.
Reducing the x39 barrel to 16 inches we get 2298fps, within 2fps.

Using a ballistic calculator, both rounds zeroed at 100 yards, 110gr V-Max.
100 yards.
7.62x39=0.00 inches, 2239fps, 1224fpe
6.8 SPC=0.00 inches, 2375fps, 1377fpe
200 yards.
7.62x39=-5.48 inches, 1977fps, 955fpe
6.8 SPC=-4.73 inches, 2161fps, 1141fpe

300 yards
7.62x39=-19.89 inches, 1735fps, 736fpe
6.8 SPC=-16.83 inches, 1959fps, 937fpe

130gr SP
100 yards
7.62x39=0.00 inches, 2039fps, 1015fpe
6.8 SPC=0.00 inches, 2110fps, 1087fpe

200 yards
7.62x39=-6.86 inches, 1795fps, 787fpe
6.8 SPC=-6.23 inches, 1928fps, 908fpe

300 yards
7.62x39=-24.75 inches, 1575fps, 606fpe
6.8 SPC=-21.96 inches, 1758fps, 755fpe.

Looks pretty close to me. 3 inch difference in drop at 300 yards, I would call that kinda close and I haven't smoked anything.

Your numbers are pure fantasy BS. I'd call it science fiction, but there's no science to what you threw out there.

Let's take this little nugget and rub the gold paint off of it...


There is no way in hell that a bullet, with a considerably lower BC, will only drop 10% less, traveling 13% slower.

You completely ignored BC and STILL came up 200fps shy.


Using the data you provided, but the actual BC for the 110gr .308 VMax, your drop is only off by oh...7 INCHES and your claimed FPS is off by 240 FPS.




Go find some actual tested data or better yet, actual factory data, as I provided, and we'll talk.

I did not ignore the BC. I used the BC listed in the Hornady manual.
.277, 110gr V-Max=.370
.308, 110gr V-Max=.275

.277, 130gr SP=.460
.308, 130gr SP=.295

I used Point Blank software and QuickTarget.

You are right about one thing, the Hornady data is more fiction that fact. A max load of AA 1680 (29.5gr) with 110gr bullet actually is closer to 2700fps out on an 18 inch barrel. My hunting load is 29.5gr 1680 with 110gr Barns TTSX, my test results are on par with Accurate Powders, just under 2700fps.


Steve,

We suggest the following.

Caliber: 7.62x39 Russian.

Barrel length: 18�

Powder: Accurate � 1680�.

Bullet weight: 110 grains.

Start load: 26.1 grains (ca 1325 Fps)

Maximum load: 29.5 grains (ca 2675 Fps) LD ca 100%.

NOTES:

It� important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.

1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM �START� LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.

2. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data.

Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot.Accurate.Powders
WesternPowdersInc.Miles City.Montana.
www.ramshot.com
www.accuratepowder.com

www.montanaxtreme.com
www.blackhorn209.com

Reduce the 18 inch barrel to 16 inches and we get 2613fps.

110gr V-max.
200 yards
7.62x39=-4.98 inches 2060fps
6.6 SPC=-4.73 inches 2161fps

300 yards
7.62x39=-18.10 inches 1810fps
6.8 SPC=-16.83 inches 1959fps
a difference of 1.27 inches.

You are right, actual tested data is better, shows the 7.62 x39 is even closer to the 6.8 than I thought.
Thanks.

Advertisng and those who want to believe...

Please note that in all this "silliness" I never said the 6.8 was not a good round, even said it was a good fit for an AR-15 but it is not a giant killer. Does anyone else remember Ruger advertising the 7.62x39 in it's Mini 30 as a modern day 30-30?

Like I said, not a nickles difference.

Got a 30-30 load to match this one?


...............................................MV.......300Yd Vel
6.8 SPC 85gr Barnes TSX TACTICAL 0.246- 3000FPS- 1708FPS 2.3- 0.0-7.8




http://www.ssarmory.com/ballistics.aspx

the 85 and 95 grain TSX loads in the 6.8 are the ones that are interesting.

They have proven to be good killers on game. The Military has found the 6.8 to be extremely effective to 400 yards or so but beyound 400 to 1000 the 6.5 Grendal has been more effective

I guess in some people's worlds, 20% differences aren't worth a nickel. I'm sure you would be fine with a 20% pay cut or a 20% increase on your mortgage.

You claimed:



That claim is pure garbage. If we're going to debate cartridges and ballistics, there has to be some intellectual honesty.

To claim a 25.9" drop at 300 yards is no different than a 17.9" drop at 300 yards or a 7.9" drop at 200 yards is "same same" as a 4.9" drop at 200 yards, defies common sense.

You go hold on a buck at 17.9" at 300 yards and when you see it hit 8" low in the dirt and the buck run off to the next county, you can tell us all about there being "no difference".

Show me a factory load pushing a 110 gr bullet in the 7.62x39 at 2675fps.

Or at minimum, show me a respected load manual showing that type of performance.

No one, not Accurate, not Hornady, not Hodgdons not a single ammunition manufacturer shows a load remotely close to what you're claiming, but we're supposed to use stated, known 6.8spc load specs, while comparing them to fantasy personal load claims?

Two can play this game...

Here's a load for the 6.8SPC listed in the 6.8spc FAQ on AR15.com:

18" WOA bbl 110gr VMax 30.5gr H322

2790fps

@300 yards:

2098fps 14.2" drop

Your claimed load @300yds:

1793fps 17.8" drop.

Even the hottest unproven 7.62x39 load claim the world has ever seen, falls short by a difference of 305 FPS and a 3.6" drop.

I know for a fact that shooting the 2 side by side (6.8 & 7.62X39) that the 6.8 creates the most damage Enough difference that I'll take it. The 6.8 shoots noticeable flatter as well

Flat is not an issue these days... I run my 308s way on out there... never been an issue.

Wind drift is the big issue. And I'll take less wind drift over more wind drift anyday if I'm being picky.

BTW whats better the 270 or the 06? Neither, its the 280... AI....grins

its a matter of preference or need and the trade offs have to be weighted to gain more power in the 6.8.

Me I do see more power in the 6.8 but all together as a package I relish cheap ammunition to practice with, interchangeability of parts, a very very well understood bullet delivery system, KISS as a way of life (me I would stick my 6.8mag in the 5.56 and miss the deer). Then I am happy with the ability of the 5.56 to kill with good bullets.

The 7.62 x 39 is yet another well known well understood system with tons of inexpensive practice ammunition, to me this weights heavily in a decision. Show me something I cannot kill with a 5.56 and a 62 grain TSX under 200 yards and then you have sold me on a 6.8!

Remember the 30-30 Accelerators?

LOL, you guys can skew numbers any way you like, hey don't forget Remingtons claim of 2850fps with a 115gr bullet, that'll make it look real good. Fact is I'll still do everything I want to do with my 223, when I need more I'll step up to the 308 Winchester. Same as the military, btw, I'd sure like to see some AAR's on the 6.8spc and 6.5 in combat. What was that, the 6.8 up to 400 yards and the 6.5 from there out to 1000 yards? And here I thought they used meters...

Oh yes here it is...

These threads are fun to read once (if any) useful information is extracted.

Oh it's all in fun, someone here has an avitar that reads "your favorite caliber sucks" pretty much sums it up.

Truth is with today's bullets, they all work.

I do like the 6.8 cause it combines all the best of these smaller-medium calibers into an AR-15 platform that runs well.

and....so it goes...

no problemo for me regards what folks hunt with, the only ones that get me are the "this is the only way to do it" folks...

Sorry, maybe you missed where I got my data from. If you read what you just quoted you will see that it is an email response from Johan Loubser head Ballistician at Accurate/Ramshot/Western Powders. Now before you get even more angry and call me a liar(again) maybe you should call him or send him an email and find out what his load data for the 110gr bullet in the 7.62x39 actually is. Then when your done, you can come back here and call him a liar also.

As for my other data, it comes straight from Hornady #7 page 538. Lists a max charge of AA 1680(28.5gr) running at 2600fps.

This is from Guns/Ammo note the 110gr bullet data. Cool Ain't it?


I found the link to this G&A data. Note they used a 23 inch barrel. Drop that to a 16 inch to compare to the 6.8 barrel tested and we come up with 2600fps. Right on with the 6.8/Hornady data.

link.
http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/the-762x39?page=2

Run a 125 BT in the x39 and some destructiveness should manifest...but still won't make it an AR round.

Ya gotta like the 85 TSX in the SPC at 3k....or the 55-62 TTSX in the same ballpark.

So...which one of these two would be the best for the AR...?

The logical best answer for this group is one lower 2 uppers.

It's almost 2012...so why not live it up a little!

TC

I am liking the 53TSX over 27 grains of TAC some more these days.

That load is not listed in Accurate's load manual or their online load data. That is the point. I also knew about the max load 2600fps in Hornady 7 as I have it right here, but here's the problem.....

That Hornady load is 2600fps IN A 20" BARREL. Oops...

So no, 2600fps in a 20" barrel is not close to 2675fps from an 18" barrel.

And again, feel free to use the email load you quoted. The AR15.com load I put up, beat it hands down.


There is no free lunch. The 7.62x39 is working at a SAAMI 10,000 psi disadvantage together with a BC disadvantage in any remotely close bullet comparisons. And the kicker is, the case capacities are almost identical, so there is no way for the 7.62x39 to make up for it's shortfalls without blowing way past SAAMI specs or having to move outside the AR magazine restraints. Either of which could be done with the 6.8spc as well, if we want to get crazy, so what's the point?

You can't bail 7 gallons of water with a 6 gallon bucket, it's that simple.

If you go back a READ my first posts on this nonsense you will see that I converted the 20 inch x39 barrel to 16 inches using QL. If you go back and READ you will also see that Johan's data for the x39/110gr bullet is a full grain more than Hornady's data, hence the increase in velocity with shorter barrel.
Not trying to be rude or condescending, just posting facts and comments that relate to this rather nasty comment.

Ok serious question for the 6.8 lovers, do you load to SAAMI specs on all calibers or load to pressure? I mean the 7.62x39 is 10,000psi behind the 6.8 at SAAMI specs but can the 6.8 be loaded safely to a higher pressure? I mean since it's onset, the 6.8 was hotrodded by even the mfgs. Did they get all the good out of it or is there more?

From where I sit, it seems like it's already at max and the 7.62x39 could use a 10,000psi boost as well, just like every other caliber we load for, searching for pressure signs.

nephew runs 125bts.... and though I fail to see what some folks get out of extra destructiveness, lets just say i've killed stuff on the far side of 500 with that combo and its never failed to kill what its pointed at if the shot is good. And we've killed quite a bit from 150 to about 225 over the years. caliber entry, dime to nickle size exit, blood trails, dead... can't ask for anymore than that IMHO

Most of the 2600fps+ (16"bbl) loads quoted around here for the 6.8spc are under SAAMI limit. Hornady and Hodgdons both show loads in that range and they are not going to list loads above SAAMI pressure limits.

The increases we have seen in the past couple years were from switching to the SPCII chamber which in combination with better twist rates, decreased pressure, theoretically leaving some room for an increase in powder.

So no, I would say that the 6.8spc has not been maxed out.

Again, there is only so much you can do with a case with equivalent case capacity in a larger caliber, especially when faced with magazine restraints.

There is no magic in physics. You simply cannot use the equivalent BC bullets for the 7.62x39, to match performance, that you can for the 6.8spc, without blowing past pressure limits.

The same reason the 6.8spc can't match the grendel at 600 yards is the same (and much more exaggerated) that you can't match the 6.8spc with the 7.62x39 at 300 yards, unless you go way past SAAMI limits. If your going to do that, then compare apples to apples and blow past SAAMI for the 6.8spc as well.

Or be honest and just note each cartridge for what it is.

"Or be honest and just note each cartridge for what it is"

If only everyone would...

If we are going to compare apples to apples, then lets load to same pressure. The SAAMI constraints are there for other reasons much like the 45-70 and other cartridges. Given a competent reloader, pressure can be increased for the 7.62x39 but you are correct you will never beat the B.C. of the 6.8.

But the commy round is loaded at 2300fps, think about this, military ball 308 is loaded at 2700fps, while it's relatively easy to get 2950fps out of it, what if we gave it the same boost we do the 308 while still retaing safe pressures like the Western powders loads mentioned earlier.

My whole point is still, that while all these numbers mean things, neither the 6.8 or the 7.62x39 will kill anything that much deader. And being fair with pressures minimizes alot of the 6.8's advantages.

And with the pressure problems we've seen in the 6.8, I'd think it's pretty close to max.

Being clumped in with the 30-30 power class ain't a bad thing, especially when it's in an AR-15.

and so we continue on with the current fad of "let's shoehorn every available diameter bullet into a case that will fire in a a somewhat standard AR-15 upper"!! Fun? Why yes! Interesting? of course! Practical??? Arguable/maybe/sometimes? Significantly better? Mostly No.

Do gun loony's need any sane reasons to do this? Hell no! That .50 beowolf is really interesting to me... 400 grain flat point 50 cal at 1800...Wow!

If we could shoe horn 308 win power into a standard AR15 upper with a standard magazine then that really would be different.

Widening the page out makes it difficult to follow. Just sayin'...

is the beowulf interesting? Must be since I drive one... grins....

I run 223 right at 60kpsi and have for years. The platform is very capable of handling that. The question becomes the bolt lugs possibly, but beyond that, I see no reason to limit pressures other than the vessel, this vessel is plenty strong. To not load them ALL to that same limit, leaves something on the table which could be a plus IMHO

After shooting the 6.8 and 7.62X39 I am much more impressed with the 6.8. IMHO the 6.8 is head and shoulders above the 223. I have zero experience with the 6.5 Grendel.

Did I say that I really like the 6.8

jwp, did you load the 7.62x39 with good bullets and decent pressure or stick with surplus ammo?

What did you load in the 223?

Just wondering.

I really like John Barness most recent lethality power formula:

This is some tough math so the 6.8 aficionado's may need to use a calculator.

"My more recent killing power formula is the 90/9/1: 90% is bullet placement, 9% is bullet performance, and 1% is headstamp."

always did wonder how my 32-20 killed every deer and pig/javelina it was ever aimed at.....

And still wondering how my civil war smoothbore is going to kill with a 19ga round ball and 60 of 2F, but something tells me it probably will do fine....

They can't sell marksmanship...

I'm planning a Cape Buffalo safari in a few months. You can use my .22 Hornet. You up for it?

I know its not directed at me, but I'd have zero qualms on a buff with a 22 hornet. Let me pick the bullet and then allow me to choose my shot, I'd be just fine and meat on the ground.

Just like using a 223 OR a 6.8, neither are magic or powerful enough that you can take any shot presented.

Of course it doesn't hurt that I'm nuts enough the 2 things I have on my list that I'll never be able to afford are a buff with a bow and a brownie with a bow. I'd like an nyala, but don't care how I'd get that for some reason. And of course Africa is the last place I'll spend money if I had it, prefering to hunt and support our game in the US instead. But if I hit it big ever... I could manage Africa then...