How does one get comfy with these? I have a M. Rosen ARG fit for my Kimber 3" and am trying to get used to it.. Is this only a good fit for skinny types? I know I gotta get another 2" waistband jeans to use with this thing... Or do ya hafta use it enough that yer waist develops an 'imprint' on it's own..

Curious here..

Never had a problem with mine and I carry a 5" 1911, but I don't wear skin tight clothes either

I love them. But I would not even attempt wearing them unless your pants are two sizes over. I'm a 34 but only buy 36 for just that reason.


Travis

I also wear mine just behind centerline.

Travis

Best pants for concealed carry that I've found are Cabela's chinos with the elastic in the sides of the waist---those and the "slider" waisted trousers are ideal---with jeans, you pretty much just have to size up.

If I'm not mistaken the ARG has a pretty good foward cant to it, so it probably needs to go a little farther behind centerline. I use a Crossbreed Supertuck and it is super comfortable.

+1

Further behind the hip? Hmmm..


And yeah, it has a good forward cant..

You have to work with the particular holster and gun combination until you find the right spot, and then you will have the "ah ha" moment.

Two words for you, "Milt Sparks".


All day every day. The grip sits in the fleshy (OK make that fatty) spot above the hip bone. I wear Wrangler regular or slim fit and most days I can forget its there. Remember, I don't do a desk job. Today it is cutting more rounds of firewood then splitting them, hauling the splits in a wheelbarrow and stacking on the wood pile.

Sitting, driving, reading the Fire, driving, or working as hard is a busted up old fart can work, it stays where I put it and rides comfortable all day long.

To get comfortable, I'd ditch the holster, turn the gun around and carry it butt to front, canted to the rear. The so called Calvary Style.
Conceals better, allows one to adjust it's possition, or turn it around, stays put, and is accessible to either hand. The only drawback is that it gets wet some. Simply wipe it down a time or two per day and carry on. E

Kinda hard to do better than a Rosen ARG, so you have the right gunleather. I�m no skinny guy �bout 6-2 � 225lbs. Just takes some getting used to. Be sure to get yourself an actual gun belt, that does help. The extra thickness and stiffness of the gun belt helps you to secure the holster without cinching up your britches so tight your belly button becomes a third nipple. From there, it�s just a matter of getting used to that mode of carry. The best way to get used to it is to carry around the house as you go about your day. After a while, it just becomes the new normal.

The IWB isn�t as comfortable as OWB, but it�s typically more secure, and concealment is worlds better.

No disrespect meant to Eremicus, but carrying a gun with no holster will eventually cause you misery. The gun should not move when you move, in other words it should be in the same place all the time. If you spend much time moving around without a holster, you may just find yourself moving around without a gun.

No, the gun, if properly carried doesn't move. A good belt sees to that. What I meant was it can be moved or shifted in position if the wearer wishes. You can change the cant of the gun, turn it around, or slide it back or forward. But, after adjusting it's position, the belt is tighten to lock it into place.
I've carried several guns like that off and on over the years. I've even run with it so carried. I can't run with a revolver so carried, but any flat sided auto works fine. E

Run it backerds and forwards on your belt to find the "sweet spot." I carry an ultra-compact single stack autoloader in the summer and a full size double stack in the winter, both IWB. If your holster's "ride height" is adjustable, run it up and down, too. I carry the full size further forward on the hip, and higher. The subcompact is almost in my SOB and lower to the beltline.

And for me, as others have already opined, that was when I tried a Crossbreed for a G19. I'm sure a compact 1911 would be even more comfortable. I help a friend at gunshows periodically and sometimes carry his Wilson Sentinel in an Andrews Leather IWB that is quite similar to the Sparks holster. VERY comfortable.

I would have agreed with that prior to the Crossbreed.

I hate any and all holsters with marked cant. You have to "chickenwing" (markedly extend your strong side elbow laterally) to draw from them. This is slower to draw and makes it more difficult to obtain a proper firing grip. Also, you are more likely to bump your elbow into something and really screw yourself under stress.

On the Crossbreed, the cant is adjustable. I prefer 5-10degrees and no more. I carry a Glock as far forward on my hip as I have too to be able to comfortably sit in a car, with the magazine base pressed against the seat bolster. A G17 causes the gun to be too far forward, the G19 is "just right".

All good info and I intend to closely read it all.. I should have mentioned that I ordered the belt to match the holster.. It's my second dedicated gun belt from Rosens and they're outstanding.. (and danged stiff) That alone will take some time to break in and form to me right.. I think I could tow my truck and camper with these things.. Hehehehee..

Funny thing is, I bought jeans with 2" extra waistbands just for CCW and now (unfortunately) I fit those rather well and will have to go for ANOTHER 2" Grrrrr...

If this ARG is far enough back, i.e., behind the hip, it doesn't seem to conceal as well as when it's forward.. Mebbe I should have had this configured for my Kahr P-380.. I've got another Rosen saddle for OTB use and that's just plain comfy ..

Brand new rig belts can definitely cause some discomfort with an IWB.


Travis

I've gotten away from really heavy belts, I don't need them with the Crossbreed. I use an all velcro 1.5in Safariland. I typically wear 5.11's and the elastic waist has plenty of expansion for a Glock. A 1911 is thinner. Small Regular BDU's still fit but they are really too tight for me with the Crossbreed. The design of the 5.11 pants is dialed in, IMO.

My point is the carry gun, holster, clothing is a system. You've gotta get it all worked out for YOU, based on your needs, body type/shape, and situation.

Likely needs a little break in time. Most of my iwb's run best at about the 4 o'clock position

I find the Mitch Rosen IWB holster for my 1911 is as comfortable as any holster that I have ever used inside or out

Never had one of those. I find the Milt Sparks very comfortable, even with an all steel Government Model for all day carry. The chopped 1911s tend actually not to be as comfortable in IWB holsters as do the full sized 1911s.

I'm not real picky to be honest. I wear a simple Infidel from CompTac at the 4 o'clock and have always been comfy.



Travis

I carry a Browning HP IWB. Against the advise of good folks here ( I was in a rush) I did not buy a Milt Sparks. I found a Leather holster by a NC manufacturer ( I think ) named Gould.

I carry daily this way and as Scott F says I forget it is there most of the time, including driving about 700 miles a week.

It took about a month to get used to it.

Wearing the right belt and pants was an important tip too. Thick Belt about 1 3/4 to 2".

As far as pants go I have found that as long as they fit right you dont really need more than about 1/2" extra for the holster.

The problem with holsters is that they're much like shoes, what fits one individual may not fit another. When someone says that there is one solution to the worlds greatest fitting holster, it often simply means that they have little experience with holsters from various makers. People will often relay how great their latest purchase is without qualifying what their experience is with other makers products, if they have any. A lot of folks simply do not see the point to spending 100 - 200 dollars on a holster, let alone spending that on several holsters for the same gun. Couple that with the reluctance to purchase a good quality gunbelt, often simply due to cost, and the whole picture can change. One must take holster reviews with a grain of salt and take the time to find what works specifically for them. This can involve both time and sometimes additional money as each makers products will have their own nuances. The "this is absolutely, unquestionably the best" type reviews from folks who have little time carrying a firearm or little experience with the products on the market are often the type of review that leads others down the wrong path for their individual characteristics and preferences.

I would have agreed with that a couple of years ago. Try a Crossbreed, you'll see.

IOW, about 8:00 for me (I'm LH)

Truer words never spoken - and I've understood that from the get-go.

A good break-in period is obviously necessary.. I've just gotta break in the belt and holster and carry this thing for as much as possible.. It'll either get better or I'll have to ditch it until scabs heal..

During that time I'll just use a 'clipper' and carry the P-9 or P-380..

I really appreciate all the feedback.. Don't be hesitant to offer more..

Best wishes.

Crossbreed looks good, but likely because they're unauthorized copies of Milt Sparks holsters.

PS I've been carrying concealed since 1980, having purchased trunk loads full of gun leather between then and discovering Milt Sparks.

Is Milt Sparks your second personality or something? You tout his holsters like a Christian talks about Christ.


Travis

I hate to see people struggle through all the rest until they finally discover the best. Seriously.

Hawkeye most everybodys holster is a copy of somebody else's holster. I mean get real, besides kydex and the Serpa there haven't been any revolutionary changes in holsters.

Huh???? You lost me on that one TRH. I love Sparks (currently have 12 holsters and or belts of Milt/Tony's---but there's nothing in their product line that even remotely resembles a crossbreed---not only different design and material, but different technology.

The Tom Threepersons, the Roy Baker pancake, the Askins Avenger, and the Bruce Nelson summer special have been copied in one form or another by just about every holster maker including Milt Sparks.

Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds? I know Milt makes good stuff. I just bought one for my brother actually.

Nobody else is making "unauthorized" copies of holsters. Where do you get that idea? Hound va nailed it with his shoe analogy. I love IWB, and I know which holsters I prefer, but I also know they don't work for everybody.





Travis

Which one? The super or mini?


Travis

The super is the only one I have experience with. I plan to try a mini with a Khar.

I run the Supertuck with my XD 45 Compact. My buddy just bought a mini for his Ruger LC-9, but I haven't checked it out yet. I've have always said, if you could find a holster thin enough, it would feel like you just had the gun tucked in your waistband. The Crossbreed is as close as you'll get to that.

Crossbreed Super Tuck nothing beats it for comfort.

Thanks for the replies. Which clips are you guys using?


Travis

I use the ones that come standard with the holster.

+1---they are hard to fit however over Galco's Reinforced Instructor belt: http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterP3.asp?ProductID=4198&CatalogID=254
...it's a great belt but too thick to fit a number of holsters slots/clips.

In cooler weather you might want to try a belly band type holster. I got one given to me. I tried it and was amazed at how comfortable it was and it is about a versatile and any one holster could get.

I thought of it a a kind of joke until I tried it. I decided to keep it in spite of my love for my Milt Sparks.



Yes Travis, I am a Christian and like Milt Sparks.

I wear a DeSantis IWB nylon ( Tuck This II)
and carry anything from my G20 to a S W M & P 9C or Walther PK380

I wear it at 4 o'clock
grip rear.

Comfortable?
Not really but I am used to it.
A carry gun isn't supposed to be comfortable, but comforting.

I'd like a bit of both..

If I have one that is more than just a tad 'uncomfortable', then it's obviously not a holster that will work with my body profile.. I've got a reversible nylon clip holster for the P-9 that's hardly noticeable - feels like I'm carrying a cell phone.

I'm determined to keep tryin' this thing for as many days as I can to get it broken-in and shaped for me.. Like another said above- it's like breaking in a new pair of shoes (which I just got too) and the similarity is on the mark..

I tried a Milt Sparks for my USP, it was fine. Not really worth the money to me, so I sold it. I don't carry the USP right now anyway.

I now carry a Kahr PM9 and use a DM Bullard SOB or a Dale Fricke AIWB. Both work. I tend to forget about the leather SOB before I forget about the Kydex AIWB.. but I like the appendix position more.

YMMV, but I wouldn't pay over $100 for another holster. Not with Super Tuck, King Tuck and Minotaur out there...

Have they changed their design recently? I just looked at their website and they're not what I remembered.

Me too. My El Paso Summer Carry fits the belt loop just ahead of my rear pocket. I have a fat belly with a bit of an overhang. I spend a lot of time pulling my pants up with my 5" 1911. It is comfortable as long as it is not riding on my hip bone.

Calvary is where Jesus died.
Cavalry is the Army.

I have and I did not find it as or more comfortable than the offerings from other makers. If I were budget constrained it wouldn't be a terrible choice, but at this point that isn't a primary decision making point. What makers were you making a direct comparison to?

I used a buddy's Sparks years ago with a Commander, it didn't work for me. I've used Andrews Leather's IWB with a LW Commander and it is as comfy as the Crossbreed, haven't tried one for a G19 but I plan to buy one. Forget anything Kydex for IWB carry, I've tried a bunch, they all will literally wear a hole in your a$$.

+1
I tried Garrett's Silent Thunder because leather lined kydex seemed like a great idea--and probably is--just not a good iwb holster IMO---it hurt. http://store.lemilitarygear.com/mer...re_Code=GGEAR&Category_Code=10000001


...if anyone here at the fire wants to try it--I'll send it to you to wear for a couple of weeks---if you decide you want it--pay me whatever you want--but I'm not doing you a favor IMO It's for a 5" 1911.

I definitely wouldn't want to think about Kydex for IWB carry. All of the Kydex stuff I have is OWB. If I want thin for IWB carry, I'll stick with stuff from Alex Nossar. His horse hide at approximately 0.065 is thinner than most Kydex anyway. If I want relatively thin for IWB, I'll stay with Brommeland.

If you are referring to Crossbreed, they haven't changed anything that I can see.

Huh. I must have been thinking of a different holster completely, then, because they don't look much like any Milt Sparks designs.

This is another blanket statement I don't get. I use a Kydex all the time and I love it. Loaned it to a friend that carries all day, every day and I damn near had to shoot him to get it back. He loved it too.


Travis

The last couple from Rosen's is from their 'Express' selections - and run anywhere from $65-95..

I know there are cheaper holsters out there, and I have a couple.. But 'cheap' isn't always better.. Although a $20 nylon clip unit for my P-9 is one I use most often - and it works just fine.. I dunno.. Maybe I'm just a leather snob..

Redneck, isn't it great that we can carry now? I got my permit a couple weeks ago and after carrying my P7 in a cheaper leather single clip IWB holster I bought a S&W 3" 1911 and got a Galco holster for it. I'm not sure of the model number of the holster but it's the double clip that looks like a CrossBreed. I LOVE THIS HOLSTER! Very comfortable and if conforms to my body real nice, and I'm a BIG guy.

One thing I've found in my very limited CCW experiance is that the double clips secure the holster much better and keep it from shifting. The single clips are easier to take on and off but the gun shifts quite a bit.

Lee,

Yeah, add 2" to your pants, loose 2" off your waist or use something like the Milt Sparks BN55 OWB like I do.

Alan

It IS!! If the clip's moving/shifting, you should examine the size of the opening and ensure your belt fills it.. These belts from Rosen are 1.5" wide and trust me - nothin' moves on these things..

I've been wearing the new belt over the last few days - working to get it conformed better and it sure seems to be gettin' bigger.

Oh, and I already have been getting pants that are 2" wider than I am; in anticipation of the new law..

Now, if I could just lose about 15# OVER the dang belt...........

+1

I think it's a "King Tuk" or Tuck or something like that. I've been looking at those..

Straight up the best deal going for a truly world class IWB holster. With the cost and wait time for the Sparks VM II, I�d rather have the ARG Express Line holster for around $30.00 less, and no waiting for 6 months. I have the Sparks VM II and a custom built holster that�s very similar; but I don�t have an ARG Express line holster; wish I did.

If it isn't comfortable you will leave it at home more often than you will carry it. You have to have both if you carry 24-7.

The tuckable clips I have used do not go on the bely but stay on the pants under the belt for better concealment. With the VM II and the optional clips my carry is completely invisible if my shirt is bloused just a little bit.

I gave up the 24/7 carry.. The wife got nervous with a naked husband clad in belt and holstered firearm in bed.. It kept snagging on the sheets..

I subscribe to VA's method.

Pants on, gun on. Pants off, gun in reach.

Ditto..

Nice feeling isn't it. I am glad you guys get to know just how good it feels.

Makes sure to use a sturdy belt to hold the weight of the firearm. Their are specialty belts out there that are rigid enough to allow a proper draw and to "hold" the firearm while carrying. Usually most like between 330-4 o clock position.

Yep - no question..

Here's where I've ordered the last two:

http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/product_line.html

That's why I had my beddy-bye carry dehorned.

This is my pistol..THIS is my GUN!

I just came back from elk hunting and saw this thread.

I will throw out a few thoughts/points in no particular order and aimed at no particular person, though I often tend to ruffle a few feathers...

These are MY observations and experiences in carrying handguns in climates and conditions that have run from one end of the scale to the other.

As the saying goes " the mission dictates the gear".

When it comes to IWB I carry just behind the hip bone, with a sturdy belt. Holsters are Sparks. Example:



Pictured is a G19 with an IWB rig, though normally I run an OWB Sparks 55BN:



1911s,

I pretty much always run a EX Companion. I find the 5" gun and IWB work very well together. In fact the longer barrels work better for me than the shorter ones.

The steep cant of the ARG that the OP was talking about would not work at all for me. The cant that Sparks uses does. To each their own. We all have to find our own way:



Sticking a handgun in my pants without a holster as a regular form of carry is not something you will catch me doing. I still roll with bad guys often enough that losing control of a gun is a no-go.

Even if I was not in a career field where I actively look for trouble, I would not do so. You only have to get into one scrape and lose control of your gun once.

Anyone can get knocked on their ass. Anyone can slip on ice. Anyone can.....you get the picture.

In regards to copying holster designs. I agree that Sparks has been blatantly ripped off. At least Milt went and asked permission to copy a design, hence the name of the 55 BN (Bruce Nelson).

Someone mentioned the Serpa as being revolutionay. It is not. Mike Lowe, retired Boise Police, designed the holster, with one exception. His had a sort of shoe that you slid your trigger finger in to activate the "serpa" button.

I had a T&E sample years ago that was a police duty holster.

Blackhawk simply removed the cover and marketed it as the serpa. I have no idea if Lowe ever got a penny.

Someone spoke of taking a review with a grain of salt in regards to how great a holster is. I think that is sage advise.

18 hours a day for years versus casual ccw to meet the boys for coffee and show them what you are carrying (show and tell)are two different animals.


Sturdy belts are pretty much required no matter what you choose. I would not skimp on that one. Spend the money and buy a good one. 20 years later it will still be in servicable condition, just like a quality holster.

example, a 20 year old EX for a Colt Officer's ACP:





Cheers!

Go for it..

Absolutely..

That's what I'm workin' on.. I hear that a lot - but hard to believe; ONLY because I don't have anything longer than 3" (for a carry item) so I have no hands-on experience in that - it's just the mental pic that seems to run contrary to comfort..

Is it because the ARG is meant for short-barreled handguns and you may have more items with longer barrels? The ones you picture seem to favor guns with longer barrels.. Yep..



Anyone who's smart does not participate in S&T..


Unless I add another batch of pounds, these will last a lot longer than I will.. I can pass 'em down to my son - and maybe HIS son some day..





Thank you so much for the very informed and honest reply.. Best wishes sir..

How has Milt Sparks been blantantly ripped off? You can change the cant, raise or lower the gun position, add some leather here and there, but it's still an IWB holster, nothing new. As far as the Serpa, I was referring to the carbon fiber construction more than the Serpa lock. All I'm saying is that all holster makers have copied somebody's design in one form or another. I mean you have IWB and OWB (the way most people carry) Different cant, different way to hook it to your belt, add a leather tab to protect your hide, to me does not equate to a brand new design, just a new spin to an older design. This is no big deal to me as I own quite a few holsters by different makers, naturally some are better than others.

I found your comments well worth reading as always Mackay.
Before reading them, I had already decided to buy a Milt Sparks IWB holster, belt and magazine pouch if I go CCW.
It's been a very long time since I carried CCW. Back then, we didn't have the quality, tight fitting holsters that are availiable today. IWB holsters, for instance, were just simple folded over leather things with a belt clip. All they did was keep one's clothing from interfering with the draw and keep body moisture away from the gun. The gun was easier to draw, but also alot easier to loose.
I quite agree that loosing one's gun is something that must avoided at all costs. Even more important than keeping the gun out of sight. If anything can do this right, I suspect a quality holster made right and based on years of experience is the way to go. I don't know about you, but I've spent a small fortune on holsters and belts. Some of which didn't work nearly as well as they needed to work.
I've had very good experiences carrying concealed inside the waistband w/o a holster. But there are some big exceptions. I've never seen or had any revolver workout well that way. The flat, 4-5 inch barreled larger autos are about the only guns that did. Again, a quality belt is a must.
One's method of carry is another point. Far and away the best I've used is what's known as the Calvary Carry. The gun rides over the strong side hip, butt to front, but canted to the rear. With a good, snug belt, she stays put. So well, in fact, that it's noticably slower to draw. The user must also be careful to point the gun away from his body when he draws it with his reversed hand.
Anyway, thanks for the comments. Much appreciated. E

...so named because it's only marginally less painful than crucifixion???

The Blackhawk Serpa is an absolute abortion. The Safariland ALS is so far ahead of it in the ergonomic dept it ain't funny, not to mention the not shooting yourself in the leg dept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

+1...the problem with hitting/pushing small retention buttons is that that movement is somewhere between a complex and a fine motor skill, which will be difficult to perform with a heart beat rate above 145 and almost impossible to accomplish under duress with a heart beat rate above 175. A good read for anyone interested in shooting beyond a casual, shallow depth is Bruce Siddle's, Sharpening the Warriors Edge and Dave Grossman's On Combat. They can be mastered by intense training, but being able to do it in practice with a heart beat rate elevated by exercise is different than being able to do it in a confrontation with an heart beat rate elevated by fear and/or an adrenaline dump.

If you're talking about that idiot that shot himself in the leg with the 1911, that was 100% his fault (and he admits it). He clearly pulled the trigger as the gun was coming out of the holster.

Jstall,

With respect, here is an example of how I view the Milt Sparks crew as being ripped off.

The Summer Special, first brought to thousands of cops and CCW holders by Sparks.

Now we have the....

El Paso Saddlery. Summer Cruiser

Galco. Summer Comfort

Aker. DEA IWB

Desantis. Cozy Partner

Wilson Combat. Summer Comfort ( I will note that I highly doubt that this was a "rip off" as owners of both companies are friends)

Bulldog custom Gunleather. Summer Special.

Bulldog did not even change the name. In fact if you do a google search, you will see side by side pics with theirs and Sparks holsters. Very blatant.

Leather Arsenal, Surprise Special.

In fact Elmer McEvoy (Leather Arsenal)used to work for Sparks and only moved 20 minutes down the road. I know very little of the gentleman. I have seen a couple of his products and they were pretty good rigs.

All of these designs pass the scratch and sniff test to me as copying the Sparks crew. When Sparks was not the designer, he went to the designer and asked permission and gave credit where credit was due. That has not been the case since.

Tony and the crew are class acts however and simply continue to make fine holsters and gear.

This was not meant to start an arguement, I am just pointing out my observations.

With respect.

MS.

I thought Bruce Nelson introduced the "Summer Special", but in any event that was my whole point. How can you say no one else can make any holster that resembles a Summer Special. ALL holster makers have done their interpretation of someone else's holster design. Take for example the Tom Threepersons design of 1923, it is the most copied holster design of all time or close to it.

This is off of Milt Sparks webite: Bruce Nelson's Professional is one of the most copied holster designs of all time, second only to his "Summer Special".
I'm not trying to start an argument here, just saying that everybody has copied everybody's design in one form or another

I would like to comment on this, as I agree and disagree ...

First, I am issued a Serpa duty rig and it is easy enough under stress to get your firearm out. I would disagree about the fine motor skills part.

Due to prior training with other holsters and the nature of my draw, I do not curl my finger, hitting the button with just the tip of my finger. I keep my finger straight and slap the whole button with my whole finger, that way when I draw my gun, my finger is still straight and naturaly aligns alongside the frame of the firearm.

The one great thing about the holster is the fast retention. This is very critical. Many here may not think about it, but a fast and secure reholster is far more important to many who carry a gun in a professional capacity, than a fast draw.

In my career I have very, very rarely needed a quick draw, as I more often than not was getting paid to look for trouble in the first place, found it and was addressing it. In these encounters, situational awareness told my pea brain to draw my gun BEFORE I really needed it in a bad way.

Back to the reholster. Quite often, when a gun is out, a situation is dynamic and a situation has changed to where you need to go hands on with someone (fighting, handcuffing, whatever), or manipulate doors, children, vehicles, spouses, whatever, and you need a very fast and secure way to retain your handgun that will be difficult for an unauthorized person to gain access to it. The SERPA with a retention hood is great for that.

FYI The concealed carry version (non paddle)has a track record of breaking away from belts. I am a weapon retention instructor. At a class, going slow, trying to learn proper technique, rather than brute strength, which would come later during practical exercises, we were breaking them right off the belts.

I broke one off the belt of the person I was teamed up with. I was not physically trying to take the gun. I simply put a firm grasp on his gun while in the holster and had him begin to slowly go through the proper moves at slow speed, learning the form and technique.

I ended up handing him his gun back, still in the holster.

There are numerous examples of dirt and debris getting into the safety latch and prevent users from drawing their pistol. There are a few videos on the net floating around. I am sure a 5 minute youtube search would reveal all one would care to watch.

Given the choice, I would stay away.

I might have missed it, but I don't think anyone said that. Calling the dozens of 'Summer Special' style holsters a "rip off" is accurate - same with all the Threepersons copies.

Heck, most modern gun 'designs' are nothing more than rip offs of someone else's work. Even certain elements of the Hi-Power are a rip off of the 1911 - FN waited for Colt patents to expire. In effect, John Browning ripped off John Browning.

OK, well it looks to me like everybody is ripping off everybody, so there shouldn't be a problem.

If you're wrong in your assessment you just reholster. I get arrested for brandishing.

What's the scoop on managing the Serpa release with gloves on?

Ahhh, stay the [bleep] away from the thing and get a Safariland ALS

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing to Mackay---that
a) using your finger to depress the button/lever is by definition a "fine motor skill" or
b)disagreeing that fine motor skills diminish with elevated heart beat????

Regarding option a---it's just a clinical definition (unlike the "Scout Rifle" discussion of a week ago)---the use of the muscles in the fingers falls under the catagory of "fine" vs. "gross" motor skills.

Regarding option b---the heart beat rate at which the loss of fine motor skills occurrs will vary from person to person, but it's universal that it will take place at some level of heart beat rate.

As mentioned, this can be addressed with training, and I'm guessing that based on your background and intrinsic interest, you're able to manipulate the button under stress, but I doubt that you're "normal" or at least "typical" of what the average concealed carry citizen will experience.

JMO, YMMV.

On Combat by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is a good read on this subject.

I don't plan on getting either, just curious.

In my humble opinion, I don't think the Serpa is a very good concealment holster. I have 2, and I use them mainly as a woods holster, and occasionally as an IPSC holster. As a matter of fact I ordered one w/o the Serpa lock to use in IPSC.

Jstall,

John Shaw gave me an early Serpa w/o the silly lock for a 1911. It does make a good IPSC holster. It positions the gun about right for that purpose, at least for me.

Maybe a bit brash, I should rephrase to avoid a SERPA with a 1911 or probably a Glock. That holster should be okay with an DA auto like a Sig or a Beretta. I'd still prefer the ALS though.

It is hard to communicate properly in the written word sometimes. In having the gun out before needing it, I meant before needing to shoot, hence not needing to have an "Oh [bleep]" moment, scrambling for a gun, already behind the curve. I was not referring to situational assessment.

The fastest draw, is having it already in your hands.

In regards to gloves, in cold weather I tend to wear very thin gloves, such as nomex flight gloves, or the "mechanix" brand. Thin enough to give me some tactile feel that I can manipulate things. If I know ahead of time I am going into something ugly, the gloves get shoved into a pocket.

Hope that helps. I am not a fan of the Serpa, but that fact of the matter is sometimes you simply have to dance with the one ya' brung. It is issued, so I deal with it. No use whining about it.

I have one w/o the lock for my 1911 and my XD45. They seem to do a good job in that application. If I'm on the river or in the woods, I use the one with the Serpa lock, as I shouldn't have to do any fast draws.

Good points. In SFAUC they forced us to shoot wearing nomex gloves, mainly 'cause of splinters and burns from being too close to a door charge. They would only allow trimming away the trigger finger pocket. Everybody hated it at first but no one had a problem three weeks later

Makay, In the photos of your 45's in the IWB holsters it appears that none of them have anything protecting the safety. Do you not worry about having the safety flip off from rubbing on your body?

I'm new to concealed carry as my state (WI) just legalized it last month but I've been carrying a S&W 1911 with a 3" barrel in a Galco Super Tuck holster and I'm always worried about the safety getting knocked off and it has a leather gaurd to keep it from rubbing on my body.

Reelman, if your safety is fitted properly it won't be an issue. If you ever reach down and find it off safe and you are certain that you didn't place it in the holster that way, don't carry it until someone who knows what they are doing has re-fitted it. It won't go off in your holster because it does have a grip safety.

A properly fitted 1911 safety will be quite firm and VERY positive when it disengages. Getting the recess in the safety and the bevel on the plunger just right is the key. It pays to know what you are doing. I don't but I know where the magic happens.

Only the oldest EX companion did not have have a piece of leather that covered the thumb safety on the body side. It is a 20 year old holster.

Note in the pic here:



In regards to worrying, I really do not worry too much about it. Here is why:

A properly fitted thumb safety should not be that easy to disengage. It should be a deliberate act.

That said, it does on occasion happen. However, in order for anything bad to happen the grip safety would have to be depressed AND the trigger pulled at the same time.

All of this would have to happen while the pistol is snugly fit into a tight,custom molded holster.,

Banging into door frames, chairs, furniture and such will sometimes bump a safety off, but eventually you learn discreet ways to check the safety in a tactile/non visual manner, while others present are none the wiser.

Your concern is valid. It is one of the reasons I do not like ambi safetys. Soon I will get around to sending my Baer back to the factory for a few mods, one being the ambi safety removed and a much smaller single sided safety installed. I actually like the old Colt style as shown on my Colt Officer's ACP:



I have never had a problem disengaging it and do not care at all for the boat paddle that Baer puts on the Premier II, even though the PII is a fine gun.

A thumb safety getting knocked off will happen, though not often. While it is not a good thing, it is not something to lose sleep over. Be discreet ( or just wait until you are in a more private setting), swipe it back on and carry on with your day.

Hopefully that may alleviate some of your concerns.

Mackay and take a knee, thanks for the advice. I completely forgot about the grip safety also being there. My new S&W has an extended safety and I've already sent an Email out to S&W about getting the safety "tightened up" some and I told them I would prefer to get rid of the extended safety and go with a standard safety. I'm guessing they will not do anything for me and I will have to go to a good 1911 gunsmith to get the work done. I was deciding between the S&W and the Kimber and went with the S&W because the Kimber had an ambi safety and I didn't like the idea of it sticking out there to catch on everything.

Personally, I like the ambi safety.. I'm LH anyway and it's always possible one might have to shoot 'wrong-handed' for whatever reason.. I try to practice both ways, just in case..

If I was left handed I would be liking the ambi safety a whole lot more I bet! I have played with using my trigger finger on my left hand to disengage the safety and while not as quick as using my thumb in a pinch it would work.

Thanks for the info on the serpa, would you recommend removing / disabling the lock mech all together?

They make an identical holster without the Serpa lock for about $30. I would go that route and have.

The only reason I ask is Ialready have the serpa, I use it ocassionally and have always wondered if the lock might hangup.

Only if you use it. Also, do try to draw support hand only but do NOT try it loaded at first.

I have a couple of Serpa holster, with the lock, but cannot recommend them in good faith.
It's too easy for a particle of dirt or gravel to get in to the lock and render the holster inoperable. That may mean not being able to draw your handgun when you need it most.

I am forced to use one as a duty holster for uniform work. For plainclothes or on my own time, I would simply choose another holster. Just watch a few minutes of various videos of guys unable to get their sidearms out of their serpa holsters and it might leave an impression.

People do not think about it, but a lot of fights go to the ground. If you are rolling with someone, there is a good chance for debris to find its way into your rig.

Just something to consider.

Quite so. E