Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Time For Class Proving Evolution

God does send a deluding influence on those who wish to beleive a lie. But for the above qustions the World Wide Flood of Noah's day explains all you are asking about. I am not a scientist but do wonder how, if evoloution is true how did the radio active elements evolve from hydrogen and then begin their decay rate? When a radio active element is discovered how do we know some of it was not washed into place or leached out over the "millions" of years? We don't! There are just too many assumptions for the serious student.

Science shows bones quickly disappear soon after animals die. With a flood the size of Noah's there would be huge amounts of water borne sediments trapping millions of animals and burying them quickly. Thus they would be protected from destruction by bacteria or preditors. There is nothing in uniformitarianism which begins to explain the huge fossil grave yards found in various places in the world. Consider the numbers of bison and carier pigions killed in this contry. Where are the fossils?

I can tell from this post you did not read the essay with gobs of scientific evidence for a young universe; which demands a young earth.

OK, I'll forget the audience. Precisely on what point could the biologist not refute Dr. Kindell? Perhaps Dr. Kindell's point could be refuted or already has been refuted buy someone else. Until we know what Kindell was on about this is just an anecdote.



Kindell is not an example of a Ph.D scientist turning from evolution. His biography shows no qualification in any life science and his Doctorate is in The Philosophy of Theology. He did apparently study something at the Institure for Creation Research (ICR).

Some of the other authorities you cited in the massive post on page 31 are:
Henry Morris - Ph.D in hydraulic engineering. Founder of ICR.
Duane Gish - Ph.D biochemistry. Vice-President of ICR.
Donale Chittick - Ph.D physical chemistry. Adjunct faculty member ICR.

From Institute for Creation Research - http://www.icr.org/tenets/
"All things in the universe were created and made by God in the six literal days of the Creation Week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual, historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or development that involve evolution in any form are false. All things that now exist are sustained and ordered by God's providential care. However, a part of the spiritual creation, Satan and his angels, rebelled against God after the creation and are attempting to thwart His divine purposes in creation".

Whatever the ICR teaches it is not science. Science proceeds from observation to conclusion. ICR and your authorities start with a conclusion of Biblical literalism and try to mangle the data to fit. They are preaching.

I will take a look at some of the individulal claims later.

I did read it. I appreciated the effort towards good-faith debate greatly, too.

There is no way that the Earth is 6000 years old, so it starts from a false premise. When starting from a false premise, and with a predetermined outcome in mind (IE, creationism) and with a system of information, theory, and ongoing research as VAST and elastic as our body of scientific knowledge, I'm not surprised that there are nooks and crannies where folks can make some hay.... but it's not science.

(As an analogy, I bet the Toasterists of the world could completely disassemble a modern car and "prove" that it HAS to be descended from a toaster. That speaks to the complexity and diversity of parts in a modern car; not the viability of Toasterism!)

It's this kind of pseudoscience, reprepresented as being equal to the massive body of vetted research and study of the physical world, that needs to be prevented from being presented to our children in public schools as fact.

It's a good thing that salvation has nothing to do with the age of the earth...and that there are many millions that realize that.

The mass of evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology, geology, chemistry, and other fields is undeniable to a reasonable mind...although it's discounted by 'some' as being intentional delusions by God for believing lies.

That's pretty pitiful really.

You're a tougher man than I.

I checked out at 'thermal dynamics'... ouch.

Will

Reckon he actually believed Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale too...and that God sent them 2 female bears to kill 42 children for makin' fun of Elisha's bald head!

The convolutions necessary to reconcile plate tectonics with a WORLDWIDE flood, all within the last 6000 years, alone are mind-boggling.

The fossil strata I have explored in cliffs up at 10k feet in the high desert in New Mexico were sea fossils, and they were not the result of flood deposit 6000 years ago.

I was not refering to Dr.Kindell. I was posting aobut the Ph.D. biologist.

Because you think The God of the Bible is not able to communicate you make the erronious claim, "Whatever the ICR teaches it is not science."

DUMBASS! (Imagine Red shouting it this time).

IF WE DIDN'T EVOLVE, AND WE ARE HAVING THIS "CONVERSATION", HOW ELSE DID WE GET HERE.

There is no way that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, so it starts wiht a false premise. When starting from a false premise, and with a prederimined outcome in mine (IE, evolutionism) ans with asysttem of information, theory, and ongoing researchas VAST and elasticas our body of scientific knowledte, I'm not surpirsed that there are nooks and crannies where folks can make some hay....but it's not science. It brain washing from pre-school through graduate school. It is a world view.

With what you have posted, you still have not refuted the scienctific facts I posted in the essay.

Ringman, no offense and I wouldn't even say this if you hadn't demonstrated a level-headed willingness to debate this contentious and I presume deeply meaningful topic buuuut...

Not only do I not believe in a God that communicates obtusely, I don't believe in God period. Not yours or anyone else's. I hope you understand that as a citizen of a nation with CODIFIED government neutrality on this matter, which is to say a government that recognizes our right to believe or not believe as we see fit, I am constitutionally bound to defend this freedom and keep it from poisoning public institutions. As well as personally inclined to do so due to my unbeliever status.

Our courts, our schools, our police and city governments... are SECULAR. They must remain so. As a fellow Patriot I think on some level you get this.

I applaud you for hangin' in on this debate.

This really is turning into a Gish Gallop.


Elements heavier than hydrogen were formed in the centers of giant stars. Giant stars eventually explode (supernova). The heavy elements are spread by the explosion.

Biblical literalism doesn't rely on assumptions?


Most bones do. Fossilization is a rare event.

A single flood produces one layer of sediment, coarse material on the bottom and finer material on top. This can be found in any geology text, even some written 150 years ago. If Noah's flood had happened we would expect to see a massive sediment layer like this on top of a dense jumble of fossils of all types. Trilobites, Anomalocardids, archaeopteryx, cynodictis, arsinoitherium, dinosaurs, humans, giraffes, rabbits and Tasmanian devils all in the same layer. Nothing like this is found in the geological record.

Uniformitarianism is not an explanation it's a principle (not an assumption because there is evidence) that physical processes act in the same manner now as they did in the past. Huge fossil graveyards have been explained by huge releases of poison gas or ash from volcanoes killing lots of animals at once before they were buried (dinosaurs in Montana and mammals in Kansas).

During and after the late 19th century bison extermination people made a living collecting bones to be ground up for fertilizer.
Passenger pigieons were hunted mostly for sale in city markets. After cooking a bird and gnawing the bones what happens to them. they go to a landfill or get dumped in the ocean. Not good conditions for fossilization even if fossilization could occur in less than 200 years.

It occurs to me that I grew up in an ancient land (New Mexico). There's a resonance down there that has to be lived to be understood. Not a lot of folks down there preaching a 6000-yr-old planet. The evidence to the contrary is just too blatantly, almost pornographically in a geological sense, on display.

Yep. If one but had the time and inclination.

Refutation seldom changes viewpoint, however.

You have a good day.

Man, you are blinded by your world view. The very topics you point to are some of the very ones I use to suport my science. You cannot explain how the billions of fossils were laid down in water born sediment in the amounts we observe in a naturalistic world. The Flood explains them.

Dr. Sanlin was an evolutionist. He has a Ph.D in genetics. He invented the gene splicing gun. He has over seventy bioloical patents. As an evolutionist he taught the graduate students at Cornell University for twenty-five years. Once he started invistigaing mutations he was amazed. (I doubt you know more than he does about genetics.) At the present accumulation rate of mutation, he maintains you can go back only about 6,000 years to achieve no mutations in the human speicies.

Even Dr. Crick who discovered the DNA molecule saw there was no way it could develope through a random process and said the spacemen brought it to the earth! He called it panspermia.

Zoology is absolutely consistant with God's Word. God said each kind would reproduce after its kind. Both in the fossil record and in living examples we see diversity of species; not continuum.

When Darwin wrote his book in 1859 he didn't know about he cell. He thought it was some kind of jellitinous mass. We know now that even one cell is more complex than the largest city in the world. And I'm supose to beleive it created itself?

The Flood explains geology infinitely better than uniformitarianism. How do you explain the Grand Cayon or any other huge land formation based on the slow gradual change of the present is the key to the past?

Tell us how chemistry gets past a six carbon molecule in a naturalistic world.

Your world view has kept you from seeing the facts. The idea that God uses these as deception is only a deception for those who beleive in evolutionism.

Yeah. Its called microevolution. Completely uncontroversial. Its macro we want evidence on.

Coming from someone who denies scientific proof, physical evidence and logic in favor of a literal interpretation of what is clearly an allegory.

And the faithful look to pastors, who share your beliefs, for guidance in their lives?
It's like the blind leading the blindfolded.

The only 'science' and 'facts' you have shown so far have been concerning Black Holes..........black holes of logic!

No offence intended.

This is based on the idea that stars evolved from the substances from the big bang. You can't have the elements if you can't explain where the stars came from. Cosmic gases would NOT condense based on the known scientific laws of gas mechanics. One astronomer made me laugh when he said the first star was formed a near by star exploded and cause the gas to colapse on itself. Wait a minute! From where did that star come?



Not "assumptionS". Rather accepting the ONE scientific concept of cause and effect. The Cause is greater than the effect in the creation model. The effect is greater than the cause, contrary to science, in the evolutionary world view.



In both the creation and evolution models fossils are rare today. In evolution speculation is necessary to invent a process for their presence. The Flood model predicts them; and in huge quantities.



A single flood that covers the intire world and lasts for thirteen months will be acted on by the same tidal effects we see in the world today. Based on the this knowledge of a world wide flood there would be multiple layers; just as we observe in the Grand Canyon and in almost any road cut.

The fossil record now displays exactly what you are asking of it. That's why some paleontolgist are switching from slow gradual change to believing either multipul huge local floods or the Flood of God's Word.



How in the world do you know about gas from a volcano thousands or millions of years ago? This is a philosophical escape theory to get away from the prediction of the Genesis Flood.

[quoteDuring and after the late 19th century bison extermination people made a living collecting bones to be ground up for fertilizer.
Passenger pigieons were hunted mostly for sale in city markets. After cooking a bird and gnawing the bones what happens to them. they go to a landfill or get dumped in the ocean. Not good conditions for fossilization even if fossilization could occur in less than 200 years. [/quote]

You got me!

YOu still have not refuted the information in the scientific essay.

Bingo! But occationally it does. That's why some Ph.D evolutionist switch to creation every year. See if you can find even one Ph.D. level creation scientist who switched and became an evolutionist. I better bring a lunch.