Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Hunting with target bullets...?

Why are some target bullets recommended for hunting (such as VLD, Amax and Scenars), but Matchkings and Custom Competitions are not?

Merely from an appearance standpoint, they all look basically the same. Other than the Amax with its plastic tip, they are all hollow points, with a non-tapered J4 jacket and a lead core.

Sierra for example even states in their manual not to use Matchkings for hunting, meanwhile Berger encourages it.

I am also not sure why suddenly target bullets are the only bullets to use for hunting, because all other bullets are archaic due to low BC's.



Custom Competition:



Scenar:



Matchking (top), Berger (center), Amax(bottom):

One factor that probably comes into play is the lead core. If I am not mistaken, JB once noted that Berger's cores were 100% pure lead while the SMK's had 3% (or thereabouts) antimony in their core. This would explain the violent expansion of the Berger over the SMK.

I hunted with 168 SMK for years in my .308, never lost a deer and all were one shot kills. But, back when I started hunting where were not as many ACCURATE hunting bullets as we have today. As I got older I realized that the cost of the bullet is the smallest expense in a hunt and could be the difference between taking home the bacon or going home empty handed. I now us a bullet that is designed as a hunting bullet and I know it will open up and perform as it is designed to do. I have used Hornady, Sierra, Barnes, Nosler and Speer hunting bullets as well as their 'match' bullets and all are VERY accurate. In fact the Barnes 95gr. TTSX is one of the MOST accurate bullets I have ever shot from my 16" ARP Xtreme 6.8SPC. Just choose the bullet that matches your game and you will be good to go.

Dog, 'archaic' means 5 years in the Marketing Lexicon.

My target bullet Berger aka 'Instant Death' VLD took my last deer and will probably get the next deer or elk.

I had a period of about 5 years where in ignorance I used 7mm Matchkings for deer and elk. Given their accuracy, nearly everything was taken with neck shots with absolutely no complaints. I've moved on to other calibers and slugs at the moment.

Still, 152 grains of lead moving at 3000+ fps second is going to kill most North American big game with any decent placement at all.

Target bullets are designed with one goal in mind, to punch the paper as precisely as possible. Terminal ballistics are not important in target bullets; they are not designed to expand reliably or predictably, or at all. The core is probably not bonded to the jacket. Since you will shoot a lot more target bullets than you will hunting bullets, they are designed to be lower cost.

Now I can tell you after many years of doing pit duty, I do not want to be hit by a target bullet.

I shot several coyotes using the Sierra 53 gr. hollowpoint target
bullet in a .223 Rem. Usually worked okay, but a 50 grain Sierra Blitz was better and a more reliable killer.

But the Bergers' "violent" expansion happens deeper into the critter than with a Matchking, bone or no bone. That' why they are THE LR game bullet.

Same here, only the 52gr. Too many crawl-offs with it. Hard to justify using it when I could shoot Blitz or SX for about the same cost with nearly as good of accuracy, but the Blitz and SX would turn a chuck into purple jelly with no crawl-offs.

I wasn't arguing for one over the other. Just saying that in this case, the core is probably the explanation for the difference in expansion performance.

I been stuffing my own rifle ammo, that reloading for those of you in Rio Linda since 1968. That would be some 44 years now. I never shot target bullets at game period. I never found the bullets that I could buy then or now to be inaccurate. Then again I was never all that concerned about getting the last 1/4 inch groups or that extra 100 fps either. I started loading my own ammo for the economic reasons, it cost less per shot, or so Fred Huntington said it did. I found out no, I just shot 5 times as much. I still uses the same Rockchucker press I bought in 1968. I remember being very happy with turning out 2in groups out of my then new Remington 700 7mm Remington Mag and 175 gr Nosler Partitions. I also recall that I killed every head of game I shot with that rifle too. And by my journals I killed quiet of few head of game before I when rifle loon. I became effected with that affliction some times in 1972, it that year I added 7 more rifles to my collection for some reason.

These days every body writes about 1/2 inch groups they get all day long, and the half mile shot they made on that spike horn they took last fall. Its just the fad of the day. Me I am going back to more simple times, a updated 175 gr Nosler Partition Load for my current 7mm RM. I just turned 57 and well I am more interested in shooting big game than writing about shooting big game. Last years deer fell to 150 gr fusions, like they did every season since I gotten the new 7mm RM.

Well about 4-5 years ago I decided my M70 PF in 300 Win mag needed to go prairie deer hunting again so I went thru the bullet shelf and found 2 boxes of 168 gr Sierra International Hollowpoints, yeah the predecessor of the Matchking. Worked up a load with a max dose of IMR 7828. Shot 2 whitetail bucks on the move about 2 seconds apart at 200 or so yds quartering away both were hit in the back end of the ribs exiting on the bigger buck behind the far shoulder and in frt of the far shoulder on the smaller one. Was kinda of a neat piece of getting after them and neither went very far. couldn't really tell much damage difference between them and a similar placed 165 Horn SP. Guy at Sierra customer service said they didn't recommend them for hunting use and I asked why? He said they might not expand, I laughed and assured him that they surely did. He probably thought people from SD were retards for using them deer hunting and I told him I just figured I had to try them . At 3200 fps muzzle vel they expand fine at 200 yds or so.Prolly still telling his buddies and coworkers about South Dakotans. What the hell I'd do it again tommorrow they worked fine for ME. Magnum Man

gmsemel Well said. Though I like my rifles to do a little better than 2" I don't have to have 1/2" groups to keep me from jumping off a bridge either. I also don't put much stock in the long range stories I read and I would certainly never try that myself on a live animal. I have always stuck to the 2" high at 100 sight in and figure that keeps me shooting at hair at out to about 300 yards which is plenty as all of the deer I have killed have probably averaged 50yds or a little less including two that were about 200yds.

I've wondered that myself... Matchkings aren't suggested for hunting by Sierra (who makes their own purpose-built hunting bullets) but long range hunting guys have been using 'em for a long time, and I've seen (though I've never used 'em that way and don't intend to) enough photographic evidence to convince me they're up to the task.



I've not met anyone who says they're the "only" bullets for hunting... I assume this is hyperbole... the observation that I've made is similar, but concerning monometals... I mean, when did deer (which are extraordinarily easy to kill if hit in the boiler room) evolve bullet proof hides and titanium skeletons to necessitate $40/50 projectiles?

I suppose the answer to both our questions is the same... to each his own.

Me, I've had fantastic results from good ole fashioned Interlocks and Ballistic Tips... some of the former... GASP... are even ROUND-NOSED!

Hmm... Perhaps there's someone out there who has written a book expounding the technical superiority of Betamax over VHS ...er, that is, of one bullet shape over another, who works for a company that doesn't (or didn't) build anything _but_ match bullets, and who is very popular right now, that says they're better.

Probably not; it just came to mind.

There's also something in the back of my mind about certain people and their money being soon parted. Wish I could come up with the whole phrase...

As technology has improved over the past several decades, we now have tools to make shooting at longer ranges more reliable. It isn't difficult anymore to find rifles and loads that shoot legitimate 1" groups consistently. With reliable handheld laser rangefinders, distance estimation is no longer a problem. Computer programs can give you the trajectory for your load at a given elevation and set of atmospheric conditions. What you're left with are the vagaries of the wind. Better (higher) ballistic coefficients work better in the wind by giving you more margin for error.

If you aren't interested in shooting past 200 or 250 yards, there isn't any need to look at the streamlined bullets with a high BC because there isn't going to be much difference between bullets with a high BC and bullets with a low BC at those distances. It doesn't take long plugging some numbers into a ballistic software package to see what a difference a better BC can make in wind drift at longer distances.

Somebody shooting deer at under 200 yards just needs a plain old cup-and-core bullet designed for deer - no need for high BC bullets there. High BC bullets are specialized instruments just like rifle scopes with ballistic reticle or turrets, laser rangefinders, spotting scopes, "big eye" binoculars, handheld wind gauges, and accurate rifles (i.e., rifles capable of a high degree of precision). If your hunting doesn't demand any of those specialized instruments (e.g., deer hunting at ranges under 200 yards), then you don't need them - it's that simple.

I agree that nothing special is needed out to 500-ish. With all the specialized equipment you mention, you'd have what you'd need to deal with any-BC-bullets out a lot further, too. That's not what those bullets are good for, but it does illustrate the generalized fallacy/trap so many fall into.

I know that for years it has been said not to use "match" bullets for hunting and the possible expansion thing was the reason.

But someone that I shot with on the 2nd FSSG Rifle Team while @ CLNC in the late 70's "liberated" a rather large quantity of LC M118 ammunition and has hunted with it up until recently through his pre 64 Model 70 Fwt. 308 WCF. He has killed many whitetails, hogs and a few black bear all with one shot; so in almost 30 years and 2 barrels they have worked rather well.

I guess YMMV.
Steve

Agreed.

Why don't bullet companies make a bullet with a tapered jacket, but with the same profile as a target bullet? If Hornady for example, made an Interbond, with the same profile and BC as an Amax, wouldn't that cover everything?