Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A-frames as opposed to Partitions

About 3 years ago a buddy of mine decided to use the 180 gr. .30-06 XP3 during our elk hunt and was not pleased with the performance. He lung shot a large cow at about 150 yards and his second shot hit her in the upper left hind leg (ham) as she was moving away. The first shot hit no bone and was not recovered. I honestly don't remember if it passed through or we just didn't find it.

The leg shot bullet was recovered without penetrating the bone. It entered the ham and broke the bone but stopped there. The rear of the bullet looked like an expanded/bulged A-frame, and the front expanded also. The lack of any penetration surprised us since the bullet didn't hit the joint or pelvis. Go figure...

Ken

Interesting... but I'd have trouble judging a bullet based solely on that ham shot. Everything I'd shot with it thus far was a heart/lung shot. I have yet to recover one (all pass throughs), but everything pretty much went bang flop.

Here's one, factory Federal 338WM, 210grn, the elk took a step and turned as I pulled the trigger, it hit him in the right rump and was found just under the left front shoulder skin, it now weighs 147grns, distance was a paced 96 yrds.


I asked one of the Nosler reps at the Redmond Sportsman's show about the separation of the front core, he said that "they're designed to do that", that's all I know, don't have any experience with the A-Frames.

A quick phone call to Nosler, and they will tell you the same thing!

Ted

What would anyone expect them to say?

Taz I have some here recovered from elk....mostly 30 caliber.

Die hard Nosler enthusiast here, although of course I've used other bullets too. Started using the Partition back in the 1970's, and still use the Partition (as well as the Ballistic Tip, Accubond and the defunct Solid Base) today. Here's a few photos of bullets I've collected.

Here's a shot of a pair of 350 gr bullets from a .45/70 at 20 yards, fired into one-gallon plastic water jugs. On the left is a Swift A-Frame, perhaps the most picture perfect mushroom I've ever seen. On the right is a 350 gr flat nose Hornady. Muzzle velocity was 2040 fps for the Swift and 2080 fps for the Hornady:



A Barnes TSX subjected to the same test, but only 100 grains at 3340 fps from a .25-06 rifle:


A .25 cal, 115 gr Berger VLD, before and after impact with a mule deer:


260 gr .375" Nosler Accubond, into the water jugs at 20 yards:


.30 cal 165 gr Nosler Partition into the jugs:




.25 cal, 115 gr Nosler Partition into the jugs:
[img]http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/GuyMiner/Loading/IMG_4787.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k129/GuyMiner/Loading/IMG_4786.jpg[/img]

People have criticized me because most of my recovered bullets come from water jugs not game. Mostly I shoot Nosler Partitions at game, and have yet to recover one from game - they always penetrate right on through. I kind of like that...

Regards, Guy

I have a .35 cal 225-gn recovered from a dink buck.

I like Partitions. I used them in my 7-08 on blacktails. They shot holes through them.

Accubonds leave a little messier wound channel, for better or worse, in my experience. Which is limited- let me get that out there up front.

I've never driven light NP's fast; how do they like speed? Bloodshot a lot of meat due to the soft front half?

The 210 NP in .338 is one of life's simple pleasures I've not yet experienced. Gotta rectify that.

Count me in the group of ingrates that would like a tipped Partition.

Jeff it depends on what is "fast" but I have used the 140 7mm in the 7/08, 7x57,280,and 7 Rem mag, started at 2650 or so to 3300 fps;of course there is always damage, which is what kills but I recall only one large buck I shot through the ribs with the 7 mag load at about 70 yards...just ribs, lungs, and out...the off side looked like a bomb went off, not shredded but just a large area of blood shot trauma.Yes they will handle speed.

That's the only time I ever noticed a lot of blood shot,and BTW I have never recovered a 140 7mm, regardless of shot angle or impact velocity.....just the way it has worked out.

I don't get it as far as the tip is concerned....it will screw up a perfectly good design and add nothing to the performance of the bullet.

But it's a TIP. That's one more, idn't it?







(bonus points for movie reference)

This is Spinal Tap, aye?

Might I ask the obvious here: what is the difference between erode and fragment during penetration?

My post is not to differentiate between erode and fragment....it's the difference between erode/fragment and total core separation/shedding...

Here's an excellent photo of an eroded core from a previous post



Here is a good photo of a jacket that has totally shed it's core

I think you may be having a little trouble here seeing the forest through the trees.

Do you really think any animal will be able to tell you the difference between a shedding core versus an eroding core when hit with a Partition?

Do you really think any animal will be able to tell you the difference of being hit with a Nosler Partition versus a Swift A-Frame?

If you come up with any answer other than "NO," you are putting WAAAYYYY too much thought into this.

Well, you might split hairs and say that eroding is small, incremental losses, while fragment is coming off in somewhat larger pieces - but ultimately, what the heck is the difference? Partitions work great, everyone seems to agree. SAF are good as well, they tend to not penetrate quite as far and I would agree with that although I have more experience with TBBC than the SAF, they both seem to expand a bit more and penetrate slightly less, but I have only recovered one TBBC from game, even game the size of moose.

Shedding? Eroding? Repeat after me; S...E...M...A...N...T...I...C...S.

I find this thread very interesting without being being terribly informative. Admittedly, a few people with industry contacts shed some light on the issue, and a few more with extensive experience with one or both bullets pretty much confirmed the conventional wisdom. FWIW, I am an avid Nosler fan, using BTs, SBs, PTs and ABs in a variety of rifles and cartridges.

That said, I use 180 Scirocco IIs in my semi-custom Vanguard in .300 Wby and 225 A-Frames in my custom .338 Win Mag because they group better in those rifles than anything else that I have tried. I have never recovered a Scirocco and only one A-Frame from an elk, and have had nothing but one-shot kills with either. I try a few of the Barnes offerings every now and then, but have yet to use any on game because other bullets shoot better in my rifles.

I have seen just enough failures with conventional cup and core bullets at higher impact velocities that I just pony up the extra for the so-called "premium" bullets for use on game larger than whitetails or mule deer.

Well, back when I could not get Nosler Partitions, there was a shortage back in 1997. I bought some 140 gr Swift A Fames, loaded them for a 7 x 57 and went to Alaska. They shot well enough, and It took just one to fill a moose tag. Could not find the bullet so I don't know what shape it was in, I do know that the tenderloin was very good that night. I still have a bunch of them left from that purchase. I thought it was going to be my new bullet of choice, then the Noslers became available again and well why fix what is not broke?

Wow..good info on both sides, but I've kilt a lot with a Partition and hope to continue...

vd - could you do me a favor and weigh all those bullets you showed? I'd bet they all lost the same % of weight. I'd also bet when nuances aremeasured the "fragmented" bullets have more retained weight than the eroded bullet..........