Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns '86 miami shootout

Cumminscowboy � You should read the FBI�s take on it: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You can debate every aspect of this shooting, and many very knowledgeable people on the subject have come to the same conclusion as you. But there have been many knowledgeable people who have come to the conclusion that it does matter. Some say the FBI used the Silvertip as the �scapegoat�. I think the FBI could have deflected some heat, but to just dismiss the fact that the FBI made a huge fundamental change in ammunition selection based on this incident, I think that would be an error in judgment. Like them or not, when the FBI does something they tend to be rather thorough.

Penetration is king, simple as that. But all must be balanced because too much penetration can be just as much of a liability as too little. You need to also consider that the FBI�s criteria is specifically for law enforcement, and some cartridges deemed sufficient for law enforcement could prove to have too much penetration for other applications such as home defense or concealed carry on the street. Since law enforcement often has to shoot through intermediate barriers, and citizens are rarely involved in a shooting that isn�t face to face, should make you think.

As to 9mm vs. .40, I�ve come to the conclusion that either cartridge will get the job done; so pick the one that blows your skirt up. Once you have made the choice, match the ammunition (mostly by weight) to the job. Let�s assume you�re limiting your choices to JHP�s made by major reputable manufacturers.

For law enforcement I would recommend bullet weights of:
9mm: 147
.40: 180
.45: 230

For concealed carry on the street:
9mm: 124-147
.40: 155-180
.45: 200-230

For home defense
9mm: 115-124
.40: 135-155
.45: 185-200

Now consider these are just rough recommendations based on �typical� scenarios. Each person needs to evaluate their threat level and the scenarios they are likely to encounter. I�m sure many would dispute my rule of thumb for bullet weight, but this is MY rule of thumb, not theirs.

Yup, don't prepare for combat with only a pistol. As COL Cooper said, if he really expected trouble, he'd have a rifle. A Steyr Scout loaded with 110gr. TAP would have ended that affair rather quickly.

Sadly, you have forgotten everything Raisuli taught us.

I consider the Steyr Scout to be a lousy combat rifle. If I'm facing someone armed with a semi-auto rifle, I want one also. With a manual action rifle you're easily suppressed, then killed. The manual action combat rifle in today's world of wide use of semi-autos is folly IMO. I just cant count how many times in force on force training I've seen the guy with a manual action rifle first suppressed through high volume fire, then take out once the initiative has been gained.

Agree on preferring an auto to the Scout....but...I'd also prefer the Scout to the revolvers used (especially as an addition to).

as to the steyr scout vs a semi auto, heck no. I remember playing a game of paintball against guys armed with semi autos vs me and others armed with pump action paint ball guns. WOW, it took all of a minute to see the advantage first hand of rate of fire. you can pin someone down with a semi auto, they can't move or even peak their head out. its a huge advantage.

KG, interested in why you pick lighter weight 9mm ammo for home defense but recommend heavier stuff for CCW, wouldn't the lighter ammo in a CCW gun make for an easier carried gun??

+1 Kevingibson

I've watched the FBI analysis of this and their views on changing weapons.

I think that the real issue was the the FBI was going up against a pair of hard men that would and could shoot. The bad guys ID'ed the FBI and had enough time to gear up mentally for the fight and took the initiative in the opening engagement. Bad luck and bad planning(lack of rifles) contributed to the FBI's losses.

Fortunately most people LE comes up against are usually not competent or willing to take it to the max like these two individuals. I'm not insulting LE but the facts are facts.

With that being said I fear what may popup in the not so distant future with terrorists, cartels, and military trained gang bangers in our country.

I don�t much have this issue in my home, but for most homes, walls are very thin. The 115 grain is all but guaranteed to stop inside your target provided the hollow point opens up. You can say the same for the 124, but my choice for the 115 is just hedging that bet a little further. In a home defense scenario, you just can�t afford to miss. Most anything you miss with will not only penetrate the wall, but is quite likely to penetrate much of the entire dwelling. If you live in a suburban area, or an apartment, this is a serious concern. For incidents where hardened barriers an issue (and there are precious few hardened barriers in a house) the 115 has sufficient penetration for anything you need to punch, yet is very unlikely to completely perforate anything but a superficial hit.

Again, just MY preference; others may differ.

I think training is Key.


The 10mm may have been too much recoil for the shooters.

but

If they trained with it (the 10mm), things may have worked out very differently.



IMO

.

For Home Defense:

12 or 20 ga. Shotgun w/ Buckshot

My rule of thumb.

YMMV

MM

"You don�t have to be fast or the most accurate, you have to be willing. I found out early in life that most men aren�t willing. They draw a breath or blink an eye. I won�t." - J. B. Books (paraphrased)

ColeYounger and jwp475, I was mistaken. I did confirm that ALL the agents at that dust-up were carrying ISSUED 158 gr +P SWCHP. I have a copy of my notes taken at a meeting at which one of the agents spoke to the effect that "some" of the agents/special agents on that task force may have "sometimes" carried unauthorized/non-issued 357 Mag ammo, but officially none of them had 357 Mag ammunition in their revolvers that day.



OK, let's eliminate the double negative: are you saying that the ammunition used that day exhibited inadequate penetration?

If so, which round(s) do speak of? SOME of the bullets fired by FBI agents didn't do a very good job, but others worked pretty well.

If we review the autopsy photos and xrays in the Anderson book, which you posted earlier, we see that Agent Dove's 115 gr Silvertip JHP penetrated at least 14 inches of flesh on its path through Platt's right upper arm and the right side of his chest. The 115 gr STHP fired by Orrantia or Risner from across the street that shattered Platt's radius and rendered his right thumb useless certainly didn't need to penetrate any deeper than it did. The 6 158 gr SWCHP's from Mireles' revolver fired as he advanced on the dying Platt didn't penetrate very well, but then, they really didn't need to.

jwp, it's refreshing to come across another person who's read Dr. Anderson's book. Considering how often people want to talk about this case, you'd think more people would have bought and read it.

I've discussed the case at length, and Dove's shot in particular, with Dr. Anderson and other trauma specialists. There is a general consensus that Platt probably wouldn't have died any quicker with any other shot in the chest.

As far as that goes, most of us don't believe he lived 4.5 minutes after sustaining that wound. The timeline of the gunfight is not by any means certain, as Dr. Anderson points out in his book. We only have estimates from the participants, and given the nature of human physiology, it's most likely that Platt died less than 3 minutes after receiving the wound that killed him, and possibly less than 2 minutes. Two minutes was more than enough time, however, for the events we know to have happened to happen.

Contrary to what many people think, the common impression that a handgun bullet shot in the heart will kill faster than a shot into the Great Vessels (the aorta, vena cava, and pulmonary artery/veins) is false. Handgun bullets, being low energy projectiles, will "pencil through" the tough, fibrous muscle of the ventricles. A ventricular heart wound doesn't bleed very fast at all. I have seen patients with ventricular gunshot wounds survive more than once. A GSW that transects the aorta or atria will cause much more rapid exsanguination, the pulmonary arteries somewhat less rapid.

We know that Platt had something in the order of 1.5 liters of blood in his right thoracic cavity on autopsy. Transection of the pulmonary artery and vein would result in that level of blood loss in less than 3 minutes easily. That, plus the large quantity of blood he lost from his other wounds (Anderson's book shows that crime scene photos, which look like somebody splashed a couple of buckets of pig's blood around a movie set, and ALL of it was Platt's) suggests a less determined and physically conditioned person, in other words an average normal person, would have ceased to offer violence in less than a minute. Not so Platt, who was superbly trained, conditioned, and utterly unafraid to die fighting.

Very true, Jim. Look at the four cops killed in Oakland 2 years ago, and the four cops killed in Phillie shortly after that. In both cases the offender knew he was going to kill cops until they killed him. It took a while for the cops to tighten up the OODA loop.

Kevin, with all due respect, the idea that you are going to get effective, experienced cops to practice "minimum force" as defined by those w/o experience, "ain't goin to happen." What will happen is you'll get cops that get killed and job either won't get done or the cost will be unacceptable. Been there and done that too many times. And it's still going on.
The FBI "learned" the hard way. Have you forgotten that their agents weren't even allowed to carry guns when it was first formed ? Have you forgotten that after the heavy criminal types were reduced significantly, the real gun fighting FBI agents were forced out of the FBI way back before WWII ?
It's much the same with alot of agencies. There are exceptions but very few.
Got any idea why the cops in the big, liberal cities have first class lawyers standing by for their members ? And very strong unions ? Same crap.
Ever wonder why the gun and CCW movement is so popular and getting even more so ? Because the people that live in many places don't feel safe. In spite of the phony crime statistics, and you wouldn't believe how bad they are, the truth comes out. Our cops aren't getting the job done. We aren't near as safe as many political types want us to believe.
All the training and the best equipment in the world won't take the place of the proper attitude. Our cops have been fed this PC nonsense for so long alot of it rubs off even here. For example, the concerns about over penetration. You want to worry about that remote possibility, fine. I want to win if I must fight. Winners who give away their advantages often loose. E

It's amazing just how much surface area a human's blood can cover from a major artery leakage.

Went into a house once upon a time where the victim had been shot on the inside of the thigh just above the knee with a shotgun blowing up the femoral artery............there was a pool of blood five feet or so in diameter & it looked like it was a 1/2" thick, just all thick on gooy - helluva a sight.

MM

I hear ya, but my observations from many years on the street is that cops have to let the other guy dictate the level of force.

Walked into a maternity call once and the entire floor of a small living room was covered in blood (placenta abruptio), woman was unconscious; I was amazed there was a pulse, but there was. Same thing, looked a �� thick and gooey. Nasty call. Oh, mom and baby both made it; that shocked me even more.