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It is difficult for some people to mentally separate the German Army from the National Socialist (Nazi) Party - especially after 65 years. Or the German people from the Party, for that matter.

Perhaps that is because the Nazi Party was like a horrific wreck: you can't take your eyes off it BECAUSE it is horrific.


Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

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In my opinion, people who are filled with hate like to identify with the nazi ideology as they feel it gives credence to their own feelings and desires.

The german army of WWII is highly regarded by a lot of folks into military history, and I believe for the most part those folks are more admiring the pure military aspects (training, equipment, tactics, etc) and not really the nazi ideology.


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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Given the fact that we WERE allied with a far worse butcher that pov is less than sterling. Ability and skill was a hallmark of the German Military. I assure you that Germany was beaten more by absolutely overwhelming numbers of everything than any superiority in skills and weapons.


+1.



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German weapons and tactics were good, but I do not believe that they were as superior or original as everyone thinks. The Germans biggest asset was that they could adapt to the situation well. Their biggest weapon/technology advantage was to put radios in tanks. While the west was using hand signals in armored warfare, the Germans used radios. The French tanks were superior to German tanks in armor and firepower so the Germans adapted and used the 88 to eliminate French tanks. They may have actually picked this up from the Pole's who used 40mm Bofors guns against German tanks in September of 1939. The Germans made use of dive bombers for ground support but this was a tactic that was pioneered by the United States Marine Corps. US Navy and Marine Corps dive bomber pilots were the best in the world. While the German 88 was good, The US 90mm, British 3.7" and Soviet 85mm AA guns were just as good. When the Allies ran into superior German tanks they adapted and countered with rocket armed P-47 Thunderbolts, Hawker Typhoons and Ilysuion Stormivks. The US P-80 was superior to the ME-262 and if the war had lasted longer they would have met in combat. The US M26 Peshing was capable of taking on the Panther and Tiger on equal terms. The M4 Sherman and T34 were equal to the German MkIV panzer. American artillery was actuall the best in the world. For all of its prowess and techincal ability on land, the Germans lagged behind the Allies and Japan and Italy on the seas.

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Don, you idiot.

Ideology has nothing to do with technology or capability.





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I have doubts about the superiority of German weapons; most German soldiers carried the 98K, I would prefer a Garand any time. The high cyclic rate of the vaunted MG42 simply used up ammo rapidly and made it difficult to control and hit anything.

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I'd not say they were small arms were vastly superior, but their armor and the 88 was.


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MG-42 vs. BAR. Not even a contest. Their Sturmgewehr 44; we had nothing even close. MP38/MP40 vs. grease gun? Not even close.

Those are the three that spring immediately to mind.




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Originally Posted by ar15a292f
German weapons and tactics were good, but I do not believe that they were as superior or original as everyone thinks. The Germans biggest asset was that they could adapt to the situation well. Their biggest weapon/technology advantage was to put radios in tanks. While the west was using hand signals in armored warfare, the Germans used radios. The French tanks were superior to German tanks in armor and firepower so the Germans adapted and used the 88 to eliminate French tanks. They may have actually picked this up from the Pole's who used 40mm Bofors guns against German tanks in September of 1939. The Germans made use of dive bombers for ground support but this was a tactic that was pioneered by the United States Marine Corps. US Navy and Marine Corps dive bomber pilots were the best in the world. While the German 88 was good, The US 90mm, British 3.7" and Soviet 85mm AA guns were just as good. When the Allies ran into superior German tanks they adapted and countered with rocket armed P-47 Thunderbolts, Hawker Typhoons and Ilysuion Stormivks. The US P-80 was superior to the ME-262 and if the war had lasted longer they would have met in combat. The US M26 Peshing was capable of taking on the Panther and Tiger on equal terms. The M4 Sherman and T34 were equal to the German MkIV panzer. American artillery was actuall the best in the world. For all of its prowess and techincal ability on land, the Germans lagged behind the Allies and Japan and Italy on the seas.


You just pegged their advantage in generals and command.

As to lagging behind on the seas... Bismarck, anyone? U-boats?




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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
Given the fact that we WERE allied with a far worse butcher that pov is less than sterling. Ability and skill was a hallmark of the German Military. I assure you that Germany was beaten more by absolutely overwhelming numbers of everything than any superiority in skills and weapons.


Yep. In a war of attrition, it ain't good to be outnumbered nearly 10:1.




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Originally Posted by ar15a292f
German weapons and tactics were good, but I do not believe that they were as superior or original as everyone thinks. The Germans biggest asset was that they could adapt to the situation well. Their biggest weapon/technology advantage was to put radios in tanks. While the west was using hand signals in armored warfare, the Germans used radios. The French tanks were superior to German tanks in armor and firepower so the Germans adapted and used the 88 to eliminate French tanks. They may have actually picked this up from the Pole's who used 40mm Bofors guns against German tanks in September of 1939. The Germans made use of dive bombers for ground support but this was a tactic that was pioneered by the United States Marine Corps. US Navy and Marine Corps dive bomber pilots were the best in the world. While the German 88 was good, The US 90mm, British 3.7" and Soviet 85mm AA guns were just as good. When the Allies ran into superior German tanks they adapted and countered with rocket armed P-47 Thunderbolts, Hawker Typhoons and Ilysuion Stormivks. The US P-80 was superior to the ME-262 and if the war had lasted longer they would have met in combat. The US M26 Peshing was capable of taking on the Panther and Tiger on equal terms. The M4 Sherman and T34 were equal to the German MkIV panzer. American artillery was actuall the best in the world. For all of its prowess and techincal ability on land, the Germans lagged behind the Allies and Japan and Italy on the seas.
True on all points but The German weapons were superior at the BEGINNING of the war, We developed superior weapon During the war. American USE of artillery was far superior.

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Their fighter planes were superior, so was their unequaled rocket technology and they were close to developing the A bomb.

Small details count too : their infantry helmet was the best, while the British helmet was the worst.


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The Bismarck was sunk by British battle ships Rodney and King George V. The Bismarck was a decent battleship, but among 1930's designed and built battleships she inferior to the American North Carolina, South Dakota and Iowa class battle ships, the British King George V class, the Japanese Yamato class and the French Richelue class. She was probably equal to the Italian Vitterio Veneto class. While German subs were very good, they did ultimately lose the battle of the Atlantic. US subs were able to decimate the Japanese merchant shipping and strangle Japan.

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The Bismarck was sunk only because the sea planes got VERY lucky and landed exactly one torpedo in the rudder assembly. You might want to consider re-examining exactly how much damage she took (and withstood), what her capabilities were, and how it stacked up against the other ships of the day.

As for the German subs losing, again, in a war of attrition, you can't afford to be outnumbered that greatly.

US subs vs. Japanese merchant vessels, is a very, very poor comparison.




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Originally Posted by SU35
Quote
I read in another place where someone said the best ten generals of WW2 were 'german'.


Yes, there is some truth to that with the top two Generals of the war carrying German sirnames.

Eisenhower
Patton

And yes, the Germans did know how to build a gun.
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Not even in the same league.


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I dissagree that there fighter planes were superior. Up to the battle of Britian the Luftwaffe was the undisputed master of the skies, in numbers quality and tactics. In the battle of Britian the had superior numbers, equal aircraft and inferior tactics. The lost the battle of Britian due to stupidity in tactics and poor intelligence. If they had knocked out the British radar and continued to pund fighter command bases they would have won through attrition. Instead they gave up on radar installations after two weeks and just as they had fighter command on the ropes, they let up and started bombing cities. Their helmet was the best, as was their gpmg, the MG42. The British helemt evolved and was much better toward the end of the war. The British paratrooper helmet was very good, similar to the German one.

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Originally Posted by ar15a292f
I dissagree that there fighter planes were superior. Up to the battle of Britian the Luftwaffe was the undisputed master of the skies, in numbers quality and tactics. In the battle of Britian the had superior numbers, equal aircraft and inferior tactics. The lost the battle of Britian due to stupidity in tactics and poor intelligence. If they had knocked out the British radar and continued to pund fighter command bases they would have won through attrition. Instead they gave up on radar installations after two weeks and just as they had fighter command on the ropes, they let up and started bombing cities. Their helmet was the best, as was their gpmg, the MG42. The British helemt evolved and was much better toward the end of the war. The British paratrooper helmet was very good, similar to the German one.


Okay, so if they had air supremacy prior to the Battle of Britain, and lost it only because of poor tactics and intel, HOW does that negate the fact that even the Brits (who engaged them in that battle) were of the mind that the German aircraft were superior?





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Originally Posted by VAnimrod
The Bismarck was sunk only because the sea planes got VERY lucky and landed exactly one torpedo in the rudder assembly. You might want to consider re-examining exactly how much damage she took (and withstood), what her capabilities were, and how it stacked up against the other ships of the day.

As for the German subs losing, again, in a war of attrition, you can't afford to be outnumbered that greatly.

US subs vs. Japanese merchant vessels, is a very, very poor comparison.


He is absolutely right regarding the Bismarck Sean. It was an upgrade of a WWI design and the US and Brit BBs mentioned were better armored and superior guns, particularly the US BBs. Yes she received a lucky hit enabling the RN to catch her. The reason she took so much to sink is because the RN was anxious (and low on fuel) and closed the range, effectively shooting through and over the armored belt. It is important to note, the first salvo from HMS Rodney(16" guns) completely penetrated Bismarck's "B" turret and combined fire from her and KGV (14" guns) had no problem defeating the Bismarck's turret armor. Incidentally, the Bismarck's armored belt was 12" of Krupp AAA nickel-chrome steel and top of the line but KGV's 16" belt afforded better protection. a similar thing happened to the Prince Of Wales of Malaya, but the Bismarck has been overly hyped throughout the years.

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Originally Posted by deersmeller
Their fighter planes were superior, so was their unequaled rocket technology and they were close to developing the A bomb.

Small details count too : their infantry helmet was the best, while the British helmet was the worst.


Nope, when comparing apples to apples (piston engines). The Spitfire evolved and always stayed ahead of comparable German fighters. For example, when the FW 190 first came out, it was superior to the Spitfire V, but the Brits developed the IX and subsequesnt Marks that always stayed ahead. The P-51 Mustang was far and away much better than anything the Germans fielded. And during the Battle OF Britain, the Spitfire was slightly superior to the 109 and blew by it with subsequent models which the 109 was never able to keep up.


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Sometimes improved technolgy is a disadvantage. The Bi-winged planes that torpedoed the Bismarck couldn't be tracked be the German weapons systen because the planes flew so SLOW.

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