Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Gelatin Testing Last Week... Bad News for 380 Lovers...

Haven't ever owned a .380, but I've used and carried a 9 Mak for 20 years or so as my truck gun. The Mak is a .380 +P of a sort, shooting a slightly heavier bullet at a bit more speed - but not much. I've used it to put down a road-injured deer, and had it penetrate the skull completely.

The old saw that these little guns aren't much, but nobody ever volunteered to prove it as the target is true.

yes a .380 is a pocket round
but a .380 in hand is worth 1000 .45's at home in the safe.

Well said.

I think of it as: A .380 IN my fist is a whole lot better THAN my fist.

Yep.... And while I carry full size Colt Delta Elite 95% of the time, my petite wife just is NOT going to do that or anything close so the P3AT is usefu for us as it has her armed and gunned up as best as is practical. Again, I think the +P+ 100gr FNHC bullets at 1180 that are in her gun are going to penetrate just fine.

I used to pack the 9mm 124 gr. +P Speer Gold Dot and still like that load. However, I've been suggesting the 147 gr. as an excellent alternative to the 124 gr. +P for awhile now. The 147 gr. is usually scary accurate, recoils less than the 124 gr. +P, and the new generation of 147's are earning great street cred's in actual shootings. My personal Smith & Wesson M/P 9mm is now stoked with the 147 gr. Federal HST. That or the Winchester Ranger T and Speer Gold Dot are doing great work protecting the good guys in the real world. There seems to be a resurgence of the 9mm in law enforcement of late and many agencies are issuing the 9mm 147 gr. loading in some form or another with excellent success.

Note to Doc - I also wanted to use the 147 gr. in my Kahr P9 and the wife's Kahr Lady K9 however both those Kahr's refuse to run the 147 gr. weights. They are boringly reliable with 124's but stutter badly on the heavier bullets. So do I take it that your personal PM9 runs the heavier bullet reliably?

great report!

FreeMe... I don't think you can go wrong with the 124 gr to 127 gr midrange 9mm ammo in any size autopistol, actually. The PM9 in my pocket as I type this is stoked with RT 127 gr loads. I have lots of them on hand and they work great in this pistol. I might go with a 147 gr load when I deplete my stock of RAT's, but I will probably stay with the 124-127's. Sort of fits with my philosophy of picking a middlin'-sized bullet in most of my calibers (140 gr in 270, 165 gr in 308, 180 gr in 30-06, 270 gr in 375 H&H or Ruger).

The virtue of the 147 gr bonded bullets is that, yes, they are designed to reliably expand at low velocities, which means they're somewhat more reliable out of a 3" bbl than the 124-127 gr bullets. Also, as Birdwatcher and others have noted, the 147's are SCARY accurate out of just about any pistol you can name.

The 115 gr bullets, which used to be the go-to bullet in 9mm before the better JHP bullets like GDHP and WW RT came alone, typicall rely on high velocity to expand, and as such are not a good choice in a small 9mm pistol. That's not to say they won't work if conditions are right... I killed a whitetail doe about 10 years ago on an ag-tag with a 115 gr Cor-Bon out of a Kahr K9 when I shot her in the head as she walked under my box stand at a range of about 5 feet.

I wouldn't say the 147 grainers are "more comfortable" to shoot out of a micro-nine. I have shot 124's, 127's, and 147's out of my PM9 as well as other small 9mm pistols... the recoil really isn't objectionable in any of them, and in my subjective opinion really no different.

We didn't demo any revolver loads at this seminar, as nobody brought a revolver (I had travelled by air to MN with carry-on baggage only, so my 442 stayed home, sadly, and all I had on me was a borrowed PM9). But I did ask about it for the class's general edification.

Johan did talk about the Speer 135 gr +P GDHP, which was developed specifically for use in short-barreled 38's like the 442 and Colt DS. He said it performs virtually identically to the 9mm GDHP bullets he demo'd in 9mm and 40 S&W, i.e., 12" penetration in clothed gelatin, reliable expansion, and good barrier-penetration capability.

FWIW, based on all the studies I've seen and participated in (gelatin and real shootings) the very two best loads for a snub 38 are the standard pressure 148 gr wadcutter target load and the Speer 135 gr +P GDHP JHP. Since they shoot to slightly different POA/POI past 15 yards, I've regulated the sights on my 442 and my 340 (I have Crimson Trace lasers on both guns)for the GDHP and that's the only load I carry now.

Yes, Shrap, it is. I have killed deer with 9mm 115 gr Cor-Bon on two occasions. Thanks for posting the photo. What was the range, and the shot placement details?

In my hands, yes. But I have shot that little pistol a lot, and I find I have to grip it very firmly no matter what ammo I run through it. Others who don't have as firm a grip have had it cough on 'em.

Mark, I hear ya on the wife thing, and believe me I will not criticize her or anyone for choosing to carry a 380 for personal protection. It's a personal decision, and the person making the decision is the only one who has to live with (or die with!) the consequences, whether it be a 25 ACP or a 44 Magnum. The only reason I put this up at all was to enlighten those who aren't aware of the performance limitations of the cartridge.

As for the Buffalo Bore loads you mention, Johan did not have any on hand to test, but he told me he has tested them. (You have to understand something about what an ethical guy Johan is: he will not comment on any other manufacturer's ammunition as a matter of principle, whether it be good or bad.) His reply to my question about the BB ammo was to say, very pointedly, that the only 380 ammo he would even consider carrying is the Speer 90 gr GDHP. Take from that what you will.

2 essential requirements here. One is to be able to sneak up close enough to get a lethal shot which is well under 100 yards. Two, is to be able to shoot well enough to hit it in the brain, as there is a lot of deer there to just put holes in that won't result in a dead deer.

I was using handloaded 85 grain hollow points. The gun is a HK P-7 k3 which is quite accurate and I had no doubt I could hit the deer in the brain...

Thanks for the report Doc. No surprise to me about the .380. Nice to hear that the 147 gr. 9mm ammo works better these days too.
I, for one, don't get this bussiness of "if I can't carry something light and small, I won't carry at all," stuff. Either I'm armed or I'm not. If I am, it has to be something that has a solid ability to handle a bad guy. Toy guns don't do this for me. I've been around enough shootings with them to know the difference. Not only are they less, and sometimes alot less effective, but they are harder to shoot well when in a fight.
But that's just me. E

Thanks, Doc. I think you prescribed the .38 spl. Speer 135 gr +P GDHP to me in 2010, and gave me a sample cylinder full. Do you run yours in a non-+P rated 442? I have to figure out how many a year I can run through my early model 642. Thanks.

Yes, I do. I don't shoot it a lot with that ammo, though. I run 148 gr WC's through it for practice, and then one or two cylinders of the +P's 3-4 times a year to be sure the sights are still regulated out to 25 yards.

Not that the fixed S&W iron sights are gonna move unless I knock the barrel out of the frame! (And one nice thing about the CTC lasergrips is the zero doesn't seem to wander at all.)

If I ever shoot my 442 "loose", I'll send it back to S&W and get it "tightened". I've done that with my M65 and an old M15 that I sold last year, and they do fine work of this type for a very reasonable price.

Thanks. I'd have to shoot 40 a year to carry them in a backup capacity.

Thanks for all the info, Doc. Much appreciated!

how come no one wants to test the 100 grain buffalo bore hard cast load?? if anyone has shot that in a 380 you will know that is some serious power and IT HAS TO BE RIGHT THERE WITH 9MM. its rated at 1150 fps. if I shot someone with it that bullet is going way further than 2-3" into the body. I would think the BB hard cast load should at least be equal to a 9mm or 40 shooting HP's provided they expand. penetration should not be an issue with the BB hardcast load even when fired from a gun like an LCP. shooting standard pressure 380 and hollow point bullets, yeah I can see how that would be pretty anemic. but BB is so stout I actually feel like overtime its pretty darn hard on the gun itself. I personally don't care because I am not going to shoot 100's of self defense rounds in the gun.

Was Buffalo Bore tried?