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Joined: Apr 2001
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I am just curious was just conversing about the speed diffs between the 223 and the AI.

If you experience with this please give us your input.

Here is what I am looking for.

Have you taken a 223 and done speed testing with it, and then leaving it as is except for punching to AI done the speed testing again.

I am trying to find a few fellas/ladies or whatever who have actual experience with said project. I've a date with making another PD rifle this winter and am looking this a way. Perhaps

I am guessing the typical 100 to 150 fps gain but have not tried it myself so am trying to go to school on someone elses $.

Many thanks in advance for your input.

A quick reminder I am not looking for SWAG type of methods here, but actual factual kind of goodies.

Gracias

Mark D

Somehow or another I gotta believe that DZ has some insight to this...grins


"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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I've played with the numbers on quickload.

One thing to keep in mind is the SAAMI pressure for the .223 is 55k lbs psi.

Comparing a 55k .223 load against a 60k 223AI load usually shows a gain of 150 fps or so.

Comparing .223 at 60k to 223AI at 60k indicates a difference of less than 50 fps, in most cases.

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Personally, I'd lean toward handloading the standard .223 Rem. I'd ramp-up the twist to about 1-7 though, for increased splatter with varmint bullets, and accuracy with the heavies.

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Shane -I am not familar with the quick load stuff. If you could do this for me I'd appreciate it.

I hear from a few fellas here about using 21" AI's and 50 grainers running at 3750. To me it sounds awefully stout but these fellas seem more than comfy with said idea.

Could you run that and let me know what you think?

Many thanks

Mark D


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I'm thinking to do that you would have to be using the highest capacity brass, optimum powder, moly, and have all the planets aligned.


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Here's the QL calcs using max density of 105%, and max pressure of 65K lbs-psi, 21" bbl, moly'd 50gr VMax:

Code
Cartridge          : .223 Ack Imp
Bullet             : .224, 50, Hornady V-MAX BT 22261, Friction Proofed
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch or 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 21.0 inch or 533.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

31 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 100%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 748                     104.2     31.5     2.04    3615    98.4    65000   13270   0.813
Hodgdon H322                       102.4     28.8     1.86    3587    99.7    65000   12247   0.812
Hodgdon BL-C2                      104.8     32.0     2.07    3577    97.6    65000   13265   0.824
Hodgdon H335                       101.3     30.9     2.00    3576    98.8    65000   12821   0.818
Ramshot X-Terminator               100.2     29.2     1.89    3570    99.7    65000   12292   0.820
Ramshot TAC                        105.0     30.9     2.00    3566    97.6    64811   12921   0.821
SF-033 fl                          100.0     28.7     1.86    3564   100.0    65000   11326   0.829
Somchem S321                       104.8     31.4     2.03    3564    97.8    65000   13005   0.825
Accurate No.2520                   105.0     31.4     2.04    3544    98.6    61851   12911   0.845
Lovex D073                         100.0     29.6     1.92    3543    99.8    65000   11899   0.827
Accurate No.2460                   104.4     30.9     2.00    3541    98.3    65000   12522   0.834
PB Clermont PCL 507                105.0     30.8     1.99    3541    97.3    63169   12849   0.829
Alliant Reloder-12                 104.7     30.0     1.94    3532    99.7    65000   11931   0.820
Accurate No.2230                   101.3     30.3     1.96    3528    98.2    65000   12257   0.830
Rottweil R901                      105.0     28.7     1.86    3510    98.9    61797   12324   0.855
Hodgdon Benchmark                  104.9     29.2     1.89    3507    98.1    65000   11927   0.822
  

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Mark,
I think your .223 to .223 AI comparison in the same barrel would make a great Campfire project rifle. Now, all we need to do is lobby for support among the fellow Rifle Loonies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good Shooting,
HBB


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HBB-I think so as well, I am a bit anal about some things and this is one of them.

I am to be honest quite amazed that none of the AI followers have tried this yet. Although, Dogzapper has not weighed in yet, hopefully he is out putting the coshise on a buck or a bull.

Honestly the 223 AI has me a bit intrigued but I am also a bit, shall I say skeptical of some of the proported speeds. It would be very nice if these speeds could be attained in a sensical and sane manner. I long ago learned that a person can make a round run whatever they want( especially if it is one of their darling round). The question is should they do this. This I also know from experience.

No way now how am I tossing mud at anyone about this. Let's just say for me it seems a bit hard to get some of these speeds in a manner in which I would feel comfy. But then heck even an old dog can learn new tricks!

The thought is a fun one and is a project I may have to delve into myself one of these days. I talked to a smith friend of mine the other day and may just have him get me a AI reamer. I just happen to have 2 233's cut to the 20 and 21" range.

Gotta run have a super night gang

Mark D


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Mark,
One reason I haven't the info. you are looking for is my AI has a 22" vs 20" barrel that was on the gun and I went with 40 gr. NBT's which I hadn't shot previously.
I'll tell you this though. I have popped two primers which is a first to me. About as far as I feel comfortable pushing non moly'd 50 grain V max's is the 3550-3600 range and 40 gr. NBT's at 3900 fps.
Accurate reloading has some data on reducing the barrel length on a 223 and its affect on velocity. Looks to me about 30 fps per an inch of barrel. FWIW


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I did this test this spring. I kept good records, used the same box of primers, bullets and pound of powder. The same cases were compaired before and after forming from the same barrel.
This is the rifle in question
[Linked Image]

The specs are Mod 70 Win push feed. Boyds laminate stock, 26" Gaillard match grade barrel 1in 14 twist.
The rifle was built as a 223 and fired 600 rounds before the rechamber, done by the same smith.

The pre rechamber load was 26.25gr H4895 Win brass (sorted by wt to 92.5gr+- .5 gr) Rem br primer, Hornady 50gr Vmax No moly. col. 2.275(10thou off the lands). This load averaged 3554 fps for 4 five shot groups at 24C. 15 ft from the muzzle. Groups size was .568" for the four test groups. The brass had been loaded three times. This part of the test was done July 23 2004. I had bee using this load for years in this gun.
The rifle was then sent to the same smith for a rechamber. I was having another 223AI built on a Rem 700 action. I saved about twenty rounds of loaded 223 ammo for testing and kept all the same components to work up a load after the rechamber.

Once I got the rifle back. I started the experiment. On June 28 2005 I fire formed the remaining 223 ammo. Four five shot groups averaged 3411 fps at 15ft from the muzzle, 14C. A drop of 143fps. This was very low pressure and would not form the shoulder and blackened the cases halfway down the body. Accuracy was .728" for the four groups. I then began load work up. 27gr of H4895 completely formed the brass with a velocity of 3530fps.

I had saved the original cases from the 223 loads to compare for pressure signs. I realize that primer flattening/pitting and case head expansion may not be all that accurate so I though I would decap the primers and mic them for comparison as well. I think a strain gage added to this experiment would add alot.

Anyway load work up with the 223AI and formed brass gave these results
H4895 27.5gr 3554fps col 3.005(10 thou off lands)
28 3610
28.25 3664
28.5 3699
29.0 3781 max load primer pitting noted but no ejector marks or loose pockets. Primers were on average 10 thou wider when measured and compared to the original 223 load.

As best as I can tell pressures were similar to the 223 load of 26.25 grains when the AI was at 28.5 grains. Note the throat after the rechamber was about 30 thou longer
The difference in case volume that I measured before and after forming the same case was an average of 1.9 gr H2O, 1.5gr of H335 powder,1.3gr Benchmark and 1.2gr H4895. these are average numbers for 5 cases.

Althought the pressure comparisons are subjective I feel quite comfortable running this rifle around 3700 fps with 50 Vmaxs. I have reloaded the same 20 cases 7 times at this speed with no evidence of loose primer pockets. This rifle showed an increase of 135 fps after the rechamber. Funny that the original drop was 143 fps.
I have three other 223AIs and can run the same load in two of them. One has a factory barrel rechambered and does show signs of pressure.

The accuracy After the rechamber is unchanged althought as an AI it seems to prefer Benchmark powder and still shoots around half inch groups.

As stated earlier a strain gage would be ideal for this kind of testing as I think that these small cases are more difficult to read for pressure and the Ackely improved case may alter bolt thrust and therefore discount my attempt at objective comparison.

So what do you all think? Will a 1.9 gr increase in volume (about 6.5%) alow for a 150 fps increase? More?

Looking at that Quick load data showing 65000psi in the 3500fps range all I can say is that the three match grade barreled 223AIs I have run those speeds at much lower charges.
I have always felt that if you can reload the same brass multiple times with out stretching your primer pockets your load should be ok.

Any comments or concerns?

Growler

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I would say that your 26 inch barrel should give you a free 100+ fps over the 21 inch barrel used in the quick load data.
What length were your other match grade 223AI barrels?


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Thanks for the info. Its the kind of stuff that makes a Rifle Looney's day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good Shooting,
HBB


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The other barrels are both Gaillard. One is 23" 1in 12 twist the other is 24" 1in8 twist. The same loads fired in these three rifles show less than 50fps difference. All chambers cut with the same reamer. Twist probably has some effect as well as the individual characteristics for each barrel/action combination.

What do you all think about using the number of reloadings a piece of brass can take as a indicator of pressure? I think that this would be a good experiment to try. Reload 10 pieces at increasing pressures to see how many reloadings a certain charge would allow. I am set up to reload at the range but this may need to wait until next summer as it is getting alittle cold up here.
Any one want to donate a strain gage?

Growler

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I just loaded and shot 5 each of the following with WW brass, H335, Rem 7 1/2 BR primers, and 21 3/4" Mike Rock 1 in 14 twist barrel chambered/installed by GA Prescision:

28 gr. /H 335, 50 grain naked V Max's=3545 fps average
28.5 gr./H 335, 50 grain V max's=3600 fps average
I won't go to 29 grains as I blew a primer there before at 3650 fps

The following are 40 grain Combined Technologies Balistic Silver Tips which are just just Nosler BT's with whatever they use as a coating

30.5 gr./ H 335, 40 gr. CT BST's= 3750 fps
31 gr./H 335, 40 gr. CT BST's= 3870 fps

FWIW


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FVA

I tried H335 at first as others here have had good results. Accuracy was good but I found it very temperature sensitive. I will shoot at temps varying from -20C to +35C and velocity and pressures were wild. From my load notes I see 110 fps change with same powder lot from -1 to +15C.
I would try another powder like Benchmark,H 4895, XMR 2015 or N133.

Growler


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