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They were carring the weapons that they were allowed to carry. What eles were they supposed to do?



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Putting aside the obvious tactical mistakes and the debate over weaponry, the reason that Platt performed as well as he did, after taking serious hits, as compared to the FBI agents, was better training.

Despite a lot of hype about it being a Butch & Sundance type go out with a bang / suicide by cop deal, Platt and Matix's main objective was to escape, and all their actions during the firefight support this.

Platt's military training was to focus on his objective and to eliminate any threats that interfered with that objective. He did this in the way he was trained, by aggressively engaging those threats, even after he had been seriously injured.

Platt's charge, where he kill Grogan & Dove, and wounded Hanlon and McNeil occurred after after his fatal wounding, and after the wound that disabled his right hand. Still, he improvised a way to continue firing his weapon and achieved his objective, which was eliminating the return fire that was preventing his escape. Matix, though receiving a devastating head wound and a potentially fatal neck/chest wound still had enough situational awareness to realize that Platt had taken Grogans vehicle and join him there.

On the other side though, we have Grogan, Dove, & Hanlon who failed to take any type of action to stop Platt after he gained a tactical advantage. What happed to Grogan, as I mentioned earlier, is the big mystery to me, but we also have Hanlon, who was wounded in the hand and had an empty weapon, but otherwise mobile, and Dove, who was unwounded but had a disabled firearm, both of whom basically let Platt walk up and shoot them execution style.

This is where the FBI had a major training failure. The agents all performed pretty well in the firefight as far as their training went, but when the situation escalated outside the parameters of their training (after they had received wounds/been disarmed), with the exception of Mireles, they failed to perform at all. No attempt to escape, no attempt to physically over power the partially disabled Platt, they just passively allowed themselves to be shot. That's the training problem that the FBI needed to address after the Miami shootout.

I have no idea if they ever did or not.


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Originally Posted by Gadfly

This is where the FBI had a major training failure. The agents all performed pretty well in the firefight as far as their training went, but when the situation escalated outside the parameters of their training (after they had received wounds/been disarmed), with the exception of Mireles, they failed to perform at all. No attempt to escape, no attempt to physically over power the partially disabled Platt, they just passively allowed themselves to be shot. That's the training problem that the FBI needed to address after the Miami shootout.

I have no idea if they ever did or not.


Can't speak for the Quantico crowd but Bill Rodgers certainly addressed these issues.

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Originally Posted by Gadfly
Putting aside the obvious tactical mistakes and the debate over weaponry, the reason that Platt performed as well as he did, after taking serious hits, as compared to the FBI agents, was better training.

Despite a lot of hype about it being a Butch & Sundance type go out with a bang / suicide by cop deal, Platt and Matix's main objective was to escape, and all their actions during the firefight support this.

Platt's military training was to focus on his objective and to eliminate any threats that interfered with that objective. He did this in the way he was trained, by aggressively engaging those threats, even after he had been seriously injured.

Platt's charge, where he kill Grogan & Dove, and wounded Hanlon and McNeil occurred after after his fatal wounding, and after the wound that disabled his right hand. Still, he improvised a way to continue firing his weapon and achieved his objective, which was eliminating the return fire that was preventing his escape. Matix, though receiving a devastating head wound and a potentially fatal neck/chest wound still had enough situational awareness to realize that Platt had taken Grogans vehicle and join him there.

On the other side though, we have Grogan, Dove, & Hanlon who failed to take any type of action to stop Platt after he gained a tactical advantage. What happed to Grogan, as I mentioned earlier, is the big mystery to me, but we also have Hanlon, who was wounded in the hand and had an empty weapon, but otherwise mobile, and Dove, who was unwounded but had a disabled firearm, both of whom basically let Platt walk up and shoot them execution style.

This is where the FBI had a major training failure. The agents all performed pretty well in the firefight as far as their training went, but when the situation escalated outside the parameters of their training (after they had received wounds/been disarmed), with the exception of Mireles, they failed to perform at all. No attempt to escape, no attempt to physically over power the partially disabled Platt, they just passively allowed themselves to be shot. That's the training problem that the FBI needed to address after the Miami shootout.

I have no idea if they ever did or not.


Your statement "they just passively allowed themselves to be shot". is pure and simply incorrect



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Originally Posted by Gadfly
Putting aside the obvious tactical mistakes and the debate over weaponry, the reason that Platt performed as well as he did, after taking serious hits, as compared to the FBI agents, was better training.

Despite a lot of hype about it being a Butch & Sundance type go out with a bang / suicide by cop deal, Platt and Matix's main objective was to escape, and all their actions during the firefight support this.

Platt's military training was to focus on his objective and to eliminate any threats that interfered with that objective. He did this in the way he was trained, by aggressively engaging those threats, even after he had been seriously injured.

Platt's charge, where he kill Grogan & Dove, and wounded Hanlon and McNeil occurred after after his fatal wounding, and after the wound that disabled his right hand. Still, he improvised a way to continue firing his weapon and achieved his objective, which was eliminating the return fire that was preventing his escape. Matix, though receiving a devastating head wound and a potentially fatal neck/chest wound still had enough situational awareness to realize that Platt had taken Grogans vehicle and join him there.

On the other side though, we have Grogan, Dove, & Hanlon who failed to take any type of action to stop Platt after he gained a tactical advantage. What happed to Grogan, as I mentioned earlier, is the big mystery to me, but we also have Hanlon, who was wounded in the hand and had an empty weapon, but otherwise mobile, and Dove, who was unwounded but had a disabled firearm, both of whom basically let Platt walk up and shoot them execution style.

This is where the FBI had a major training failure. The agents all performed pretty well in the firefight as far as their training went, but when the situation escalated outside the parameters of their training (after they had received wounds/been disarmed), with the exception of Mireles, they failed to perform at all. No attempt to escape, no attempt to physically over power the partially disabled Platt, they just passively allowed themselves to be shot. That's the training problem that the FBI needed to address after the Miami shootout.

I have no idea if they ever did or not.


I have never been in that situation but regardless of training its tuff to imagine anyone just sitting there giving up and waiting to get shot. especially FBI agents. I surely can't see myself just sitting there. maybe they thought they were done regardless of their actions and maybe just maybe the bad buy would let them be if they stopped showing hostile action. maybe they felt at that moment that was their ONLY chance at living. thats the only thing I can think of.

some ask why the body armor and heavy weapons were not used. its apparent to me that the FBI felt a great sense of urgency to take these guys out. waiting and organizing themselves could have potentially let the bad guys escape. to me the real lesson to be learned is how to organize a force thats prepared to deal with the situation in a way that doesn't let the bad guys escape but still allows a greater degree of preparedness.

I don't really see 9mm vs 40 or really worrying about specific cartridges being much of a factor. just give the agents glocks and access to short barreled M4's as far as weaponry. add in some body armor and these agents would have been fine, with the possible exception of how they chose to take the guys down and pinning the vehicle.

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Show me something that supports your position. Grogan died with a functioning weapon that still had six rounds of ammo, yet he failed to engage Platt before Platt fatally shot him. That he was aware of Platt's presence and his intent is suggested by Hanlon's testimony about Grogan's exclaimation immediately before he was shot.

Hanlon's testimony about his own encounter with Platt states that he watched as Platt aimed the gun at his head, and then changed his mind and shot him in the groin. No mention of any offensive or defensive acts, just passively taking a round to the groin.

Dove is less clear of a case, but the fact that he took two closely place shots to the head from from a man who had a disabled right hand and who was having to improvise trigger manipulation suggests that Dove was not an active target at the time he was engaged.

I'd certainly like to see any evidence that suggests otherwise.


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Your contention is that is one gets killed before he is able to fire all of his ammo, then he isn't trying. Is that your position?



Have you read this?

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Tactical Brief


Firearms Tactical Institute
Web Site Index and Navigation Center

Tactical Briefs #7, July 1998

Updated 6-25-99: Link to Dr. Anderson's web site, in which selected pages from his book are published, has been added to the end of the literature report below.

Literature Report

Anderson, W. French, M.D.: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight. W. French Anderson, M.D., 1996 (127 pages, paperback)

This publication (softcover book) was researched, written and published entirely by Dr. Anderson, who is a professor of Biochemistry and Pediatrics at the University of Southern California School of Medicine. Dr. Anderson�s report is the most thoroughly researched and documented account of the FBI-Miami shoot-out that has ever been made public.

Note: Ordering instructions appear at the end of this article.

For the benefit of those of you who are unfamiliar with the circumstances leading up to this shoot-out, the following is a summary of the incident (this is not part of Dr. Anderson�s book):

Two FBI agents were killed and five wounded in Miami during a confrontation with robbery suspects at approximately 9:45 a.m. on April 11. Prior to the shootings, the Agents, along with officers of the Metro-Dade Police Department, were conducting a mobile surveillance, attempting to locate two males believed to have committed a number of violent bank and armored car robberies. Observing a vehicle matching the description of one that had been stolen and used in previous robberies, an attempt was made to stop the car. When the Agents in three FBI vehicles subsequently forced the suspects� vehicle to a halt, two males, aged 32 and 34, emerged firing weapons. They used a 12-gauge shotgun with a modified pistol grip stock equipped to fire eight rounds; a .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle with 30 round magazine; and two .357-caliber handguns. The resultant gun battle left the two assailants and two Agents dead, as well as five Agents wounded. The victim Agents, both killed by rifle fire, were 53 and 30 years of age with 24 and 3 years of service, respectively. Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 1986. United States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Washington, D.C., 1986, p. 27.

Dr. Anderson�s publication neither addresses nor examines the tactical aspects of the confrontation and ensuing gunfight. Instead, according to Dr. Anderson the purpose of his work is, "to establish the facts concerning what is known about the injuries incurred by Michael Platt and William Matix," and "to present a reasonable hypothesis, based on those facts, of what actually happened from a forensic medicine perspective to these two individuals".

We�re publishing this literature report as our comprehensive interpretation of Dr. Anderson�s findings. Whereas many of the general facts about the shoot-out are well known as they have been publicly reported in several magazine articles, news reports, a made for television movie, etc., Dr. Anderson�s book closely examines the wounds inflicted on Matix and Platt and attempts to correlate the time, location and exact body positions of both Matix and Platt when they were struck by FBI gunfire, and also attempts to identify which FBI agent fired the shot that caused the particular wound. Our intent is not to infringe upon Dr. Anderson�s work or copyright, but to report about his findings. In order to accomplish this, we have to report his findings in more detail than a typical "literature review" would provide. Also, we attempt to "paint pictures with words" in describing each of the graphic illustrations and photographs.

Introduction

Dr. Anderson�s book begins by reviewing the background information about the gun battle, and includes information about the participants, the weapons used, the injuries incurred by the suspects and FBI agents, and the location and positioning of the suspect and FBI vehicles:

FBI Agents:

Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ron Risner Uninjured.

Suspects:

William Matix, 34 Killed by multiple gunshot wounds.
Michael Platt, 32 Killed by multiple gunshot wounds.

Weapons involved in the gunfight:

Suspects:

Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun (1 round #6 shot fired).
Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine (at least 42 rounds fired),
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired),

Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired).


FBI:

McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired),
.357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).

Grogan: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (9 rounds fired).
Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired).
Risner: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (13-14 rounds fired?),
S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver (1 round .38 Special +P fired).

Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 4 inch barrel (12 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Hanlon: S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Manauzzi: Apparently lost possession of his handgun during the vehicle collision and was unable to locate and recover it during the gunfight (0 rounds fired).

From the time in which Grogan and Dove first spotted the Monte Carlo occupied by Platt and Matix to the time in which the last gunshot was fired by Mireles, approximately nine and a half minutes elapsed. The gun battle itself lasted over four minutes.

In the Introduction section, there are three color illustrations depicting the crime scene and five color photographs of the actual crime scene. The following is a description of these illustrations and photographs:

Plate A (prepared by Metro-Dade Police Department) is an overhead view illustration that shows major geographical features of the crime scene (structures, roads, trees, etc.) as well as the location and positioning of Matix/Platt�s Monte Carlo, the FBI agents� cars, and two uninvolved civilian vehicles (a Cutlass and a Trans Am) parked at the crime scene during the shoot-out.

In an effort to help you follow the events of the shoot-out, we�ve prepared and published a simple illustration that is based on Plate A. Our illustration is published below. Please keep in mind that our illustration is not to scale and is intended to provide you a coarse representation of the crime scene.

Plate B (prepared by Metro-Dade Police Department) is an overhead view illustration of the crime scene that depicts the locations and positioning of the vehicles and the bodies of the deceased, and provides color coded graphic symbols to identify the location of spent firearms cartridge cases found at the scene, the locations of weapons found on the scene, the locations and calibers of projectiles recovered at the crime scene and in the bodies of the deceased.

Plate C (prepared by Metro-Dade Police Department) is an overhead view illustration of the crime scene that depicts the locations of blood found on the grounds, vehicles, and weapons. The illustration provides color coded graphics that identify the person from whom the blood originated.

Plate D is an overhead view crime scene photograph (color) that was taken from a position almost directly behind McNeill�s car. It shows the locations and positioning of the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car, Cutlass, and Grogan/Dove�s car. Grogan/Dove�s car is seen displaced from it�s location during the gunfight; it�s front bumper is in contact with the rear bumper of Manauzzi�s car.

(According to Dr. Anderson, Grogan/Dove�s car had rolled forward in the moments immediately after the gun battle. We asked Dr. Anderson about this and he queried Orrantia, McNeil and Mireles. All three Agents agreed that the likely scenario was that the transmission was in neutral, and when the driver's and passenger's doors were violently flung open by Risner and Agent Bob Ross to remove the bodies of Platt and Matix, the momentum of the doors being opened caused the car to roll forward until it contacted the rear bumper of Manauzzi's car. When the car came to a halt, Ross removed Platt's body and Risner removed the Matix's body.)

The contrast between bright sunlight and deep shade under the trees is clearly visible. A white sheet and a yellow sheet are visible in the shade covering Dove�s and Grogan�s bodies. The deep shade obscures the view of Platt�s body laying on the ground (face side up) outside the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car. In the bright sunlight out in the street, Mireles� shotgun is partially visible behind the passenger side corner of the rear bumper of McNeill�s car. A large pool of blood is also visible to the right of the shotgun.

Plate E is a crime scene photograph (color) view taken from the approximate perspective of where Hanlon/Mireles� car is located. McNeill�s car in the foreground almost totally obscures the view of Manauzzi�s car in the background. The rear passenger compartment of the Monte Carlo is visible above the hood of McNeill�s car. The rear passenger compartment of the Cutlass is visible behind the Monte Carlo�s trunk. Grogan/Dove�s car is touching Manauzzi�s car. Platt�s body is barely visible in the deep shade laying on the ground outside the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car. A white sheet covering Dove�s body and a yellow sheet covering Grogan�s body are visible in the deep shade behind their car.

Plate F is a crime scene photograph (color) close-up view taken from a similar angle as the Plate E photo and shows essentially the same details.

Plate G is a crime scene photograph (color) view taken from behind Grogan/Dove�s car. The trunk of a large tree is visible, located immediately behind the passenger side rear fender of Grogan/Dove�s car. Large blood smears and blood splatters are visible on the rear of Grogan/Dove�s car. Grogan�s body is visible on the ground, partially covered by a yellow sheet. Dove�s body is visible on the ground, partially covered by a yellow sheet and a white sheet. Platt�s body is uncovered and partially visible; his bare upper torso can be seen (paramedics apparently tore off his shirt) and an endotracheal tube is visible sticking out of his mouth. The contrast between bright sunlight and deep shade is very evident.

Plate H is a crime scene photograph (color) taken from a location in the parking lot behind the Trans Am. Grogan/Dove�s car is visible on the left of the photo, the driver�s side corner of the front bumper is touching the driver�s side rear bumper of Manauzzi�s car; the front hood and windshield of McNeill�s car is visible behind Manauzzi�s and Grogan/Dove�s cars; Manauzzi�s car is visible to the immediate left of the Monte Carlo. The Monte Carlo�s entire passenger side is visibly wedged hard against the Cutlass; the rear passenger side of the Monte Carlo is sagging. The rear window of the Monte Carlo has been almost completely shot out. Shattered glass fragments can be seen covering the trunk of the Monte Carlo.

The Injuries of Michael Platt and William Matix

The gunshot wounds present on Matix�s body (six wounds, A-F) and Platt�s body (12 wounds, A-L) are identified and detailed in alphabetical sequence in the autopsy reports prepared by Dade County Medical Examiner Jay Barnhart, M.D. These reports have been reproduced in Dr. Anderson�s book. Dr. Anderson refers to each wound using the same identification letter and terminology as documented in the autopsy reports.

Dr. Anderson�s book follows the chronology of the gunfight and addresses each of Matix�s and Platt�s wounds in the chronological order in which each was inflicted. He has broken the gunfight down into four distinct phases as follows:

I. The first encounter: Platt and Matix inside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1 minute)
II. The initial hits on Platt: Platt exiting the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: several seconds)
III. Platt�s devastating attack: Platt outside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1� minutes)
IV. The final fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove�s car
(estimated duration of approximately 1� - 2 minutes).




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Tactical Briefs #7, Figure 1. FBI-Miami Shootout Crime Scene

I. The First Encounter: Platt and Matix Inside the Monte Carlo

Matix�s 1st gunshot wound (right forearm wound E) - Grogan
Matix�s 2nd gunshot wound (right head wound F) - McNeill
Matix�s 3rd gunshot wound (right neck/chest wound B) - McNeill

Immediately after Matix/Platt�s Monte Carlo was forced off the road by three FBI vehicles (occupied by Special Agents Grogan/Dove, Manauzzi, and Hanlon/Mireles), it sideswiped a Cutlass sedan and collided head-on into a tree. Platt (sitting in the passenger seat) then fired 13 rounds from his Mini-14 through the closed driver�s side window of the Monte Carlo at Manauzzi in the car directly beside them, then at Supervisory Special Agent McNeill�s approaching car, then at McNeill (hitting his shooting hand), and then at Mireles (who fell to the ground after being hit in his left forearm). Dr. Anderson conjectures that Platt might have felt he�d sufficiently suppressed the threats emanating from the left front of the Monte Carlo, and he pulled back from the window. This would have given Matix the opportunity to fire towards the left rear at Grogan and Dove with his 12 gauge shotgun.

Because the driver�s side door had been damaged during the collision with Manauzzi�s car (as well as the proximity of Manauzzi�s car immediately beside the Monte Carlo), Matix could only partially open his door. He leaned out from his sitting position and fired one round of #6 shot towards Grogan and Dove, which hit the grill of Grogan�s car. Dr. Anderson feels this is most likely when Matix received his first wound, right forearm wound E, which entered his right forearm just above the wrist. Dr. Anderson believes Grogan fired this shot, which hit Matix from a distance of approximately 25 feet. Grogan�s bullet entered Matix�s forearm on the little finger side, traveled just beneath the ulnar and radius bones, cut the ulnar artery, and exited the forearm on the thumb side.

Dr. Anderson speculates that Matix probably withdrew back inside the Monte Carlo to examine the wound. At this point, McNeill (who�d already fired four shots across the hood of Manauzzi�s car and into the cab of the Monte Carlo when he was hit in his gun hand by one of Platt�s .223 bullets) apparently saw Matix�s movement and fired the last two rounds out of his revolver at Matix. The bullet from McNeill�s shot number 5 is believed to have caused Matix�s 2nd wound, head wound F.

As Matix pulled back inside after firing at Grogan and Dove, who were positioned behind the Monte Carlo, Matix�s head and upper torso were still rotated to the left when McNeill�s bullet hit him, producing head wound F. The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain) and Dr. Anderson believes it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious.

McNeill�s sixth shot hit Matix, causing the third wound, right neck/chest wound B. The bullet entered the right side of his neck after he slumped unconscious momentarily forward against the driver�s side door. It penetrated his neck at a downward angle and severed the blood vessels behind the collar bone, ricocheted off the first rib near the spine and came to rest in the chest cavity. It bruised but did not penetrate the right lung. This wound interrupted the blood supply to his right arm and might have also disrupted the brachial plexus to cause dysfunction of the nerves that supply the arm. Dr. Anderson speculates that Matix�s right arm was probably paralyzed by this injury, either immediately by disruption of the nerves or eventually by total loss of blood circulation to the arm. Dr. Anderson feels this wound would have ultimately been fatal, due to the severed blood vessels. Bleeding from this injury during the next 2-3 minutes caused almost a liter of blood to accumulate in the chest cavity. However, for the next minute, it is believed that Matix slumped over onto his back and lay unconscious on the front seat of the Monte Carlo.

Dr. Anderson observes that although Platt fired 13 rounds of .223 directly in front of Matix�s face, autopsy results suggest the muzzle blasts did not appear to damage Matix�s eyes or ears. His corneas were intact and there was no blood in his ear canals to indicate that his eardrums had been ruptured.

Platt�s blood was not found anywhere inside the Monte Carlo, and because of this Dr. Anderson believes Platt did not receive any bullet wounds while he occupied the passenger compartment.

The following is a description of photographs and illustrations published in Chapter I:

Figure I-1 (Matix forearm wound E) is an overhead illustration that depicts the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car, Grogan/Dove�s car and an uninvolved civilian car (Cutlass). Grogan is depicted firing his gun at Matix from behind his open car door and shows the path of the bullet from the muzzle of Grogan�s gun, across the hood of Grogan�s car, across the trunk of Manauzzi�s car and hitting Matix�s forearm.

Figure I-2 (Matix forearm wound E) is a close-up, overhead illustration that shows the path of Grogan�s bullet through Matix�s forearm while Matix is leaning out of the partially opened driver�s door of the Monte Carlo. Matix is depicted holding the shotgun in a firing position with his whole upper torso rotated to the left at the waist. The pistol grip held in his right hand. His left hand is supporting the shotgun's receiver.

Figure I-3 (Matix forearm wound E) contains three separate illustrations. The first is a medical illustration that depicts a cross section of Matix�s forearm to show major anatomical structures and the wound path of Grogan�s bullet. The second illustration depicts Grogan�s bullet having passed through Matix�s forearm and how it cut the ulnar artery. The third illustration is a left side view that shows Matix twisted around to his left facing backwards in the driver�s seat of the Monte Carlo, firing his shotgun while Grogan�s bullet enters his forearm on the little finger side, passes through the forearm, and exits the thumb side.

Figure I-4 (Matix head and neck/chest wounds F and B) is an overhead illustration that depicts the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car, Grogan/Dove�s car and an uninvolved civilian car (Cutlass). McNeill is depicted kneeling beside the left front fender of Manauzzi�s car firing shots 5 and 6 across the hood at Matix, who�s sitting in the driver�s seat of the Monte Carlo.

Figure I-5 (Matix head wound F) is a close-up, overhead view that shows the path of McNeill�s bullet from shot number 5, as it impacts the right side of Matix�s head while he�s turned around facing backwards.

Figure I-6 (Matix head wound F) is a side view illustration of Matix�s bust (head and shoulders) that shows the bullet from McNeill�s shot number 5 striking his head just forward of his right ear and the wound path of the bullet into the sinus.

Figure I-6 (sic) (Matix head wound F) is a medical illustration that depicts a profile of Matix�s head as viewed from the right front quadrant. The skull and brain are detailed to show the anatomical structures disrupted by the bullet from McNeill�s shot number 5.

Figure I-7 (Matix head wound F) is a photograph (black & white) of a bullet fragment recovered from the right side of Matix�s face.

Figure I-8 (Matix head wound F) is a photograph (black & white) of a bullet fragment recovered from Matix�s right maxillary sinus.

Figure I-9 (Matix neck/chest wound B) is a close-up overhead illustration view that shows the path of McNeill�s bullet from shot number 6 as it impacts the right side of Matix�s neck while he�s slumped against the driver�s door facing McNeill.

Figure I-10 (Matix neck/chest wound B) is a side view illustration of Matix�s bust that shows the bullet from McNeill�s shot number 6 striking his neck and the wound path of the bullet into the chest.

Figure I-11 (Matix neck/chest wound B) is a medical illustration that depicts the major anatomical structures disrupted by the bullet from McNeill�s shot number 6.

Figure I-12 (Matix neck/chest wound B) is a photograph (black & white) of a bullet fragment recovered from the front right side of the neck.

Plate I-A is a crime scene photograph (color) view of the damaged Monte Carlo�s driver�s side door taken from the right rear fender of Manauzzi�s car. It shows the Monte Carlo from the approximate perspective of Grogan and Dove.

Plate I-B is a crime scene photograph (color) close-up view of the limited ability of the Monte Carlo�s driver�s side door to open.

Plate I-C (Matix right forearm wound E) is an autopsy photograph (color) of the entry wound to the right forearm produced by Grogan�s bullet.

Map of Plate I-C (Matix right forearm wound E) is an illustration of right forearm entry wound photograph Plate I-C.

Plate I-D (Matix right forearm wound E) is an autopsy photograph (color) of the exit wound to the right forearm produced by Grogan�s bullet.

Map of Plate I-D (Matix right forearm wound E) is an illustration of right forearm exit wound photograph Plate I-D.

Plate I-E is a crime scene photograph (color) of the view of the Monte Carlo driver�s window from across the engine compartment hood of Manauzzi�s car.

Plate I-F is a crime scene photograph (color) of the hood of Manauzzi�s car that shows the muzzle blast soot deposits of McNeill�s six shots.

Plate I-G is an autopsy photograph (color) of the right side of Matix�s face showing gunshot wounds A, B, C and F.

Plate 1-H is an autopsy photograph (color) of the right front quadrant of Matix�s bust showing gunshot wounds A, B, C, D and F. A wire probe has been inserted into neck/chest wound B.

Plate I-I is a crime photograph (color) showing Matix�s body laying on the ground (face side up) as viewed from the right side after Risner removed him from Grogan/Dove�s car.

Map of Plate I-I is an illustration of the blood patterns present on Matix�s head and upper torso as seen in crime scene photograph I-I.

II. The Initial Hits on Platt: Platt Exiting the Monte Carlo

Platt�s 1st gunshot wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) - Dove
Platt�s 2nd gunshot wound (right thigh wound L) - Dove?
Platt�s 3rd gunshot wound (left foot wound I) - Dove?
Platt�s 4th gunshot wound (back wound K) - Orrantia?

Dr. Anderson theorizes that when Platt saw Matix slump over after being hit by McNeill�s bullets he might have decided that his chances of getting away were better if he exited the Monte Carlo.

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove�s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

(However, the accompanying autopsy report states that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle, and the autopsy photograph seems to support the medical examiner�s observation. The autopsy photograph shows an entry wound of the upper right arm, just above the inside bend of the elbow, in the location where the biceps muscle begins to show definition. The photograph suggests that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle of the upper arm in front of the bone. We discussed our observation with Dr. Anderson and he agreed with us. He stated that he would correct this error in a future revision to his report.)

At autopsy, Platt�s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt�s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt�s death.

The Monte Carlo came to a stop with it�s passenger side wedged against an uninvolved vehicle (Cutlass) that was parked in the driveway of a duplex home where the incident took place. After Platt crawled out the window and was rolling off the front hood of the Cutlass, Dr. Anderson believes he has hit twice more, most probably by Dove, in the right rear thigh and left foot, (right rear thigh wound L and left foot wound I, respectively).

The bullet that produced the thigh wound entered the inside back surface of the right thigh and exited the outside surface of the leg, and involved only muscle tissue.

The bullet that hit Platt�s left foot entered behind the little toe and passed laterally through the foot from left to right, exiting above the big toe.

Dr. Anderson feels Platt�s fourth gunshot wound (back wound K) might have incurred shortly after he exited the Monte Carlo. The wound is a left to right grazing wound to the back, and may have been inflicted by Orrantia, who was in a position across the street and in front of the Monte Carlo. Orrantia�s bullet might have hit Platt after he got back onto his feet in front of the Cutlass and was turning to his left. The bullet abraded the skin just to the right of the spine in the location of the upper shoulder blade.

The following is a description of photographs and illustrations published in Chapter II:

Figure II-1 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an overhead illustration that depicts the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, McNeill�s car, Manauzzi�s car, Grogan/Dove�s car, and an uninvolved civilian car (Cutlass). Dove is depicted firing his gun at Platt from behind his open passenger side door and shows the path of the bullet leaving the muzzle of Dove�s gun, across the trunk of the Monte Carlo, through the rear passenger compartment window of the Monte Carlo, through a passenger side window of the Monte Carlo and hitting Platt�s right upper arm as he�s crawling out the passenger side window of the Monte Carlo.

Figure II-2 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is a close-up side view illustration of Platt crawling out the passenger side window of the Monte Carlo, holding the Mini-14 rifle in his right hand. The trajectory of Dove�s bullet is shown passing through the right upper arm and into the right side of the chest.

Figure II-3 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) contains two separate illustrations. The upper drawing is a medical illustration that depicts the major body structures (major nerves and blood vessels of the of the right upper arm, rib cage, right lung, etc.) disrupted by Dove�s bullet as it passed through Platt�s right upper arm and into his chest. The second drawing is a medical illustration that depicts a cross section of Platt�s right upper arm to show major anatomical structures and the wound path of Dove�s bullet through the arm.

Figure II-4 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an autopsy x-ray of Platt�s chest showing a mushroomed bullet in the hilum of Platt�s right lung. Also visible is another bullet (Platt right forearm/chest wound C) that was inflicted at a later point in the gunfight.

Figure II-5 (Platt right rear thigh wound L and left foot wound I) is an overhead illustration that depicts the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, McNeill�s car, Manauzzi�s car, Grogan/Dove�s car and uninvolved civilian vehicle (Cutlass). Dove is depicted behind his open car door firing his gun at Platt. The trajectory of the two bullets that hit Platt are shown exiting the muzzle of Dove�s gun, across the trunk of the Monte Carlo, through the rear passenger compartment window of the Monte Carlo, and hitting Platt after he�s exited the Monte Carlo and he�s rolling off the front hood of the Cutlass with Mini-14 in hand.

Figure II-6 (Platt right rear thigh wound L and left foot wound I) is a close-up, overhead illustration that shows the paths of Dove�s two bullets through Platt�s right thigh and left foot while Platt is rolling off the front hood of the Monte Carlo with Mini-14 (fitted with collapsing/folding stock) in hand.

Figure II-7 (Platt right rear thigh wound L) is a medical illustration that shows Dove�s bullet passing from left to right through the musculature of the back of Platt�s right thigh.

Figure II-8 (Platt back wound K) is an illustration showing Orrantia�s bullet grazing Platt�s back from left to right, abrading and bruising the skin.

Plate II-A (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an autopsy photograph (color) of Platt�s outstretched right upper arm. A metal probe is seen inserted through the entry and exit wounds, following the wound path produced by Dove�s bullet.

Map of Plate II-A (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an illustration of Platt�s right upper arm as seen in photograph Plate II-A.

Plate II-B (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an autopsy photograph (color) of Platt�s right armpit. A metal probe is seen inserted through the path of Dove�s bullet from the exit wound of the right upper inside arm and into the entry wound of the right side chest. The exit wound of the arm is jagged. Bruising and abrasions caused by the temporary cavity formed in the upper arm by the 115 grain Winchester Silvertip bullet are visible on the skin of the inside arm and armpit side of the chest.

Map of Plate II-B (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is an illustration of Platt�s armpit as seen in photograph Plate II-B.

Plate II-C (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is a crime scene photograph (color) of the rear passenger side of Grogan/Dove�s car. A large quantity of Platt�s blood is seen splattered on the passenger side rear door and rear fender. According to Dr. Anderson�s caption: "Platt only leaned against this car for a few seconds. His right brachial artery had to have been actively spurting blood at the time to have left these blood patterns."

Plate II-D (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is a crime scene photograph (color) close-up of the rear passenger side door, fender and trunk hood of Grogan/Dove�s car. In addition to the spurting blood patterns described above, there are also large smears of blood on the fender and trunk hood deposited by Platt when he leaned against the car to fire at Grogan.

Plate II-E (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B) is a crime scene photograph (color) of the rear of Grogan/Dove�s car. Large splatters of Platt�s blood are visible on the trunk hood, tail lights and rear bumper. Platt�s body is partially visible laying on the ground, face-up, outside the partially open driver�s door.

Plate II-F (Platt right rear thigh wound L) is an autopsy photograph of Platt�s left and right rear thighs. A metal probe has been inserted through the wound track of the right rear thigh, from exit wound to entry wound respectively.

Plate II-G (Platt left foot wound I) is an autopsy photograph (color) of the top of Platt�s left foot. A metal probe has been inserted through the wound track, and a toe tag that has been tied around the big toe is visible.

Map of Plate II-G (Platt left foot wound I) is an illustration of Platt�s left foot as seen in photograph Plate II-G.

Plate II-H (Platt left foot wound I) is an autopsy photograph (color) of the entrance wound side of Platt�s left foot. A metal probe is seen protruding out the entrance wound.

Map of Plate II-H (Platt left foot wound I) is an illustration of Platt�s left foot as seen in photograph Plate II-H.

Plate II-I (Platt back wound K) is an autopsy photograph (color) of the superficial bullet wound to the back.

III. Platt�s Devastating Attack: Platt Outside the Monte Carlo

Platt�s 5th wound (right forearm wound D) - Risner?/Orrantia?
Platt�s 6th wound (right upper arm/chest wound C) - Risner
Platt�s 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th wounds (right foot wounds E, F; and left foot wounds G and H) - Mireles

After Platt crawled out of the Monte Carlo and rolled off the front hood of the Cutlass, he took a position at the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at Risner and Orrantia, who were both across the street shooting at him. Dr. Anderson believes that the revolver would have been easier for Platt to manipulate due to the injury incurred to his right upper arm by Dove�s bullet (Platt right upper arm/chest wound B).

Dr. Anderson feels Platt received his fifth wound (Platt right forearm wound D) when, after shooting at Risner and Orrantia, he turned to fire at Grogan, Dove and Hanlon (who�d by now joined up with Grogan and Dove after running across the street with Mireles). The bullet, fired by either Risner or Orrantia, hit the outside of Platt�s right forearm (midway between the wrist and the elbow) fractured the radius bone (the bone in the forearm on the thumb side), and exited the forearm.

The bullet also affected the muscles that control the thumb�s ability to grip causing Platt to drop his .357 Magnum revolver. The revolver was found at the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass after the shoot-out.

Dr. Anderson believes that shortly thereafter, Platt incurred his sixth wound (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C), which was inflicted by Risner. The bullet entered the back of Platt�s right upper arm (mid arm), passed through the triceps muscle and exited below the armpit. It then entered the muscles in the side of his chest and came to a rest in the soft tissues of the right side back, below the shoulder blade. The bullet did not penetrate the rib cage and the resultant wound was not serious.

Platt then apparently positioned the Mini-14 against his shoulder using his uninjured left hand and manipulated the trigger with a barely functioning finger on his right hand, and fired three shots. One shot was directed at Orrantia and Risner�s location, which hit the steering wheel of their car. Orrantia was injured by flying debris from this bullet. Two shots were fired at McNeill. The first bullet missed McNeill, but the second hit his neck. The second bullet stunned McNeill�s spinal cord causing him to collapse, and he was temporarily paralyzed for several hours afterwards. McNeill recounts that Platt was smiling at him as he was shot.

Platt left his position at the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass, moving between the Cutlass and Trans Am, and began rapidly closing distance with Grogan, Dove and Hanlon who were behind Grogan/Dove�s car. (A Mini-14 magazine was recovered adjacent to the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass suggesting that Platt reloaded before he began his charge.)

At this point in the gunfight, Dove had relocated from behind the passenger side door of his car, around the back of the car and had taken a position near the driver's side door. (Dove�s gun, a S&W model 459 9mm automatic, had been hit by one of Platt�s bullets. Whether or not this occurred before or after he moved to the opposite side of the car is unknown.) Grogan had moved to occupy a position near the driver's side rear fender. Hanlon had fired his gun dry after shooting at Platt from around the passenger side rear fender/bumper and was hit by one of Platt�s bullets in his gun hand while reloading. Hanlon then rolled over onto his back behind the car. Within moments he saw Platt�s feet standing at the passenger side rear of the vehicle. Dr. Anderson states that it was at this time when Platt left large smears of blood as well as arterial blood spurt patterns on the rear of the vehicle. As Hanlon attempted to push himself under the left rear trunk to maximize his cover against Platt, he heard Grogan cry out, "Oh my God!" Platt killed Grogan with a single shot to the chest. Platt then rounded the rear fender, saw Hanlon, and fired one shot into Hanlon�s groin area. Hanlon rolled over onto right side into a fetal position expecting to be shot again and killed. However, Platt immediately shifted his attention to Dove, firing twice directly into Dove�s head. Dove instantly collapsed; his head coming to rest just inches away from Hanlon�s face. According to Dr. Anderson, Hanlon recalls that Platt fired several more rounds, apparently at Risner and Orrantia. The spent cases from Platt�s Mini-14 fell onto Hanlon�s body.

After firing at Risner and Orrantia, Platt opened the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s Buick. Just as he was stepping to enter the car, Mireles fired the first of five rounds of 00 buckshot from the Remington 870 shotgun he was carrying when he was hit in the forearm at the beginning of the gunfight by one of Platt�s bullets. Dr. Anderson feels this first shot by Mireles caused Platt right foot wounds E and F, and left foot wounds G and H. These wounds did not knock Platt off his feet.

Sometime during the gunfight, Matix regained consciousness and apparently crawled, unseen by the FBI agents, out the same window Platt had used to exit the Monte Carlo. Orrantia reported that Matix remained near the passenger side front fender of the Monte Carlo for awhile without ever firing a shot. When Platt entered the driver�s side of Grogan/Dove�s car, Matix joined him by entering the passenger side door. According to Dr. Anderson, forensic evidence indicates that Matix never fired a weapon after he received his initial injuries while occupying the driver�s seat of the Monte Carlo.

The following is a description of photographs and illustrations published in Chapter III:

Figure III-1 (Platt right forearm wound D and right upper arm/chest wound C) is an overhead view illustration that shows the location and positioning of the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car, Grogan/Dove�s car, Orrantia�s/Risner�s car, the Cutlass and the Trans Am. Risner is depicted positioned on the passenger side of his car firing over the front hood at Platt, who�s across the street near the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. The trajectory of two bullets is shown leaving Risner�s gun and hitting Platt in the right forearm and right upper arm. Platt is depicted pointing his .357 Magnum revolver at Grogan/Dove/Hanlon . Also shown are the positions of Orrantia (occupying a position on the driver�s side of the Orrantia/Risner car), Hanlon (who�s behind Grogan/Dove�s car), Grogan (near the driver�s side rear fender of his car), and Dove (near the driver�s side door of his car). Dr. Anderson notes that the drawing is based on speculation that Risner fired the bullet that hit Platt�s forearm. The bullet passed completely through his arm and was never recovered. Therefore, there�s no ballistic evidence to prove that Risner inflicted this wound on Platt.

Figure III-2 (right forearm wound D) is a close-up overhead view illustration showing Platt firing, using only his right hand, at Grogan/Dove/Hanlon. The trajectory of Risner�s or Orrantia�s bullet is shown passing through his right forearm.

Figure III-3 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C) is a close-up overhead view illustration showing Platt standing in the same position as when he was hit in the forearm, however his shooting arm is hanging limp against his body. The trajectory of Risner�s bullet is shown hitting and penetrating Platt�s right side.

Figure III-4 (Platt right forearm wound D) is a medical illustration that depicts two views of the anatomical structures damaged by the bullet that perforated his right forearm. The upper illustration is an overhead view of Platt�s forearm showing the bullet�s wound path through the ulnar bone and damaging the muscle that controls the thumb. The lower illustration is a side view perspective that presents the same information.

Figure III-5 (Platt forearm wound D and right upper arm/chest wound C) is an autopsy x-ray that shows the huge wound channel blasted through the ulnar bone by the impacting bullet, which shattered the bone. Bone fragments can be seen scattered in the soft tissues on the exit wound side of the bone (inside surface of the forearm). Also visible is Risner�s bullet that produced right upper arm/chest wound C.

Figure III-6 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C) is a medical illustration that depicts the wound path of Risner�s bullet through the musculature of the back of Platt�s right upper forearm and into the subcutaneous tissues of the middle/rear upper torso under the shoulder blade.

Figure III-7 (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C) is an autopsy x-ray showing the bullet lodged in the tissues of Platt�s back, external to the rib cage.

Figure III-8 (Platt right foot wounds E, F, and left foot wounds G, H) is an overhead view illustration that shows the location and positioning of Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car and Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles is depicted laying on his right side behind McNeill�s car firing a 12 gauge shotgun at Platt when he�s stepping with his right foot to enter the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car.

Figure III-9 (Platt right foot wounds E, F, and left foot wounds G, H) is a side view perspective illustration showing four 00 buckshot pellets passing through Platt�s feet (two pellets through each foot) when Platt is stepping into Grogan/Dove�s car with his right foot.

Figure III-10 (Platt right foot wounds E, F, and left foot wounds G, H) is an autopsy x-ray of Platt�s right and left feet showing pellet fragments and several broken bones.

Figure III-11(Platt right foot wounds E and F) is a medical illustration that depicts two views of the anatomical structures damaged by the 00 shotgun pellets fired by Mireles. The top illustration depicts the right foot from a left side perspective that shows the wound path of a shotgun pellet entering the top of the foot at the second joint of the big toe, passing through the joint, and exiting the bottom of the foot (right foot wound F). The lower illustration depicts the right foot from an overhead view perspective that shows the wound paths of two shotgun pellets: one pellet passing through the second joint of the big toe (right foot wound F); the second pellet is depicted entering the center of the top of the foot and exiting the right outer surface below the ankle (right foot wound E).

Figure III-12 (Platt left foot wounds G, H and I) is a medical illustration that depicts two views of the anatomical structures damaged by the 00 shotgun pellets fired by Mireles and the 9mm bullet fired by Dove. The top illustration shows the left foot from a back side perspective that shows the wound path of a shotgun pellet entering the right inner surface below the ankle and exiting at the point where the Achilles tendon attaches to the heel bone (left foot wound H). The lower illustration depicts the left foot from a right side perspective that shows left foot exit wound I (inflicted earlier by Dove) and the wound paths of two shotgun pellets: one pellet entering the inside of the foot below the ankle and behind the arch and exiting the heel (left foot wound H); the second pellet is shown entering the top inside above the big toe and exiting just below the ankle and above the arch, almost directly above left foot entry wound H (left foot wound G).

Figure III-12 (Platt left foot wounds G, H and I) is a medical illustration that depicts the anatomical structures damaged by the 00 shotgun pellets fired by Mireles and the 9mm bullet fired by Dove. The left foot is shown from an overhead view perspective.

Plate III-A (Platt right forearm wound D) is an autopsy photograph (color) of Platt�s right forearm. A metal probe is seen inserted through the entry and exit wounds, following the path of the bullet through the forearm. Also, Platt right upper arm/chest wound B entry site is visible at the base of the biceps muscle.

Map of Plate III-A (Platt right forearm wound D) is an illustration of the forensic details of Platt�s right forearm as seen in photograph Plate III-A.

Plate III-B (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C) is an autopsy photograph (color) of Platt�s right upper arm. Visible on the upper arm are the entry wounds of right upper arm/chest wound C and right upper arm/chest wound B. Dr. Anderson points out that the upper arm is very swollen and the swelling was caused by internal bleeding from the ruptured brachial vessels.

Map of Plate III-B (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C) is an illustration of the forensic details of Platt�s right forearm as seen in photograph Plate III-B.

Plate III-C (Platt right foot wounds E, F and left foot wounds G, H and I) is an autopsy photograph (color) showing Platt�s feet and legs from mid-thigh down. All five wounds to the feet are visible.

Plate III-D (Platt right foot wound E) is an autopsy photograph (color) close-up of Platt�s right foot. A metal probe has been inserted through entrance wound D, through the wound track, and out exit wound D.

Plate III-E (Platt right foot wound F) is an autopsy photograph (color) close-up of Platt�s right foot from an overhead view perspective. A metal probe is inserted through entrance wound F at the base of the big toe.

Plate III-F (Platt right foot wound F) is an autopsy photograph (color) close-up of the bottom of Platt�s right foot. A metal probe is seen protruding out the exit wound of the center of the foot pad immediately behind the big toe.

Plate III-G (Platt left foot wound G) is an autopsy photograph (color) close-up of Platt�s left foot from a right side view perspective. A metal probe is inserted through entrance wound G, through the wound track, and out exit wound G.

Plate III-H (Platt left foot wound H) is an autopsy photograph (color) close-up of Platt�s left foot from a right side view perspective. A metal probe is inserted through exit wound H, through the wound track, and out entrance wound H.

Map of Plates III-C through III-H (Platt right foot wounds E, F and left foot wounds G, H and I) is several illustrations of the forensic details of Platt�s feet injuries seen in the autopsy photographs.

IV. The Final Fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove�s Car

Platt�s 11th wound, scalp wound A - Mireles
Matix�s 4th wound, face wound D - Mireles
Matix�s 5th wound, face/spine wound C - Mireles
Matix�s 6th wound, face/neck wound A - Mireles
Platt�s 12th wound, chest/spine wound J - Mireles

Mireles fired a total of five rounds from his Remington 870 shotgun from a range of about 25 feet. With his first shot it appears he struck Platt in both feet when Platt was about to enter the driver�s seat of Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles fired the remaining four shots at the windshield and driver�s window, but according to Dr. Anderson there�s no compelling forensic evidence to indicate that any of the pellets from Mireles� shots 2-5 hit Platt or Matix. Dr. Anderson speculates that Platt might have ducked below the window openings, possibly in Matix�s lap, to have avoided being hit by the buckshot.

At about this moment in the gunfight, Metro-Dade police patrol officers Martin Heckman and Leonard Figueroa arrived on the scene. Shortly thereafter, Heckman covered McNeill with his own body to protect McNeill from being hit again. The actions of Figueroa are not documented by Dr. Anderson.

Platt�s specific actions at this stage of the gunfight have been subject to controversy. Civilian witness Sidney Martin described Platt as leaving Grogan/Dove�s car and walking more than 20 feet to Mireles� position and firing three shots from a revolver at almost point blank range at Mireles and then returning to Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles does not recall this happening. McNeill recalls seeing what appeared to be bullets striking the pavement. Heckman does not remember Platt being outside the car, but he does recall Platt pointing a gun out the driver�s window at him and their eyes meeting. Risner and Orrantia, who were both across the street, state that they never saw Platt approach Mireles and fire at him.

In Cautionary Note #2 (four paragraphs that are published in the Introduction section), Dr. Anderson postulates that Platt exited the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car, staggered out a few steps, fired three shots from Matix�s .357 Magnum revolver (using his left hand) towards the general direction of Mireles and/or McNeill without hitting anyone, and then immediately got back into the driver�s seat of Grogan/Dove�s car. Dr. Anderson feels that the bones broken in Platt�s feet by Mireles� first shotgun blast (as well as the large amount lost blood) would have prevented him from walking very far. He goes on to explain that the effects of deep shade, position and angles of the participants/witnesses, obstructed views, etc., probably influenced individual perceptions of Platt�s actions.

After Platt got back into Grogan/Dove�s car he attempted to start the engine. Dr. Anderson observes that the injuries to Platt�s right arm probably prevented him from being able to use his right hand to turn the ignition key. This forced Platt to lean away from the driver�s side window to use left hand to turn the key on the steering column. Matix was apparently attempting to help Platt start the car.

Mireles then drew his .357 Magnum revolver, got to his feet, moved laterally about 15 feet parallel with the street, clear of McNeill�s car, and then began walking directly towards Platt and Matix, who were sitting in Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles fired six rounds of .38 Special +P from his revolver. Mireles revolver shots 1 and 2 were fired at Platt, shots 3, 4 and 5 at Matix, and shot 6 at Platt. Five of the six bullets hit Platt or Matix.

Mireles first shot at Platt hit the back of the front seat behind Platt�s left shoulder. Dr. Anderson theorizes that the sound of the gunshot would have caused Platt to turn his head to the left to look for the source of the gunfire. Mireles second shot then hit Platt above the outer edge of the right eyebrow (Platt scalp wound A). The weight of the projectile that was recovered from Platt�s scalp was about 19 grains, suggesting that the bullet hit the driver�s side window post and fragmented. After the fragment penetrated the skin it ricocheted off the curvature of the right side of Platt�s forehead, and traveled between the skin and the exterior surface of the skull for a distance of about 2 inches before it stopped above the right temple. The fragment did not penetrate the cranium.

Dr. Anderson postulates that Platt then laid back on the front bench seat of Grogan/Dove�s car, placing his head and shoulders (face side up) in Matix�s lap on the passenger side, in attempt to use the driver�s side door as cover against Mireles� gunfire. Platt�s movement and positioning trapped Matix upright on the seat with his back against the passenger side door. Mireles third shot hit Matix�s face just below the left cheekbone and adjacent to the left nostril (Matix face wound D). The projectile fragmented in two; the largest embedded in the bone beside the nose, a smaller fragment penetrating the left sinus cavity. According to Dr. Anderson, this wound was not significant, and probably was inflicted as Matix was looking at the approaching Mireles. The size and weight of the two fragments suggests the bullet probably hit the driver�s side window frame before it hit Matix.

Matix then apparently tried to make himself as small a target as possible. He tucked his chin into his chest and pressed his back against the passenger side door to slide his buttocks on the bench seat in attempt to get as low as he could. Dr. Anderson claims this would have accounted for the wound path caused by Mireles� fourth bullet (Matix face/spine wound C). The bullet hit Matix�s face just outside the lower right edge of the right eye socket, at about seven o-clock. The bullet traveled downward through the facial bones, through the right side of the lower jaw, into the neck, and entered the spinal column between cervical vertebra number 7 (C7) and thoracic vertebra number 1 (T1) where it severed the spinal cord at the base of T1.

Matix�s body would have immediately relaxed, according to Dr. Anderson, causing his head to tilt backwards. His face would have risen upwards by the time Mireles� fifth bullet hit him in the face (Matix face wound A). The bullet hit Matix�s chin just below the right corner of the mouth, penetrated the jaw bone and into the neck where it came to rest beside the right side of the spinal column at C7. The bullet did not damage the spinal cord.

By this time Mireles had reached the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver�s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt�s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord. Dr. Anderson observes that the wound path of this bullet through Platt�s body could only have occurred if Platt were lying on his back on the front seat.

Mireles� sixth and final shot ended the gunfight. Platt and Matix both lay on the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car. If Matix was not already dead, he would be shortly. Arriving paramedics came to the aid of the FBI agents first and then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. According to Dr. Anderson, paramedics found no signs of life in Grogan, Dove or Matix and no first aid was attempted. Whereas, Platt appears to have still had a heartbeat because paramedics inserted an airway tube and began administering intravenous fluids. Platt died at the scene without regaining consciousness.

The following is a description of photographs and illustrations published in Chapter IV:

Figure IV-1 (Platt scalp wound A) is an overhead illustration that depicts the positioning of Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car and Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles is shown coming out from behind McNeill�s car firing his gun at Platt and Matix, who are in the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car. With his right arm so badly damaged, Platt is shown attempting to turn the ignition key using his left hand; Matix is shown assisting him.

Figure IV-2 (Platt scalp wound A) is a close-up overhead view perspective illustration showing Platt sitting in the driver�s seat of Grogan/Dove�s car attempting to start the car with his left hand. Matix is depicted sitting directly next to him on the passenger side leaning forward attempting to turn the key in the ignition. The trajectory of Mireles first two shots that he fired from his handgun are shown. Bullet one enters the passenger compartment through the driver�s side window and hits the back of the front seat near Platt�s left shoulder. The second bullet is shown entering the passenger compartment though the driver�s window and hitting Platt in the right forehead . Platt is depicted looking at Mireles while he�s bent forward trying to turn the ignition key. The bullet is shown hitting the right side of Platt�s head, ricocheting off the curved external surface of the skull but being trapped between the skull and scalp, stopping just above the right temple.

Figure IV-3 (Platt scalp wound A) is a medical illustration that portrays Platt from a left side view looking over his left shoulder while he�s sitting in a slightly hunched over position. Mireles shot number 2 is shown striking the forehead above the right eye (about 11 o�clock position in reference to the eye socket). The bullet fragment is depicted penetrating the skin, glancing off the outer surface of the curvature of the right side of the forehead and traveling between the skin and the outer surface of the skull for about 2 inches where it lodged under the scalp over the right temple. An overhead view of just the skull is also presented which shows the same information from a different perspective.

Figure IV-4 (Platt scalp wound A and chest/spine wound J) is an autopsy x-ray of Platt�s bust. The bullet fragment that caused scalp wound A is visible and the bullet that caused chest/spine wound J can be seen embedded in the spinal column at C5.

Figure IV-5 is an overhead illustration that portrays Platt moving from an upright sitting position on the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car to take a position where he�s laying with his back on the seat and his head and shoulders resting in Matix�s lap. The illustration depicts the action Platt took to avoid Mireles� gunfire after shots 1 and 2, as theorized by Dr. Anderson.

Figure IV-6 (Matix face wound D) is an overhead crime scene illustration that depicts the location and positioning of Manauzzi�s car, McNeill�s car and Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles is shown walking out from behind McNeill�s car, traveling a path that is parallel to the street for about 15 feet to a point where he is almost directly even with the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car. Mireles is shown firing shot 3 using his right hand only from a distance of about 15 feet away. Matix is depicted sitting upright on the passenger side of the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car with has back against the closed passenger side door looking directly at Mireles. Platt is depicted laying on his back on the front seat with his head and upper torso in Matix�s lap, trapping Matix. The trajectory of Mireles� bullet is shown exiting the gun, entering the passenger compartment through the driver�s side window and hitting Matix in the left side of his face.

Figure IV-7 (Matix face wound D) is an overhead close-up perspective illustration that details the body positions of Matix and Platt on the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car at the moment when Mireles fired the third shot from his revolver. The trajectory of the bullet is shown entering the driver�s side window and hitting Matix in the left side of his face.

Figure IV-8 (Matix face wound D) is an illustration that depicts a perspective of Matix and Platt as they would be seen by someone sitting in the back seat of Grogan/Dove�s car. Matix is seen sitting on the front bench seat sideways, with his back against the inside surface of the closed passenger side door. Only his shoulders and head are exposed above the top edge of the front seat. Platt�s upper face is barely visible as he�s shown laying face up in Matix�s lap with the top of his head pressing against Matix�s chest. The trajectory of Mireles shot number 3 is shown entering through the driver�s side window and hitting Matix in the left cheek.

Figure IV-9 (Matix face wound D) is a medical illustration that depicts a profile of the left side of Matix�s head with a detailed view of the skull. The wound path of Mireles bullet from shot number 3 is shown hitting and perforating the facial bone of Matix�s left cheek right next to the left nostril and below the cheekbone. Bullet fragments are depicted embedded in the left sinus cavity.

Figure IV-10 (Matix face wound D) is a photograph (black & white) of a bullet fragment recovered from Matix�s left facial area.

Figure IV-11 (Matix face wound D) is a photograph (black & white) of a bullet fragment recovered from Matix�s left sinus cavity.

Figure IV-12 (Matix face/spine wound C) is similar to Figure IV-6, except Mireles is has now turned to his left and has taken a couple steps as he directly approaches the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car. Matix and Platt are shown in the same positions on the front seat, however Matix is shown with his head tilted forward tucking his chin into his chest. The trajectory of the bullet from Mireles shot number 4 is shown leaving the muzzle of the revolver, passing through the driver�s side window and striking Matix in the right side of his head.

Figure IV-13 (Matix face/spine wound C) is an overhead close-up perspective illustration that details the body positions of Matix and Platt on the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car at the moment when Mireles fired the fourth shot from his revolver. The trajectory of the bullet is shown entering the driver�s side window, hitting Matix in the right side of his head, and the wound path of the bullet from the entry point to where it stopped embedded in the spinal column at the base of T1.

Figure IV-14 (Matix face/spine wound C) is an illustration that depicts a perspective of Matix and Platt as they would be seen by someone viewing them through the windshield of Grogan/Dove�s car. Matix is seen sitting on the front bench seat sideways, with his back against the inside surface of the closed passenger side door. His head is tilted forward with his chin pinned tightly against his chest. Platt is laying face up in Matix�s lap with the top of his head pressing against Matix�s chest. The trajectory of Mireles shot number 4 is shown entering through the driver�s side window, hitting Matix below the right eye, passing through his face and neck and stopping in the spinal column.

Figure IV-15 (Matix face/spine wound C) is a medical illustration that shows three different details. The upper illustration depicts a profile of the right side of Matix�s head and neck, with a detailed view of the skull and spinal column, as it would appear if he had his head tilted forward as postulated by Dr. Anderson. The wound path of Mireles bullet from shot number 4 is shown hitting and perforating the facial bone just below Matix�s right eye socket, passing though the maxillofacial structures of the skull, hitting the lower jaw bone, passing through the soft tissues of the neck, penetrating the spinal column between C7 and T1, and stopping between T1 and T2. The second illustration details the spinal column, from C4 to T3, as viewed from behind. The wound path of Mireles� bullet is shown chipping a small piece of bone off the right upper side of C7, entering the spinal column between C7 and T1, and penetrating T1 until it came to a stop at the base of T1. The third illustration details the right side of Matix�s skull showing Mireles� bullet hitting Matix�s face at the bottom right corner of the right eye socket, at a position of about 7 o�clock.

Figure IV-16 (Matix face/spine wound C) is a photograph (black & white) of two bullet fragments recovered from Matix�s spinal cord at T2.

Figure IV-17 is an autopsy x-ray of Matix�s head and neck showing bullet fragments in the sinus cavity (Matix face wound D), a bullet embedded in the left half of the spine (Matix face/spine wound C), a mushroomed bullet lodged in the neck just to the immediate right side of the spinal column (Matix face/neck wound A), and a small bullet fragment just below the mushroomed bullet (Matix right neck/chest wound B).

Figure IV-18 (Matix face/neck wound A) is similar to Figure IV-12, except Mireles has advanced a few more feet as he directly approaches the driver�s side door of Grogan/Dove�s car. Matix and Platt are shown in the same positions on the front seat. The trajectory of the bullet from Mireles shot number 5 is shown leaving the muzzle of the revolver, passing through the driver�s side window and striking Matix in the right side of his head.

Figure IV-19 (Matix face/neck wound A) is an overhead close-up perspective illustration that details the body positions of Matix and Platt on the front seat of Grogan/Dove�s car at the moment when Mireles fired the fifth shot fro



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Haven't read the Dr. Anderson's book, but according to the author, he doesn't investigate tactics, just the physiology of the wounds.

I have read, many times, the original FBI report, the coronors reports and several professional papers (not gun magazine articles).

I started in law enforcement in 1988 when all of the official reports were first being released so it was a topic of pretty intense study at academy at the time as well as all the LEO professional publications, so yes, I am as familiar with the incident as second-hand information will allow.

My contention is that Hanlon & Dove were unarmed, and untrained in how to continue combat after being disarmed. That makes their failure to react more understandable. Grogan is the puzzler, be cause he had the means to defend himself, and I contend, the opportunity (he had time to exclaim "oh, my god" before he was shot) but for some reason, was unable to. That is a "why" worth looking into further.


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Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Originally Posted by cumminscowboy
the reason I started this thread was to get the final answer on 9mm vs 40 S&W, it looks to me like the handgun cartridges of choice had little effect on the the outcome and if the 40 has been used probably wouldn't have even mattered. but double stack mags in say a full size glock would have made a big difference.

it was a different time back then and reliable semi autos were just coming on the market. yeah the 1911 was reliable at that time but only with ball ammo and as a result never caught on with LE agencies. the real problem like everyone is saying is rifle fire against pistol fire.

Cumminscowboy � You should read the FBI�s take on it: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You can debate every aspect of this shooting, and many very knowledgeable people on the subject have come to the same conclusion as you. But there have been many knowledgeable people who have come to the conclusion that it does matter. Some say the FBI used the Silvertip as the �scapegoat�. I think the FBI could have deflected some heat, but to just dismiss the fact that the FBI made a huge fundamental change in ammunition selection based on this incident, I think that would be an error in judgment. Like them or not, when the FBI does something they tend to be rather thorough.

Penetration is king, simple as that. But all must be balanced because too much penetration can be just as much of a liability as too little. You need to also consider that the FBI�s criteria is specifically for law enforcement, and some cartridges deemed sufficient for law enforcement could prove to have too much penetration for other applications such as home defense or concealed carry on the street. Since law enforcement often has to shoot through intermediate barriers, and citizens are rarely involved in a shooting that isn�t face to face, should make you think.

As to 9mm vs. .40, I�ve come to the conclusion that either cartridge will get the job done; so pick the one that blows your skirt up. Once you have made the choice, match the ammunition (mostly by weight) to the job. Let�s assume you�re limiting your choices to JHP�s made by major reputable manufacturers.

For law enforcement I would recommend bullet weights of:
9mm: 147
.40: 180
.45: 230

For concealed carry on the street:
9mm: 124-147
.40: 155-180
.45: 200-230

For home defense
9mm: 115-124
.40: 135-155
.45: 185-200

Now consider these are just rough recommendations based on �typical� scenarios. Each person needs to evaluate their threat level and the scenarios they are likely to encounter. I�m sure many would dispute my rule of thumb for bullet weight, but this is MY rule of thumb, not theirs.


Kevin,
My agency, the Kentucky State Police, has had very good results out of the Speer Gold Dot 155 grain .40 S&W out of Glock 35's. I wasn't part of the selection process on that particular pistol, but as I understand it, there was a staunch member or two of the selection committee who wanted to stay as close to the velocities we used to get out of our Smith and Wesson 1076's and 180 grain Gold Dots. Without a doubt, we ended up with the 1076 because of it's selection by the FBI. At any rate, we kept them far longer than the FBI did, and we shot lots of stuff with them. These days, I think most are better armed with the G35 and the 155 grain GoldDots. For my own use, I sorta miss my 10mm. Although I'd probably ask for 165 grain Gold Dots over the 180's we used to shoot.


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A cut and paste from your very long cut and paste:

At this point in the gunfight, Dove had relocated from behind the passenger side door of his car, around the back of the car and had taken a position near the driver's side door. (Dove�s gun, a S&W model 459 9mm automatic, had been hit by one of Platt�s bullets. Whether or not this occurred before or after he moved to the opposite side of the car is unknown.) Grogan had moved to occupy a position near the driver's side rear fender. Hanlon had fired his gun dry after shooting at Platt from around the passenger side rear fender/bumper and was hit by one of Platt�s bullets in his gun hand while reloading. Hanlon then rolled over onto his back behind the car. Within moments he saw Platt�s feet standing at the passenger side rear of the vehicle. Dr. Anderson states that it was at this time when Platt left large smears of blood as well as arterial blood spurt patterns on the rear of the vehicle. As Hanlon attempted to push himself under the left rear trunk to maximize his cover against Platt, he heard Grogan cry out, "Oh my God!" Platt killed Grogan with a single shot to the chest. Platt then rounded the rear fender, saw Hanlon, and fired one shot into Hanlon�s groin area. Hanlon rolled over onto right side into a fetal position expecting to be shot again and killed. However, Platt immediately shifted his attention to Dove, firing twice directly into Dove�s head. Dove instantly collapsed; his head coming to rest just inches away from Hanlon�s face. According to Dr. Anderson, Hanlon recalls that Platt fired several more rounds, apparently at Risner and Orrantia. The spent cases from Platt�s Mini-14 fell onto Hanlon�s body.



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Originally Posted by Gadfly
Haven't read the Dr. Anderson's book, but according to the author, he doesn't investigate tactics, just the physiology of the wounds.

I have read, many times, the original FBI report, the coronors reports and several professional papers (not gun magazine articles).

I started in law enforcement in 1988 when all of the official reports were first being released so it was a topic of pretty intense study at academy at the time as well as all the LEO professional publications, so yes, I am as familiar with the incident as second-hand information will allow.

My contention is that Hanlon & Dove were unarmed, and untrained in how to continue combat after being disarmed. That makes their failure to react more understandable. Grogan is the puzzler, be cause he had the means to defend himself, and I contend, the opportunity (he had time to exclaim "oh, my god" before he was shot) but for some reason, was unable to. That is a "why" worth looking into further.



You need to read want I posted it tells when and where each person was shot ( the timing in the gun fight of each wound}. A person can scream "oh my god" at the same time attempting to employ ones weapon. IMHO Grogan was shot while attempting to engage and not cowering as you suggest.




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Originally Posted by Gadfly
A cut and paste from your very long cut and paste:

At this point in the gunfight, Dove had relocated from behind the passenger side door of his car, around the back of the car and had taken a position near the driver's side door. (Dove�s gun, a S&W model 459 9mm automatic, had been hit by one of Platt�s bullets. Whether or not this occurred before or after he moved to the opposite side of the car is unknown.) Grogan had moved to occupy a position near the driver's side rear fender. Hanlon had fired his gun dry after shooting at Platt from around the passenger side rear fender/bumper and was hit by one of Platt�s bullets in his gun hand while reloading. Hanlon then rolled over onto his back behind the car. Within moments he saw Platt�s feet standing at the passenger side rear of the vehicle. Dr. Anderson states that it was at this time when Platt left large smears of blood as well as arterial blood spurt patterns on the rear of the vehicle. As Hanlon attempted to push himself under the left rear trunk to maximize his cover against Platt, he heard Grogan cry out, "Oh my God!" Platt killed Grogan with a single shot to the chest. Platt then rounded the rear fender, saw Hanlon, and fired one shot into Hanlon�s groin area. Hanlon rolled over onto right side into a fetal position expecting to be shot again and killed. However, Platt immediately shifted his attention to Dove, firing twice directly into Dove�s head. Dove instantly collapsed; his head coming to rest just inches away from Hanlon�s face. According to Dr. Anderson, Hanlon recalls that Platt fired several more rounds, apparently at Risner and Orrantia. The spent cases from Platt�s Mini-14 fell onto Hanlon�s body.



Your point assuming you have one?



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I think that that narrative (from your source)pretty well explains it.

Grogan, Dove, and Hanlon (by Hanlon's own testimony) had psychologically become non-combatants while combat still continued and a threat was still present, and they paid for it.



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Hanlon was out of ammo in his weapon, Dove fired 20 some odd rounds, and IMHO Grogan was killed attempting to engage.

Last edited by jwp475; 11/27/11.


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Dove performed exceptionally well up until the point his gun was disabled. Hanlon was actively engaged until he was wounded and unable to reload. Once they lost the use of their firearms, they were no longer physically or psychologically combatants. I contend that had they been trained similarly to Platt, they would have remained psychologically engaged and would have attempted some type of improvised offensive action against Platt. Hell, even throwing you useless gun at your attacker and rushing him his better than what happened to Hanlon & Dove.

You obliously are a "gun guy" and are heavilly invested in the idea of a firearm being your primary weapon. But are you prepared face life or death combat without a firearm. You had better be, because Miami, and numerous other LE shootings show that disabled shooting hands and disabled or lost firearms are not an uncommon occurrance. You better be psyhcologically prepared to fight with whatever you have left, be it only teeth and fingernails, if you want to survive.


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I contend that they did not have a chance to do those things when Pratt advance on them. I am not sure that they would have known until it was too late.

I have defended my self with nothing more than my wits and my hands

You should not jump to conclusions and not judge these brave men so harshly unless you have been in the same type scenario as they were faced with




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I've been in a scrape or two, and I reacted how I was trained to react. I shook like a dog schitting a peach seed after it was all over.

I am not denigrating the Agents or questioning their personal courage,their actions before becoming disarmed speak to their firearms skill and bravery under fire, but I am saying that the FBI failed to provide them with realistic combat training that could have helped them cope better with a highly dynamic combat situation after they lost the use of their firearms.


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The combat training at the time was for less than today, that is a given.



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Originally Posted by CrimsonTide
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
Originally Posted by cumminscowboy
the reason I started this thread was to get the final answer on 9mm vs 40 S&W, it looks to me like the handgun cartridges of choice had little effect on the the outcome and if the 40 has been used probably wouldn't have even mattered. but double stack mags in say a full size glock would have made a big difference.

it was a different time back then and reliable semi autos were just coming on the market. yeah the 1911 was reliable at that time but only with ball ammo and as a result never caught on with LE agencies. the real problem like everyone is saying is rifle fire against pistol fire.

Cumminscowboy � You should read the FBI�s take on it: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You can debate every aspect of this shooting, and many very knowledgeable people on the subject have come to the same conclusion as you. But there have been many knowledgeable people who have come to the conclusion that it does matter. Some say the FBI used the Silvertip as the �scapegoat�. I think the FBI could have deflected some heat, but to just dismiss the fact that the FBI made a huge fundamental change in ammunition selection based on this incident, I think that would be an error in judgment. Like them or not, when the FBI does something they tend to be rather thorough.

Penetration is king, simple as that. But all must be balanced because too much penetration can be just as much of a liability as too little. You need to also consider that the FBI�s criteria is specifically for law enforcement, and some cartridges deemed sufficient for law enforcement could prove to have too much penetration for other applications such as home defense or concealed carry on the street. Since law enforcement often has to shoot through intermediate barriers, and citizens are rarely involved in a shooting that isn�t face to face, should make you think.

As to 9mm vs. .40, I�ve come to the conclusion that either cartridge will get the job done; so pick the one that blows your skirt up. Once you have made the choice, match the ammunition (mostly by weight) to the job. Let�s assume you�re limiting your choices to JHP�s made by major reputable manufacturers.

For law enforcement I would recommend bullet weights of:
9mm: 147
.40: 180
.45: 230

For concealed carry on the street:
9mm: 124-147
.40: 155-180
.45: 200-230

For home defense
9mm: 115-124
.40: 135-155
.45: 185-200

Now consider these are just rough recommendations based on �typical� scenarios. Each person needs to evaluate their threat level and the scenarios they are likely to encounter. I�m sure many would dispute my rule of thumb for bullet weight, but this is MY rule of thumb, not theirs.


Kevin,
My agency, the Kentucky State Police, has had very good results out of the Speer Gold Dot 155 grain .40 S&W out of Glock 35's. I wasn't part of the selection process on that particular pistol, but as I understand it, there was a staunch member or two of the selection committee who wanted to stay as close to the velocities we used to get out of our Smith and Wesson 1076's and 180 grain Gold Dots. Without a doubt, we ended up with the 1076 because of it's selection by the FBI. At any rate, we kept them far longer than the FBI did, and we shot lots of stuff with them. These days, I think most are better armed with the G35 and the 155 grain GoldDots. For my own use, I sorta miss my 10mm. Although I'd probably ask for 165 grain Gold Dots over the 180's we used to shoot.


why the glock 35, isn't that more of a competition gun, or range gun?? why not a glock 22 or 23??

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