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Quick question.

Why aren't side by side doubles seen in trap, skeet, or sporting clays?

Were they once popular? And if so, why no longer?

You can shoot them in any of the mentioned. There are a select few that still do at a competitive level. Main reasons is that the sight plane isn't as good as an O/U or single barrel.

Yes they were pretty popular back in time.

Makes sense. Having had no experience with them, I wondered.

I assume the handling abilities are what make them as popular as they are for hunting? Do they lend themselves to instinctive shooting more than other platforms? I know tradition and craftsmanship has a lot to do with it.

I shoot mine at the clays course often. The killer is barrel regulation on sxs is never as good as o/u.....but I love my guns.

I suspect that I don't shoot well enough that barrel regulations is a serious issue...

We have a few bird hunters that shoot trap with us using older SxS's. Most do ok with them, a few are really good. Other than an occational nostalgia shooter the majority are just practicing for upcoming hunts.
Nice vintage guns, hunters though as many show significant wear and alteration.

Me as well....

I love SxSs and have a few. But for some reason I always have shot an O/U better, especially on clays. Not sure why. One issue is that I have "cross dominance." (No, not THAT thing they used to tar-and-feather fellers for! It means I'm right handed and have a dominant left eye). Once I figured that out--after missing many easy shots--my shooting with both types of double got a lot better. But I still shoot an O/U much better, especially on crossers where you actually have to LEAD that bird!

I never did as well with a SxS on trap but I've shot some of my best tournement rounds in International Skeet with a SxS. I find the SxS mounts better from the low gun positionand it is easier to shoot crossing birds.

I am surprised by that assertion as I have never seen that before. Can you point me to some data or tests that draw this conclusion. I can see where it might be a matter of more modern mass production O/U's are better regulated than older production sxs due to improved mfg. techniques but I would like to understand the mechanics if it is simply related to the barrel orientation. Thanks

SxS have more perceived recoil due to the positioning of the barrels not being in a straight line under your eye. They want to torque right or left.

In addition they also tend to have more barrel flip upwards than an o/u. The barrels of the o/u being more of a one piece solid unit due to their positioning one over the other reduces the amount of upwards barrel flip.

All of this makes the o/u a little more comfortable-and some feel a lot more-for a long day of clays when many rounds may be shot.



The barrel flip of the sxs is also felt by some to result in needing a different comb height dimension.

Some years ago,George Digweed of England won several World Skeet Tournaments with a SXS...it's all a mindset

Digweed could probably win with a Mossberg pump.

In his case you not only have mindset, but eyes, technique and experience honed but more rounds than most of us can imagine. He makes few mistakes regardless of what he is shooting and anything but the top of the pile is a bad day.

I've watched him shoot and it is a job to him. The fooling around and fun starts at the end of the day. During the tournament leave him be. Targets that we brake and then pat ourselves on the back thinking we did great, he just moves on to the next station and starts over with little emotion.

Some of the young Bucks have knocked him off the top recently, but in his prime he was probably the best of our time.

I own a number of SXSs. There are a few ideas that could stand some clarification in this discussion.
The "sight plane" issue vis a vis the O/U. That kinda depends on how one was taught to shoot. I was taught to look at the target not at the bead or the barrels. I was taught that, if my gun fit me properly, it'd shoot where I was pointing it/where I was looking. So....under those conditions the sight plane is not a factor.
SXSs and perceived recoil: SXSs as a class tend to weigh less than equivalent O/Us (I am sure that one can go find an exception but the idea is generally true). The difference is about a half pound across the board. In addition, SXSs tend to balance between the hands and O/Us tend to be a bit more balance forward. Those two qualities of the SXS, will result in greater recoil both perceived and free.
Stocks tend to be different. SXSs, especially older guns, tend to be shorter stocks with thinner wrists as well as more drop. These qualities add to nimble handling (I have read a description - on another forum - that SXS are meant to be handled like a wand....the best at field work.) They also affect perceived recoil.

Q. - SXS barrels..."they want to torque right or left."
I am not an engineer but....doesn't torque require a rotating mass? Something spinning, twisting? If that is so, it would be largely, if not totally, absent in a smoothbore.
There is a "yawing" effect caused by the right or left barrel recoiling back and around the balance point. Can that be considered a kind of torque?

PeteD,

You are correct in many of you points, our major difference would be you seem to be primarily referring to field sxs and I to competition sxs. In which case some of the weight difference, handling qualities and stock differences are not as great between the two.

I've shot a lot of sxs and even weighted up to the equivalent of an o/u and with similar stock dimensions they rap me harder.

I struggled a little over the word torque trying to get it right and you are correct that perhaps I didn't do so. The point is that with an o/u the barrel is directly under your eye and recoil line essentially follows straight back along the line of the comb. With a sxs the rib is under your eye and the barrels off to the side. The recoil is no longer straight back, but twists-torque?-off to the side. Small difference, but some with experience think it does increase perceived recoil.

The more I think about it I think torque still applies, or is at least in line with your definition to a rotating mass. The recoil of a sxs causes the mass of the shotgun to want to rotate right or left from the center line.

Put it a different way...

Drill a hole top to bottom through the midpoint of the gun, between the barrels, and set the whole thing on a pin or rod.

Touch off one barrel, and you will have your "rotating" motion.

Whether torque or yaw is the technically correct term, the effect is the same.

Bingo and described well. Thanks

Most S x S's I have ever seen/shot have too much recoil to want to shoot as a target gun. YMMV

As to the sight plane you can look at the target all day, and I hope you do because that is what breaks targtes. However you can still see down the sight plane which you are looking down to see the target. Which on a side by side weather it is a concaved or raised rib is a much wider sight plane then an O/U or single barrel gun.

Yes Goerge can shoot anything you put in his hands. But even he will tell you that its a slight disadvantage with the side by side. Come on Battue who is knocking Goerge off the top? He can't win them all otherwise nobody will want to play with him.

I'm thinking when Faulds shows up, he worries a little more than in the past.

One of may favorites was always Paddy Howe and of course the crazy AJ Smith-the sporting clay equivalent of Babe Ruth-both multiple open and world champions of the past. Today they can't hang within 20 targets of Digweed and Faulds. Sooner or later age takes its toll and the young Bucks have their day.

The English boys still talk of the "Clash of the Titans" when a young Digweed dethroned AJ and never looked back.


How ya doing Bud?

Did a search on AJ to see what he was up to and found this. WTH was he thinking?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Smoker-Smith-kills-wife-leaves-him.html