Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns IWB users - question

+1...the problem with hitting/pushing small retention buttons is that that movement is somewhere between a complex and a fine motor skill, which will be difficult to perform with a heart beat rate above 145 and almost impossible to accomplish under duress with a heart beat rate above 175. A good read for anyone interested in shooting beyond a casual, shallow depth is Bruce Siddle's, Sharpening the Warriors Edge and Dave Grossman's On Combat. They can be mastered by intense training, but being able to do it in practice with a heart beat rate elevated by exercise is different than being able to do it in a confrontation with an heart beat rate elevated by fear and/or an adrenaline dump.

If you're talking about that idiot that shot himself in the leg with the 1911, that was 100% his fault (and he admits it). He clearly pulled the trigger as the gun was coming out of the holster.

Jstall,

With respect, here is an example of how I view the Milt Sparks crew as being ripped off.

The Summer Special, first brought to thousands of cops and CCW holders by Sparks.

Now we have the....

El Paso Saddlery. Summer Cruiser

Galco. Summer Comfort

Aker. DEA IWB

Desantis. Cozy Partner

Wilson Combat. Summer Comfort ( I will note that I highly doubt that this was a "rip off" as owners of both companies are friends)

Bulldog custom Gunleather. Summer Special.

Bulldog did not even change the name. In fact if you do a google search, you will see side by side pics with theirs and Sparks holsters. Very blatant.

Leather Arsenal, Surprise Special.

In fact Elmer McEvoy (Leather Arsenal)used to work for Sparks and only moved 20 minutes down the road. I know very little of the gentleman. I have seen a couple of his products and they were pretty good rigs.

All of these designs pass the scratch and sniff test to me as copying the Sparks crew. When Sparks was not the designer, he went to the designer and asked permission and gave credit where credit was due. That has not been the case since.

Tony and the crew are class acts however and simply continue to make fine holsters and gear.

This was not meant to start an arguement, I am just pointing out my observations.

With respect.

MS.

I thought Bruce Nelson introduced the "Summer Special", but in any event that was my whole point. How can you say no one else can make any holster that resembles a Summer Special. ALL holster makers have done their interpretation of someone else's holster design. Take for example the Tom Threepersons design of 1923, it is the most copied holster design of all time or close to it.

This is off of Milt Sparks webite: Bruce Nelson's Professional is one of the most copied holster designs of all time, second only to his "Summer Special".
I'm not trying to start an argument here, just saying that everybody has copied everybody's design in one form or another

I would like to comment on this, as I agree and disagree ...

First, I am issued a Serpa duty rig and it is easy enough under stress to get your firearm out. I would disagree about the fine motor skills part.

Due to prior training with other holsters and the nature of my draw, I do not curl my finger, hitting the button with just the tip of my finger. I keep my finger straight and slap the whole button with my whole finger, that way when I draw my gun, my finger is still straight and naturaly aligns alongside the frame of the firearm.

The one great thing about the holster is the fast retention. This is very critical. Many here may not think about it, but a fast and secure reholster is far more important to many who carry a gun in a professional capacity, than a fast draw.

In my career I have very, very rarely needed a quick draw, as I more often than not was getting paid to look for trouble in the first place, found it and was addressing it. In these encounters, situational awareness told my pea brain to draw my gun BEFORE I really needed it in a bad way.

Back to the reholster. Quite often, when a gun is out, a situation is dynamic and a situation has changed to where you need to go hands on with someone (fighting, handcuffing, whatever), or manipulate doors, children, vehicles, spouses, whatever, and you need a very fast and secure way to retain your handgun that will be difficult for an unauthorized person to gain access to it. The SERPA with a retention hood is great for that.

FYI The concealed carry version (non paddle)has a track record of breaking away from belts. I am a weapon retention instructor. At a class, going slow, trying to learn proper technique, rather than brute strength, which would come later during practical exercises, we were breaking them right off the belts.

I broke one off the belt of the person I was teamed up with. I was not physically trying to take the gun. I simply put a firm grasp on his gun while in the holster and had him begin to slowly go through the proper moves at slow speed, learning the form and technique.

I ended up handing him his gun back, still in the holster.

There are numerous examples of dirt and debris getting into the safety latch and prevent users from drawing their pistol. There are a few videos on the net floating around. I am sure a 5 minute youtube search would reveal all one would care to watch.

Given the choice, I would stay away.

I might have missed it, but I don't think anyone said that. Calling the dozens of 'Summer Special' style holsters a "rip off" is accurate - same with all the Threepersons copies.

Heck, most modern gun 'designs' are nothing more than rip offs of someone else's work. Even certain elements of the Hi-Power are a rip off of the 1911 - FN waited for Colt patents to expire. In effect, John Browning ripped off John Browning.

OK, well it looks to me like everybody is ripping off everybody, so there shouldn't be a problem.

If you're wrong in your assessment you just reholster. I get arrested for brandishing.

What's the scoop on managing the Serpa release with gloves on?

Ahhh, stay the [bleep] away from the thing and get a Safariland ALS

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing to Mackay---that
a) using your finger to depress the button/lever is by definition a "fine motor skill" or
b)disagreeing that fine motor skills diminish with elevated heart beat????

Regarding option a---it's just a clinical definition (unlike the "Scout Rifle" discussion of a week ago)---the use of the muscles in the fingers falls under the catagory of "fine" vs. "gross" motor skills.

Regarding option b---the heart beat rate at which the loss of fine motor skills occurrs will vary from person to person, but it's universal that it will take place at some level of heart beat rate.

As mentioned, this can be addressed with training, and I'm guessing that based on your background and intrinsic interest, you're able to manipulate the button under stress, but I doubt that you're "normal" or at least "typical" of what the average concealed carry citizen will experience.

JMO, YMMV.

On Combat by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is a good read on this subject.

I don't plan on getting either, just curious.

In my humble opinion, I don't think the Serpa is a very good concealment holster. I have 2, and I use them mainly as a woods holster, and occasionally as an IPSC holster. As a matter of fact I ordered one w/o the Serpa lock to use in IPSC.

Jstall,

John Shaw gave me an early Serpa w/o the silly lock for a 1911. It does make a good IPSC holster. It positions the gun about right for that purpose, at least for me.

Maybe a bit brash, I should rephrase to avoid a SERPA with a 1911 or probably a Glock. That holster should be okay with an DA auto like a Sig or a Beretta. I'd still prefer the ALS though.

It is hard to communicate properly in the written word sometimes. In having the gun out before needing it, I meant before needing to shoot, hence not needing to have an "Oh [bleep]" moment, scrambling for a gun, already behind the curve. I was not referring to situational assessment.

The fastest draw, is having it already in your hands.

In regards to gloves, in cold weather I tend to wear very thin gloves, such as nomex flight gloves, or the "mechanix" brand. Thin enough to give me some tactile feel that I can manipulate things. If I know ahead of time I am going into something ugly, the gloves get shoved into a pocket.

Hope that helps. I am not a fan of the Serpa, but that fact of the matter is sometimes you simply have to dance with the one ya' brung. It is issued, so I deal with it. No use whining about it.

I have one w/o the lock for my 1911 and my XD45. They seem to do a good job in that application. If I'm on the river or in the woods, I use the one with the Serpa lock, as I shouldn't have to do any fast draws.

Good points. In SFAUC they forced us to shoot wearing nomex gloves, mainly 'cause of splinters and burns from being too close to a door charge. They would only allow trimming away the trigger finger pocket. Everybody hated it at first but no one had a problem three weeks later

Makay, In the photos of your 45's in the IWB holsters it appears that none of them have anything protecting the safety. Do you not worry about having the safety flip off from rubbing on your body?

I'm new to concealed carry as my state (WI) just legalized it last month but I've been carrying a S&W 1911 with a 3" barrel in a Galco Super Tuck holster and I'm always worried about the safety getting knocked off and it has a leather gaurd to keep it from rubbing on my body.

Reelman, if your safety is fitted properly it won't be an issue. If you ever reach down and find it off safe and you are certain that you didn't place it in the holster that way, don't carry it until someone who knows what they are doing has re-fitted it. It won't go off in your holster because it does have a grip safety.

A properly fitted 1911 safety will be quite firm and VERY positive when it disengages. Getting the recess in the safety and the bevel on the plunger just right is the key. It pays to know what you are doing. I don't but I know where the magic happens.

Only the oldest EX companion did not have have a piece of leather that covered the thumb safety on the body side. It is a 20 year old holster.

Note in the pic here:



In regards to worrying, I really do not worry too much about it. Here is why:

A properly fitted thumb safety should not be that easy to disengage. It should be a deliberate act.

That said, it does on occasion happen. However, in order for anything bad to happen the grip safety would have to be depressed AND the trigger pulled at the same time.

All of this would have to happen while the pistol is snugly fit into a tight,custom molded holster.,

Banging into door frames, chairs, furniture and such will sometimes bump a safety off, but eventually you learn discreet ways to check the safety in a tactile/non visual manner, while others present are none the wiser.

Your concern is valid. It is one of the reasons I do not like ambi safetys. Soon I will get around to sending my Baer back to the factory for a few mods, one being the ambi safety removed and a much smaller single sided safety installed. I actually like the old Colt style as shown on my Colt Officer's ACP:



I have never had a problem disengaging it and do not care at all for the boat paddle that Baer puts on the Premier II, even though the PII is a fine gun.

A thumb safety getting knocked off will happen, though not often. While it is not a good thing, it is not something to lose sleep over. Be discreet ( or just wait until you are in a more private setting), swipe it back on and carry on with your day.

Hopefully that may alleviate some of your concerns.