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Ah, no, he "meant" 308 Winchester/7.62mm x 51mm NATO. He said exactly that about 20 million times. He opined that the 7/08 was a good substitute only in countries where it was illegal to own a 308.
Nope, he liked the .30-30, too, in the Winchester Model 94, with a forward scope. True but he opined that that chambering was quite marginal for his self-imposed 400K critter rule. The levergun's downside is the same as a shotgun's, it is painfully slow to top off. I'm glad you brought this up though, a trapper levergun in 44mag would also have ended this shootout post-haste. It doesn't have the Scout Rifle's range but has decent mag capacity and one well-placed round will do. Cooper called this the "Brooklyn Special".
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Any rifle in the FBI'S hands would have been better than the short barrel 357 loaded with 38 spl Ammo. In their situation i would have taken the AR over any bolt gun available even tho the Ruger New Scout 308 with open sights may have worked.. Even the 30 MI Carbine would have been a better option than any pistol against a Mini-14 . I truely believe the FBI would have still been the losers regardless of the weapons they should have been armed with because they didn't have the mind set the bad guys had and this made the difference.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I'm glad you brought this up though, a trapper levergun in 44mag would also have ended this shootout post-haste. It doesn't have the Scout Rifle's range but has decent mag capacity and one well-placed round will do. Cooper called this the "Brooklyn Special". [/quote]
Or... an AR! I don't understand some posters desire to arm leo's with late 19th cowboy guns or modern deer rifles? Why not go into a shootout with a modern day combat rifle?? Mr. Cooper a good guy but he was NOT god! Time had long sinced past him by. The Miami shootout was not the OK Correl! Good greaf.
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Campfire Sage
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Mr. Cooper a good guy but he was NOT god! BLASPHEMY!!!
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Campfire Regular
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Mr. Cooper a good guy but he was NOT god! So YOU claim!
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The Miami shootout was not the OK Correl! So YOU say!
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm not aware of the term "Scout Rifle" being in common usage, anywhere, by anyone, until the COL both coined and defined the term, it is what it is, and what you think means nothing. Dogmatic? Ya think? You obviously didn't read much of what Cooper wrote, I suggest you do so in order to appear somewhat less silly in the future.
Well, TAK... it appears that in your estimation no one can discuss the term "scout rifle" unless they accept the Colonel's definition as the final definition, with no further debate as to what the term might mean in a world where guns and ammunition (not to mention tactics!) are continually evolving. Well, that dog won't hunt. Jeff Cooper may have put forward the concept of a "scout rifle" 20+ years ago, and he may have been the chief proponent of the Modern Technique of the Pistol, but other people with good ideas and good skills have come along since and modified these things. For example: Jeff Cooper loved the Weaver stance. But none of the guys currently winning IPSC, IDPA, or 3-Gun matches are Weaver stance guys. Another example: Jeff founded Gunsite. But I know personally and have taken instruction from at least 3 guys who were Gunsite instructors at one time or another, and have moved on to found their own schools of instruction. Just because Cooper coined the term "scout rifle" doesn't mean the generally accepted definition of that concept can't be debated or changed as current practitioners of the combat arts see fit. If you want to keep it pristine in honor of the Colonel's memory, you go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of the shooting world to march in lockstep with you.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A properly built Ar-15/M-16 is capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy, so 1 shot kills are easily obtain with faster repeat shots for quicker target acquisition and a large magazine capacity. Also faster to reload when the need arises
I doubt Cooper meant eye socket shots, or a .22 lr would qualify too. Ah, no, he "meant" 308 Winchester/7.62mm x 51mm NATO. He said exactly that about 20 million times. He opined that the 7/08 was a good substitute only in countries where it was illegal to own a 308. Jeff Cooper also said a zillion times that the 1911 in 45 ACP is the finest fighting pistol in the world. take_a_knee you don't seem to agree with that statement, since you are a "Glock" man The AR platform is a suppirior fighting rifle to any bolt action type when chambered in 6.8 or 6.5
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The AR platform is a suppirior fighting rifle to any bolt action type when chambered in 6.8 or 6.5
I wouldn't quibble if you gave it to me in 5.56. Neither would Pat Rogers or Tim Lau, both former Gunsite instructors.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Id rather have the gun in 5.56, personally. The round is very effective, especially in its 62 and newer 77gr iterations. The standby 55gr loadings however, when coupled with modern bullet technology, are completely adequate.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Any rifle in the FBI'S hands would have been better than the short barrel 357 loaded with 38 spl Ammo. In their situation i would have taken the AR over any bolt gun available even tho the Ruger New Scout 308 with open sights may have worked.. Even the 30 MI Carbine would have been a better option than any pistol against a Mini-14 . I truely believe the FBI would have still been the losers regardless of the weapons they should have been armed with because they didn't have the mind set the bad guys had and this made the difference. +1 Chances are you wont see this again. SWAT team are used for these take downs. When you know there is a high potential for a shootout, bring enough people, enough firepower and training / people who train together and a plan. This is nothing new the NYPD STAKE OUT UNIT delt with this kind of activity on a daily basis. They trained hard brought the best equipment they had and went into it with the mindset the [bleep] was going to hit the fan. They were trained for the worst and ready for it on every op. If this link doesn't come through it is worth searching, about half way in it talks about deadly force encounters. ◦Pro Arms Podcast 10 � Bill Allard Interview
"Fast is fine accurate is final"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The AR platform is a suppirior fighting rifle to any bolt action type when chambered in 6.8 or 6.5
I wouldn't quibble if you gave it to me in 5.56. Neither would Pat Rogers or Tim Lau, both former Gunsite instructors. True, using today's gear, but todays' gear didn't exist in 86, or was scarce as hen's teeth. A Daniel Defense/LMT with an Aimpoint and 77gr SMK's is a fight stopper, because you can quickly get effective, fatal hits at those engagement ranges. An iron sited A1 loaded 55gr would not have been my choice but it certainly would have evened the odds. I still have to wonder if anything short of a 308 TAP would have taken the fight out of Platt, that's why the Scout stays on my list. JWP, Cooper begrudgingly accepted the Glock as a proper fighting pistol, he saw it as having no "soul" in comparison to the 1911, the gun he carried in two wars. He never accepted the 9mm as a proper defensive round, to my knowledge. But lots of his former instructors did and carry 9mm Glocks every day. I'm certain you realize that the 9mm ammo in Coopers' heyday doesn't compare to what we have today.
Last edited by Take_a_knee; 12/04/11. Reason: spellin'
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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JWP, Cooper begrudgingly accepted the Glock as a proper fighting pistol, he saw it as having no "soul" in comparison to the 1911, the gun he carried in two wars. He never accepted the 9mm as a proper defensive round, to my knowledge. But lots of his former instructors did and carry 9mm Glocks every day. I'm certain you realize that the 9mm ammo in Coopers' heyday doesn't compare to what we have today. Cooper also considered the 230 grain truncated cone flat point the prefered load in .45 ACP. He wasn't always right.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Oh, sure. Which combat style semi auto ? It has a scope, a nice trigger and weighs about 7 lbs. ?
Jeff Cooper took his Scout Rifle to the US Marine Rapid Reaction Course in So. Kalifornia and left with his fellow marines armed with M-16's in second place. Would that be a little different scenario than your force on force exercises ?
Again, you guys are assuming you need to supress the bad guys with lots of ammo. What ever happend to single hits ? I suspect that a .308 will stop quite well with just one hit.
BTW, Cooper's shooting school taught shooting quickly under stress and making single hits. Mind Set was an attitude he tried to instill.
Which is very useful. It means being situation aware or what I refer to as seeing it coming.
Last of all, I don't keep a combat rifle and a stack of extra magazines around waiting for a gunfight. But I do have several hunting rifles which I do shoot regularly. If I need to use a rifle for gun fighting, I suspect a rifle I know and shoot well is the way to go. E Cooper's experience is Cooper's experience; my experience is my experience. I'm not speaking for Jeff Cooper, I'm speaking for Kevin Gibson. MY observations in force on force training with semi-auto weapons is that suppressive fire is used quite often to get the upper hand; even if that wasn't the intention of the rifleman in question. Look there's a reason every military organization in the world uses semi-auto rifles. I'm all for dropping one round where needed, but if you miss with that one round (a high liklihood if someone's shooting a high volume of fire your way), then while you're working your bolt, the other guy just cranked off 3 rounds, some or all could have found their mark. I don't care what Jeff Cooper or any other instructor says, I'll take a semi-auto against a manual action rifle every time if I know there's a fight coming.
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Campfire Regular
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...I don't care what Jeff Cooper or any other instructor says, I'll take a semi-auto against a manual action rifle every time if I know there's a fight coming. ...it's been decades since I was in an infantry unit and later doing police weapons training, so at my "sloppy civilian" stage of life, "if I know there's a fight coming," I'll be somewhere else when it arrives. :-) FWIW, if Jeff Cooper knew a fight was coming, he wouldn't have chosen a Scout Rifle to defend himself with either. Regarding the term "scout rifle"--it's not like the term "match barrel" with handguns or "pigeon grade" with shotguns which mean whatever the manufacturer wants it to. Cooper went to extraordinary length to define exactly what it was (or more appropriately what it was NOT). To say that a certain rifle doesn't meet the definition but is still a Scout rifle is like saying that a gorilla isn't a man, but he's still a human being. It's like being a little bit pregnant--it is or it isn't. Unfortunately the term "Scout Rifle" has become to many like the term "series 70" has been bastardized to mean any 1911 without a firing pin safety (which it isn't).
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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like the term "series 70" has been bastardized to mean any 1911 without a firing pin safety (which it isn't). Colt is to blame for that common confusion.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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JWP, Cooper begrudgingly accepted the Glock as a proper fighting pistol, he saw it as having no "soul" in comparison to the 1911, the gun he carried in two wars. He never accepted the 9mm as a proper defensive round, to my knowledge. But lots of his former instructors did and carry 9mm Glocks every day. I'm certain you realize that the 9mm ammo in Coopers' heyday doesn't compare to what we have today. Cooper also considered the 230 grain truncated cone flat point the prefered load in .45 ACP. He wasn't always right. In the 70's/80's that was probably the best 45acp load in existence. He had too many students who'd shot people with hydrashocks that didn't work as designed.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I'm not aware of the term "Scout Rifle" being in common usage, anywhere, by anyone, until the COL both coined and defined the term, it is what it is, and what you think means nothing. Dogmatic? Ya think? You obviously didn't read much of what Cooper wrote, I suggest you do so in order to appear somewhat less silly in the future.
Well, TAK... it appears that in your estimation no one can discuss the term "scout rifle" unless they accept the Colonel's definition as the final definition, with no further debate as to what the term might mean in a world where guns and ammunition (not to mention tactics!) are continually evolving. Well, that dog won't hunt. Jeff Cooper may have put forward the concept of a "scout rifle" 20+ years ago, and he may have been the chief proponent of the Modern Technique of the Pistol, but other people with good ideas and good skills have come along since and modified these things. For example: Jeff Cooper loved the Weaver stance. But none of the guys currently winning IPSC, IDPA, or 3-Gun matches are Weaver stance guys. Another example: Jeff founded Gunsite. But I know personally and have taken instruction from at least 3 guys who were Gunsite instructors at one time or another, and have moved on to found their own schools of instruction. Just because Cooper coined the term "scout rifle" doesn't mean the generally accepted definition of that concept can't be debated or changed as current practitioners of the combat arts see fit. If you want to keep it pristine in honor of the Colonel's memory, you go right ahead. But don't expect the rest of the shooting world to march in lockstep with you. Thanks Doc for articulating what I have tried to these past several pages. Platt was quickly the only combatant in this melee and it clearly shows what the Scout rifle is capable of. I am not being derogatory to Jeff Cooper when I point this out, as he was right about his concept all along. The mention of the M4 as a scout rifle honors Jeff Cooper, not demeans him!
NRA Life Member
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...The mention of the M4 as a scout rifle honors Jeff Cooper, not demeans him! ....I don't know if it honors or demeans him, but I know for certain that it would piss him off! BTW, do you know Paul at the Wet Grocer in Gunnison? Great guy, big time fly fisherman and aspiring rifleman and wine sommelier extraordinare!
Last edited by gmoats; 12/05/11.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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