Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns '86 miami shootout

Oh and on the subject of Jeff's preference for fixed power scopes. To this day, I still prefer the simple fixed power scope. They're lighter, brighter, and tougher than the variables. Get to know your simople fixed scope well and you're not giving up much by choosing it over the variable (even though variables are excellent scopes these days).

Fine defensive weapon, straight up. I tend to trust my M1 Carbine over anything else, because I've put oodles of rounds through it, and I know how utterly reliable it is. And when you stuff it with something other than FMJ, it packs a mean punch; especially with that new Corbon/Barnes load.

I wonder what the outcome would have been if the FBI actually had 357mag ammunition instead of the 38+ ... something to think about.

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his azz when he hopped!

While not true to the definition, a M4 with an aimpoint is a scout rifle.

Rapid expanding, lightweight, 9mm ammo had something to do with it too. All they needed to do was to switch to a better 9mm loading.

The silvertip performed very well in the situation penetrating a forearm and entering the chest if I recall right. It happened that luck was on the bad guys side that day. The FBI made several mistakes tactically and overall just underestimated their adversary which cost them dearly. It is a great case study and a lot can be learned from this shootout among others.

If memory serves Pratt was 6"-0 or so 180 pounds and the bullet failed to reach the heart. Here we have a man that is not large and the penetration was inadequate. IMHO and experience that is a failure of not enough penetration pure and simple

No, not even close. By definition, it must be adequate for game up to 400 kilos. I attended Randy Cain's Practical Rifle Class with a gal who'd been there about five times IIRC. She had a lightened 700 with a KDF'd 16in #1 barrel in a Lone Wolf stock, wearing a 1.5x5 Leupy. She was hell on wheels with that thing. She could go prone and dump a man at 200yd before you could say don't. Her husband took her to Africa with her little 308. She dumped five head of plains game with one round of 308 light magnum per critter.

Here's the deal. If you want rifle that hits like Thor's hammer, and handles like a 20gauge quail gun, it can't be gas gun.

only one problem with your thinking. nothing is shooting at you in anything you describe. if bad guys are shooting at you. you WILL want a semi auto, why do you think the military quit using bolt guns during WW2?? if they were so great at handling bad guys why isn't the 1903 still king. remember most bad guys are not standing there in the open and ready to be shot. they are firing at you. you peak out fire one round and have to move the gun totally away from around the corner to work the bolt. a semi just keeps pouring fire and if the bad guy shows himself he has a round in him. the problem with bolt guns is you have to totally move off target to work the bolt.

in a short range battle inside 20 yards, I think I would choose a glock with a couple of full mags over ANY bolt gun.

What part of "not true to the definition" was not clear?

The Wiki definition
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

Well, if it's 20yd and your adversary has been to Gunsite 270 you'll die quickly.

Some guys can't bring themselves to unass an airplane, especially at night. A lot of the same guys can jump for years and they can't hang out of the door to jumpmaster for fear of falling(?!!!). That suppressive fire schit doesn't work on everybody, some will stand toe to toe with you. You have to straight up kill some folks.

If suppressive didn't work then I'd be able to put multiple rounds on target quickly with a semi auto

An accurate semi auto trumps a bolt gun on all fronts in a tactile situation. That is why they are the weapon of choice

I guess he who writes the rules wins. What has that got to do with gunfighting? What relevance does that have to people living in the U.S.?

My old Chief Deputy (2 tour 'nam vet) used to tell us before we went on a search warrant "know the difference between cover and concealment.

If they weren't suppressed then they are getting shot......straight up killed folk they would be...

another example of, its is the person behind the weapon who wins more than the weapon you choice to use.

Isn't this a discussion about the Miami shootout where a dedicated individual used a Mini 14 for suppressive and lethal fire against a larger force? It probably took three agents to total 400 Kilos in weight though. Attending a Gunsite class does not guarantee success in a gunfight, only helps those with the right mindset.

An unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3 kg (6.6 lbs); with 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lbs)M4 check the maximum acceptable.

An overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.) or less.M4 check

A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooter's peripheral vision, keeps the ejection port open to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory.M4 Check

Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight.M4 check

A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.)M4 check

A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO or 7mm-08 Remington for locales that forbid civilian ownership of cartridges in chamberings adopted by military forces or for its "slightly better ballistics."[2] As Cooper wrote, "A true Scout comes in .308 or 7mm-08."[3] The .243 Winchester is an alternative for young, small-framed, or recoil-shy people, but needs a 22" barrel. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge.M4 lacking

Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).M4 check

These features dictated short, thin barrels, synthetic stocks, and bolt actions. Other optional features included a retractable bipod, detachable magazines, a butt magazine, and an accessory rail for lights and other attachments. The addition of some of these features often render the rifle technically not a scout as originally defined, but this has come to be accepted by many as still conforming to the spirit if not the letter of the concept.M4 check

You fellas might want to consider moving your scout-rifle debate the Tactical and AR Forum. More folks who have an opinion on such toopics are likely to see it there and weigh in.

Just a suggestion.

Oh, sure. Which combat style semi auto ? It has a scope, a nice trigger and weighs about 7 lbs. ?
Jeff Cooper took his Scout Rifle to the US Marine Rapid Reaction Course in So. Kalifornia and left with his fellow marines armed with M-16's in second place. Would that be a little different scenario than your force on force exercises ?
Again, you guys are assuming you need to supress the bad guys with lots of ammo. What ever happend to single hits ? I suspect that a .308 will stop quite well with just one hit.
BTW, Cooper's shooting school taught shooting quickly under stress and making single hits. Mind Set was an attitude he tried to instill.
Which is very useful. It means being situation aware or what I refer to as seeing it coming.
Last of all, I don't keep a combat rifle and a stack of extra magazines around waiting for a gunfight. But I do have several hunting rifles which I do shoot regularly. If I need to use a rifle for gun fighting, I suspect a rifle I know and shoot well is the way to go. E