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pwnage!

My daughter just returned from visiting New Zealand and naturally brought me some of their current gun rags and i see that the Baikal double rifles in 30-06 and 45-70 are listed for sale for $1595 NZ - which is around $900 US.

I see the Remington's for the same price here. Is consensus to stay clear them or has anyone here had one and been happy with it?

I've not heard any updates that would change my opinion of them!

In France the Baikal can be bought for around 850 euros sometimes less, Remington distributor don't import the version made for the US market. As all russian or soviet made guns finish is a bit crude but they perform flawlessly, are precise for the job they are made for. With a little money and a good gunsmith (if you're not used to gunsmithing)you will have a real cost effective rifle. In 9,3x74R they can go for most game on earth providing the right bullet at the right place. If you like 45-70 express the Italian firm Rizzini had send me one over under to test. Will get it next week. They prepare a side by side for september in 45-70, 405 and 450-400 but will be considerably more expensive.....
Dom

I have enjoyed the posts on this and other forums on the Baikal SPR22 Double rifle recently imported by EAA and then Remington. It remains to be seen who will pick up the line if Remington has really dropped their importation. EAA has told me they will import them in the future.
The subject of the worth and utility of the SPR22s has been hotly debated. Many, as the Aussie gentleman above, report great success with the Baikal IZH-94 Express O/U rifle in 9.3X74R. Others, especially many who have not handled or even seen the SPR22, express loathing and disdain for any Russian Double Rifle "junk". It reminds me of our early thoughts on the AK 47 series battle rifles. Again,we thought them junk,until our men encountered them in combat and the laughing stopped.
I have bought two SPR22s in the last two months, one each in 30-06 and 45-70. Like many others, I had a low opinion of Baikal products, never having owned or even handled one. But when I saw one advertised in GunsAmerica, I acted quickly to buy one at $935, and liked the feel and look of it so much I follwed up with a $700 purchase of an '06 two weeks later. Handling and shooting them has been fascinating. Certainly I am not done with the shooting part, but early results say I'll have little trouble in reasonable point-of-aim regulation for both.
I haven't settled on a given load for the '06 yet. Probably a Remington factory 180 grain load that sells at the big boxes on sale for around $15 will be just the ticket. While I like the '06, I would much have preferred it be chambered in 7.62X54R, the Russian battle cartridge. That one is rimmed, powerful and probably more available cheaply than the '06 at present. My other thought is to rechamber to .30R Blaser. It has the same operating pressures, exotic, and made to clean up an '06 chamber. Of course, other than the fact I like rimmed cartridges for a double rifle, there is nothing wrong with the '06.
Now, as to the 45-70. Boy, this one has evoked quite a firestorm of arguments. No, it is not possible to make a 45-70 into a 458 Win Mag, nor a .450 Nitro, literally or figuritively. The barrels seem far too small for the Nitro and only a madman would try to rechamber to .458 Mag. But if you do, write me with results, please. Obviously the case capacity of the 45-70 precludes loading it to anywhere near the potency of the other two cartridges, although it is no toy. (I'm thinking of rechamber to 45-90.)
What about the reports by some of this defect or that of the SPR22s right out-of-the-box? Except for a well reported failure to stay open fully, to easily access loading, the gritty triggers, medium level of finish, and less than stellar front sight, the rest of the rifles seem pretty satisfactory. Poor triggers? I have 5 Weatherbys, all with triggers no better. Match grade trigger on a Kimber M84? Mine wasn't out of the box, nor was it after a trip back to the factory. A Ruger M77 whose extractor slipped past the fired case after firing, since new? They did fix it, but again, not perfect when sold. Raceways and feed ramps so rough the rifle barely feeds rounds? My $2000 Ruger Magnum .416 Rigby suffered that fate. I cleaned it up. Frankly, these are examples which are way too frequent in expensive American rifles as well. Criticising inexpensive Baikals for these weaknesses is valid, but it is hardly exclusive to them.
Lets reflect briefly on the one thing most debated on the forums; what is the strength of the SPR22 in 45-70 and what is the safe level of pressure of the ammo fired in it? We start with a great advantage: the SPR22 is chambered for the 30-06. While the barrel markings and owner's manual state SAAMI ammo only is to be used in the rifle, that frankly gives little guidance. Surely one can feel safe in firing the Hornady 325 grain/2050 fps Leverevolution load as I do, as it is loaded to SAAMI compliant pressures. But what about moving into Marlin M95 levels, level 2 45-70?
We start that answer with the fact that Marlin's owner's manuals also warn about using only SAAMI compliant loads in the M95. Yet, they use the same action in the 45-70 as in the .450 Marlin and .444 Marlin, both loaded to far higher pressures than 45-70 SAAMI compliant loads. Experience has, of course, demonstrated that 40,000 psi loads do not strain a Marlin M95, regardless of what the owner's manual says, a fact admitted by a Marlin Vice-President in an interview some years back. Has the owner's manual been changed to reflect what we all know and Marlin has admitted? Nope.
There are many babblings in the hinterlands that the SPR22 in 45-70 is safe only with "Trapdoor" loads, meaning the 1873 model from Springfield. I can only assume this means that these chaps believe the SPR22 and Trapdoor actions are equal in strength. Fine, all Americans have a right to an opinion, even an uninformed one. I suggest to this crowd that they rebarrel a Trapdoor to 30-06 Springfield, fire it with a lanyard cord remotely and report on their results. It should be interesting.
By far the finest discussion I have found on this subject is on kifaruforums.net. It is a lengthy and extremely interesting discussion on the relevent considerations of the safe pressures for the 45-70 SPR22.
I'm so taken by the SXS Baikals that I have just ordered a IZH-94 O/U Express rifle in 30-06. I would far more preferred it in 9.3X74R, which regrettably is not imported here, although made in Russia. The day it is available, I'm the first in line, as I would be for the same caliber in the SPR22 SXS.
In my opinion and experience, well fortified by the opinions of others, the double barrel Baikals are interesting rifles, at a bargain price, generally suited for their purpose. They are not a Rigby or H&H double rifle costing 50-100 times more, or even a Heym, Blaser, Krieghoff or Merkel costing 10-12 times more, or even the lower cost Chapuis at 5-6 times more. I simply chose to have the 100 firearms $100,000 will buy me instead of one Westley Richards. To each his own.
I DO NOT ADVOCATE YOU FIRE ANY LOAD IN A RIFLE CONTRARY TO THE OWNER'S MANUAL CAUTIONS, NOR DO I RECOMMEND YOU REBARREL THE TRAPDOOR TO 30-06, AND IF YOU DO, DO NOT FIRE IT. OTHER THAN THAT, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. (And don't forget, if you rechamber the 45-70 to .458 win Mag, please report results. Heh, heh....)
MartyBoy.

Great Topic and pics. Just some more info, Remington has dropped most of there international arms. Eaa has picked up most of them including the doulbles and what was the 798's. They selling them under a sister company called US sporting goods. There are Three different grades so to speak of the doubles. The 06 and 45-70 in the cheap line. The medium grade and high grade, which has the triditional reagulation, in 375 H&H, 45-70, 416 rigby, 450NE, 470NE, 500NE, 600NE and a few other calibers. The medium has a blue reciever and the high has a silver reciever. These are all side by sides. I didn't see the o/u in the catalog. 358mt

I will admit that my sample size of 1 is not large enough to be statistically representative of all IZH-94s, but it was such a POS that I felt that I needed to warn others to think x2 before spending their hard earned $$ on such a bad firearm. I'm glad that your SxS Russian doubles are working well for you and hope that they continue to do so.

Until the Russians can get a handle on the QC of their sporting firearms, I think that I'll spend my $$ elsewhere.

Jeff

I am thinking of buying a Remington SPR22 double rifle but I don't know how practical it is for general purpose hunting. The game in question is wild pigs. I am buying a Savage 30-06 or 7mm also but don't know if the double rifle is worth the price due to its use as a brush or swing gun. What is the point of aim by design?

Thoughts? Perspectives?

My 45-70 shoots very well with factory Remington Xpress 405gr. bullets that are loaded to low pressures. Tried some hotter handloads and the regulation went all to hell. Other than that mine is fitted well, works good, and actually has a fine figured piece of wood in the stock. I think it's a cool rifle, just keep the pressures down in it.

Thanks for the info. What game did you use it for? How was the accuracy?

and, in my mind, it should stay there too...

had a bad experience with a baikal o/u 20ga. bird gun. bent ejectors. first trip out, inclusive of a good spraying of remoil first. remington ammo. gave the double away. good riddance. don't have to listen to someone griping about the gun i 'traded' 'em.

$400 worth of 'experience'.

wouldn't buy a hammer made by 'baikal'. ever.

-tom

Any other new info. on these rifles. I just ordered a new one in 45-70 it is not the Remington branded. EAA is importing them again. Thanks

As it written before they are utilitarian doubles but for the price you can spend some money to improve a bit the fitting.
About russian QC (i'm not from Russia, it seems to me, reading post on this fantastic forum, that Remington, Marlin and even Kimber (i own some) have also very big QC problems today. Not my saying but of lot of campers...

Good Thanksgiving to you
Dom