Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Can We Change The Way We Buy Guns?

Is there some way we can change the way we buy guns from distant dealers?
When I want to buy a gun from a distant dealer, I, the buyer, must go through a number of steps to get the gun in my hands. First, I must locate a Dealer in my area who will handle the deal with respect to the NICS check. After locating someone willing to do the "agent" job, I then send the money to the distant dealer to pay for the gun. If a pistol is involve, I must get a state permit to send along with the money. I must also get a copy of the local dealer's FFL to send to the dealership before he will send the gun. Regarding this last requirement, I have no idea how that got started because it's unnecessary, legally. This all something I must do to get the gun shipped.
When the distant dealer has my money, and the other paperwork, he sends the gun to my local FFL holder. When the local guy gets the gun, he calls me and I drive 50 to 100 miles to handle the NICS check and take possession of the gun. To do this service for me, for which he lets me know full well he is doing me a favor, I pay him between $20 and $50 depending on who will agree to do the "agent" work to start with.
You know, this is insanity of the highest order. Why is it that the distant dealer can't do the NICS check for us buyers? There is absolutely nothing illegal in this concept. The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) has been doing this for years with their rifle sales. I've bought a half dozen rifles from them and every rifle was delivered to my door.
The core issue is the NICS check. What is wrong with the selling dealer doing that check for us, rather than some local FFL?
When I buy a rifle from the CMP, I fill out a CMP Form, not the standard NICS form FFL dealers use. So, there is nothing sacrosanct about the yellow form, any form will do, as long as it has the right words on it. I take that form to a Notary and have my signature authenticated. Then, I send that form to the CMP, and they do the NICS check. After NICS approval, my rifle is sent to me at my house directly, not to an intermediary dealer who siphon's off some of my hard earned money. Now, if it's legal for the CMP to do this, why can't FFL dealers use the same modus operandi? It is a CASH COW for FFL dealers, and I would like to put an end to it.
Actually, I'd like to put an end to the whole NICS BS, but that comes next on my agenda. I can't bite the whole elephant at once.
So, I'd like to begin by stopping the nonsense of having to put money in the hands of a local FFL who does nothing more than watch you fill out a form, and then call NICS; for which you deposit money in his pocket for the service; nothing else to show for your hard earned money than having the NICS check done locally, as opposed to having the FFL dealer who sells you the gun do it as part of the sale. That would be no different from buying a gun locally where the store does the NICS in your presence. In the case of the distant dealer selling you, or me, a gun, we, the buyers would get a notarized copy of the yellow NICS form and send it to the selling dealer. If he wants to sell guns, let him do the NICS thing. He'd have to do it if someone came in his place to buy the gun. Then the guy you buy the gun from can do all of the paper work and save us customers the hassle And, we can have guns sent to our homes, like in the good old days, when honest citizens were treated like honest folks.
I feel I'm sound legally on this. The issue is how do we, the consumers, stop this nonsense?
Your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Don

Simple. Get more anti-gun Democrats (that is, basically all Democrats) out of office.

This problem has nothing to do with Democrats in office.
Don

Sure we could. But the point of the present exercise is to make buying a gun as cumbersome and expensive as humanly possible.

Bill Clinton made the ridiculous claim that the present system had "kept 250,000 guns out of the hands of criminals". Sure it did, Bill. Sure it did.

As a party, the Democrats have long since abandoned gun control as a main party agenda. No less character than James Carville announced that "it is not a vote getter issue". Still, individuals continue with the program, but the tide has turned and with the loss of official Democratic sponsorship of the issue. Strategically, it was a terrible blunder. Until a whole bunch of us die off, they will pay every time many of us go to the ballot box. The anti-Democrat feeling will linger among gun owners for decades.

The other issue, of course, is BATF. Before they were given responsibility for enforcing firearms laws, they had nothing to do about 3/4 of the time since moonshining had gone out of fashion. With no enforcement to do, they were in danger of losing funding, which is a terrible thing in Washington. So they got firearms enforcement, which gave them something to do. Hence the often overly eager and abusive enforcement--you have to have arrests to justify your budget.

Getting guns away from Joe Lunchbox is part of the party platform.

I understand your comment.
But, my thrust here is to allow for guns to be shipped directly to our home, which is perfectly legal to do. The CMP does it as a matter of daily business.
I guess I got the biggest oar in the water on this as I buy lots of unique rifles that are in the hands of some distant dealer, not close to home. And, the local dealers are getting snotty with handling transactions and making it more difficult for me to deal with them, as well as them raising the price for the service.
All I'm looking for is ideas for changing long distance purchases to mirror CMP's way of doing business.
Thanks,
Don

Yeah, well I'm not defending dealers. BUT they have to follow the rules and as a dealer, we are strapped with more than a few liabilities that, shall we fail to do things correctly, lets just say its not a slap on the wrist, more like a full fledged assault on you and your character that may end up in huge fines and jail time.

Yes I do have an FFL. Its more and more a pain in the side. I have it to support a rifle team with firearms and supplies and to be able to get dealer pricing on the parts we use lots of. I do a few side deals here and there along the way. I don't charge much. Normally 20 bucks-- but by the time you sit down in your spare time(for me it should be overtime.....) and do all the paperwork etc... phone calls and so on, then that 20 bucks ain't squat it just covers your time. It is NOT a cash cow for sure.

Of course I'm not a full time gun shop etc....

One other thing that NICS doesnt' cover if done on the opposite side of the deal-- local/state laws. I am fairly sure thats why its required to have a local dealer do the work. Only the local dealers know if there are other requirements, and they also know the local sales tax rate etc....

Why CMP can get away with it I'm not sure, yet the last time(years ago) I got anything from them it was way more of a hassle of paperwork, notarized stuff, record checks, finger prints etc..... that, save for the cost, it would be much easier to order from a wholesaler than put up with all the CMP stuff.

No flames intended, just my look at it.(now if I could get a bunch of transfers at 50 bucks each I could turn a bit of cash.....)

Jeff

Basically, the CMP is a quasi-public entity, chartered by the US Congress. The rules under which they operate are unique to their mission.

From the CMP website:

Yes, that is correct.
But, my basic thesis is that we consumers should be able to buy rifles from a distant dealer having that dealer do the NICS check, as opposed to paying some local FFL holder to do it. The end result is the same. A person with a clean bill of health with respect to the law gets approved, and one who is not in good standing with the law gets rejected.
What I'm trying to do here is improve our lot by making it easier for us honest folks to acquire a gun.
When I was pondering writing the above, I likened this situation to that of land owners in a zoning issue. We all band together for a common purpose so that our views are made known. I'd like to somehow have the tide turned in our favor, rather than having everything become more difficult for acquiring a gun, have it become easier. There is no law that says a distant dealer cannot do the check. So, why can't we somehow get him to do it in the future. That's what I'm seeking input regarding, how CAN we do it; not reasons why we can't, or worse, shouldn't do it.
I know one thing for sure. And, that is, I pass on buying many rifles for sale in our classified section here on 24 Hour because of all of the grief I have to go through to get the rifle; one that I might otherwise buy absent the grief.
Don

If ya want to get really pushy then ask ATF why folks can sell to each other without any paperwork at all? Seems like the whole thing is a scam.

As to buying guns or not buying them IMHO 20-50 bucks has never once stopped me from buying one. Considering time and money invested in firearms 20-50 bucks is nothing much again IMHO.

And finally consider this end. The starting dealer is pricing due to what it costs him in time and paperwork. If you give him the end of the job that belongs to the ending dealer, then you are adding to his paperwork load. At that point he'll most likely add a bit to cover more work.

Best I can see you are wanting something for free-- which is not a bad thing in my books, but best of luck on getting it to happen. I don't see it changing.

In the meantime your best bet is hit all the gunshows like my inlaws do and look for paperless guns. They still have the mentality that the govt can't or won't find them when the time comes....

BTW since you have a dealer that will charge 20 bucks why don't you stay with that one. I have one team shooter that buys collector garands on the side. He calls me when he locates me and I'll send the dealer a copy of my license. The shooter sends his money in. Just a bit of work for me plus a stamp and envelope and time. Then the gun gets here and he drives over, fills out the paperwork, I call it in and record all the data into my log book to recieve and to sell, then cover the 4473 paperwork etc... and file it all. I generally get 20 bucks for this trouble.

And let me tell you NO one is paying for the hours spent going over books and CYA when the ATF comes to check your books. Thats lost time and money. As is the renewal fee for the FFL.

I think you are as tight as I am but we both have to get over now.

Jeff

I will say this, the next time I sell a gun that I have to ship across country I will charge an EXTRA $20.

The hassle of boxing up, buying tape, and dealing with the idiot behind the counter at the PO is really worth at least another $50.......

It isn't cheap to pack and ship guns. Last one I shipped, I went to a mailbox store, and found the box I needed for $9. A roll of bubble wrap was another $6, and FedEx third day was $16.

FedEx third day is by far my favorite method of shipping firearms. It's reasonable, and the people here have no special interest whatever in firearms. I've packed handguns right in front of them, and all they do is take my money and deliver the goods promptly. You do have to go to the office, not one of the satellite pick up stations.

I'm very fortunate to have a table-top dealer friend that handles used guns for $10, new for $20, and I have a concealed carry permit that gets me out of the $7.50 background check.

Yes it does. It absolutely does.

Whenever I called in a NICS yellow form I made sure the buyer showed me his ID, to insure the name he was using was actually his. That's the key to the whole deal.

What are you going to do, mail your drivers license to the 'far away dealer'? That still wouldn't work, would it.

The CMP, beside being 'quasi-goverment', does have a bunch of hoops to jump through to insure (somewhat) a valid check of the buyer.

In other words...

You need to stand in front of a FFL holder and show your ID to pick up the rifle, can't do that via fax.

How do you propose that I as a distant dealer verify your physical address as required on Form 4473(even the new updated version that just went into affect on the 17th of Oct.)? Why is your local dealer charging you to do a NICS check? It doesn't cost him a dime other than his 5 minutes of phone time 99% of the time.



I would be more than happy to do the NICS check on you. But under Federal Law, I still need to send out of state sales to another FFL holder. Intra state sales I do not, but that also encompasses a lot more paperwork on behalf of the buyer.

Imagine...before the GCA '68, you could pick up the Herter's catalog and just buy a Browning Hipower, or whatever. How did we manage to survive?

Yeah,
That's where I'm at with this thread.
We gun owners have been getting chit on so long we don't know any difference, and some guy actually like getting chit on. I don't.
I remember the times you mention referring to the Herter's Catalog.
As far as verification of essential data, a copy of the driver's license mailed in along with the 4473 would suffice. All of this verified and notarized by a Notary Public would be as good as standing in front of the dealer face to face.
What I'm actually trying to do here is change the way we gun owners are treated as a group of honest men and women, from being looked at as if we are far out lunatics, which we aren't. We've lost respectability in the public, like we are out to kill anyone who is in our path. That's my take after watching the whole gun ownership thing degenerate from the late 1940's till now. And, I want to make it easier for me to buy a rifle from BW or Allen so I don't have to kiss some local dealer's azz and drive 50 or 100 miles to do it, along with dropping $50 for the insult. I've spent enough in dealers fees in the last three years to buy a nice Bob Owen sporter, and I'm ornery enough to try to change that.
I do know that the ultimate change is to get rid of the NICS all together, but as I mentioned in my original post, I, you, we can't get the entire thing done in one action. Doing it in steps actually works best in life, for everything like this.
I worked as an Election Volunteer for the NRA several years ago during an election. Reviewing data, I found that during the initial 18 month period the NICS thing was in effect, not one person was rejected, for any reason at all. So, this begs the question why have the law at all? If no one is going to get weeded out in the NICS sorting process.. It's all BS, as we here on 24 Hours know. But, to get that changed, we must do it in steps, and this is my way of doing the first step. If someone has a better way, let him state it and I'd be happy to march along that route. Oh, and a liitle more on NICS. Most all of the NICS refusals or holds, are administrative in nature. Mistaken identities. So, if you look at the entire NICS check data, you find VERY FEW rejects that are valid. It is a nightmare created out of hysteria, not something worth tax payers money. A crook is ALWAYS going to find a way to get a gun, including making one himself. So, we honest citizens are made to follow some liberal's hysterical rules, not something that will eliminate felons from getting their hands on a gun.
I'm willing to work to get that injustice corrected.
Don

The CMP got congressional approval. kwg

And you think the democrats had nothing to do with it?

Where you been the last 30 years?

Democrats are for the people. They don't want to take away our guns. To which party the most of people on the anti-gun brady bunch belong? I'm sure you won't find a single democrat senetor or congress person lining up behind this group!