Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Gelatin Testing Last Week... Bad News for 380 Lovers...

I was privileged to attend the Special Operations Training Association of the Upper Midwest (SOTA-Midwest) last week in Alexandria, MN. I heard some excellent speakers, spent some time with some really great switched-on Special Ops guys, and had a few wobbly-pops besides.

Monday afternoon I was privileged to attend the Federal-ATK ballistics demo put on by Johan Boden, who is Fed-ATK's ballistics technician. I've known him for about 8 years and have shot IDPA with him many times, and have attended his classes several times. His job consists of two things: 1) testing Federal-ATK ammunition (all types, civilian and LE, rifle, pistol, shotgun) and their competitors' ammunition in his gelatin lab, and 2) travelling all over North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia demo-ing Federal-ATK ammo for trade shows, LE conventions, etc. He brought about 1000 pounds of gelatin blocks to Alexandria for his demonstration class.

Johan demo'd a bunch of ammo for us, mostly Fed-ATK (Speer and Federal brands) duty ammo in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP, both bonded and non-bonded types. He also offered to shoot his gelatin blocks with any ammo/gun combo any of us had along with, for interest's sake.

As I have stated previously, there is no real difference in performance between GOOD duty-quality 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP ammunition when you're shooting bare gelatin or gelatin covered with clothing (equivalent to shooting a human being wearing clothes, per FBI protocol). Johan's demo's confirmed this, yet again (yes, I've been to his class before!), MUCH to the surprise of many LEO's present.

We only started to see differences in performance in bullets when he shot through intermediate barriers such as laminated auto glass and sheet metal. When intermediate barriers come into play, there is little difference between the calibers again, as long as BONDED bullets are used. NON-BONDED bullets perform very poorly if they are shot through intermediate barriers.

We also shot some non-service calibers and guns, most notably the Kahr PM9 and a Ruger 380 LCP. The Kahr 9mm demo's were no different from the full-size guns with the ammo provided, with the exception that the little gun doesn't perform well with 115 gr ammo. The best ammo for the tiny 9mm's is clearly the 147 gr GDHP and similar bonded ammo, which is slow-moving anyway, and performs superbly out of the little 3" barrel.

Not so with the 380 LCP. ALL AMMO fired through this gun, including ball ammo, failed to meet FBI specs. The best 90 gr JHP ammo of all brands tried (3 different JHP's) penetrated 5" into the gelatin, and the 95 gr ball ammo only managed 8". When you consider that the first 3-4" of gelatin penetration represents the energy needed to cut through skin, this means that standard 380 ACP JHP's are only going to penetrate 1-2" in flesh, and less if they have to punch through bone such as sternum. I've seen previous demo's where animal sternums (porcine, IIRC) were embedded in the gelatin, and the 380 bullets failed to penetrate more than 1" of gel.

Johan does admit there is one commonly available 380 JHP which will come close to the FBI standard, but wouldn't name it publicly (I believe it's CorBon with the Barnes copper DPX bullet).

The cop whose Ruger 380 we used in the demo's was dismayed. He told me he plans to sell his 380 asap and buy a Kahr PM9 like mine immediately.

Again, I got no gripe against the 380 ACP for general enjoyment, plinking, etc. But at this class, once again I've seen this caliber demonstrated to be dreadfully suboptimal for defensive purposes.

Bet it's buffalo bore 380 ammo he is referring to...thanks for the report

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing your experience Doc!

Sorry, he specifically told me it was NOT Buffalo Bore. I asked after the session if it was DPX and he smiled.

Hmmm.... I wonder how the Buffalo Bore heavier 9x18 would perform. Buffalo bore makes it rock and I really like carrying the CZ 9x18.

Very good report Doc, This only confirms My long held belief that the .380 ACP cartridge is utterly useless for self defense especially in the tiny auto's that are such the rage these days..............Hb

Doc,
Those newer 147gr 9mm pills must be better than the stuff of old(I can remember reading all the horror stories about 147 gr feeble performances back in the nineties.)

Thanks for the info!

340boy... yes, many of the old JHP 147's were not very reliable. Expansion wasn't what it should have been, so overpenetration was a real problem.

I know of several agencies that use the 147 gr 9mm in either WW Ranger Talon or Speer GDHP offerings and have very good records of street performance with them. In the little micro-nines like the Kahr PM9, etc, they are very effective.

Very intersting, but FBI needs and commone person on the street who is not going to shoot through a car door are very different. Also his findings do not match up with those of Alan Jones who was the chief Ballistician for the Houston TX PD for a long time and then for an ammo/bullet co. and who now writes for Shooting times about these issues.

I would really like to see that Buffalo Bore 100gr FPHC ammo that I use, and which I chronographed at 1180 from my wifes P3AT, put through these tests.

In addition, we have a fellow over at the Kel Tec forum who actually had to shoot a very large (6'2" nd 265lbs IIRC) knife wielding attacker with his 380 and he not only lived to tell about it and to make the local news lines - which he posted in the forum - but was very pleased with the performance of his P3AT used in that scenario and still carries it daily with even more confidence than he had in it before.

Yeah....I figgered as much. I started drawing the line above .380 after my own observations. Not that it can't ever get the job done. Just not enough there for me to have confidence in it.



Doc - this was surprising to me. I would have bet on the 124gr stuff. Is this an indication that the manufacturers are designing the 147gr bullets to expand at slower velocities now, enough so that the shorter barrels don't negate that benefit?

Seems like I also read somewhere that the heavier bullets are more comfortable in recoil from the mini 9's too. Gonna have to give 'em a try, I guess.

Damn I hate to hear that, as I have a LCP with CT laser in my pocket right now. I routinely carry it in the summer in a pair of shorts. Guess I'll have to shoot em more. I do carry a spare mag.

As usual, very informative info.

Thanks, doc.

MM

Thanks for this valuable info, I too had been steering away from the 147 grainers. FWIW, back when I had a 9mm carbine, the 147 grain loads I tried gave far and away the best groups at 100 yards.

IIRC the 147 grain FMJ load was originally designed to be a subsonic for use in surpessed weapons, specifically for quietly taking out sentries with precision longer-range shots.

Birdwatcher

Thanks for the report! How did the 2 inch .38's do?

I've seen on the net with various ballistic tests the Hornady Critical defense gets a little over 10". So, thats what my fiancee and I pack in our Taurus TCP's.

Inquiring minds want to know.

The crack of a 9 hurts my ears more even with hearing protection, that the only thing I like the 45 for.

Excellent report sir.. Just for S&G, did he test any .25ACP? I bet that stuff would barely penetrate a T-shirt..


The little .380 is at best, a minimal deterrent to any perp. IMHO I'd say it's best used up close and personal - at say, 6" right at the a-hole's mouth or neck (don't mean to get too graphic here).. As far as stopping someone at 5 yards; well, that's not gonna happen for the most part.. That said, I do carry a Kahr P-380 at times during trips into town. ( but we're talking about a town of 3,000..) They have their uses as a small, pocket-gun or similar when anything much bigger is more difficult to conceal.. But that's about it..

If I was venturing into the Twin Cities area though, that P-380 would be left at home and either my Kimber or Kahr P-45 would be on my hip..

The 115 gr plinking stuff in my P-9 works well. I've never had that pistol fail to function yet - no matter what I feed it.. Thanks for the info on the 147 gr ammo.. I'll obtain some for the times I carry that particular firearm.

Thanks for sharing your experience and results.. Much appreciated..

It is a great deer caliber though...

You shot that buck with a 380? Tell us MORE! Load, penetration, where you hit the deer etc. if you don't mind. THANKS!