Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Help fire forming 338-06

Howdy guys
Looking for a little help slash advice with a 338-06 that I am loading for. The rifle came with 50 fireformed brass and had no problem reloading and shooting these. Decided to fireform some more, ran once fired 30-06 brass thru the fl die and loaded a few up 50% would not fire with light primer hits and the ones that did had primer protrusion. The other wilcats I have all have rimed cases. I can actually load a round into the chamber and can hear it move in the chamber when I shake the rifle. Forgot to mention the rifle is a Ruger #1.
My thought is to load the rounds to where the bullet is seated just a couple thousandths off the lands. What do you guys think? Thanks Chris

I'd sure be checking headspace

There should be no problem necking up 30-06 brass and firing them and as a matter of fact fireforming isn't what I'd call it!

I just used Norma or Weatherby (made by Norma) headstamped 338-06 brass and used a meduim-hot load for my AI version.

It does sound like the headspace is off. I'd size some 35 Whelen brass down with your 338 die until it just chambers. No reason not to hunt those loads. Then I'd only resize them enough to just chamber again. No sense FL sizing fully and having the same problem again.

One approach is to use a tapered expander to take them up to 35 cal, then use the 338-06 die to size just enough of the neck so they'll chamber snugly. They'll be headspacing off the little shoulder you'll form near the bottom of the case necks.

I thought it could be headspace until I got to reading about how the 30-06 headspace off the shoulder. To expand a little further the chambering is 338-06 ackley 40 degree.
I,m not so patient so decided to put a round together seating the bullet a couple thousandths off the grooves, went bang fine and no primer protrusion. This rifle is set up for a little guy (13 years old) so the loading is very light (15 grains trail boss)that may be part of the problem as well.
Thanks Chris

Thanks for all the help. I did think about starting with 35 whelen brass but I have all this 30-06 once fired just collecting dust here. Making brass for my 348 wilcats and my 25 krag I have never ran into this problem.
Thanks again Chris

I've fireformed some brass in my day but not the stuff that headspaces off shoulders. Mine has been belted mags and 7-30 waters.

THAT SAID....don't people that do your sort of fireforming seat a bullet to just touch the lands and use the bullet as a sort of "stop" for chamber depth of the casing?? Maybe others will chime in but I think it would work good and actually find you some accurate but milder loads?

I've been fireforming wildcats a very long time using the same method that Mathman outlines WITH seating the bullets into the lands ~0.015-0.020" and a bottom load of medium slow buring powder for that case/caliber...MOST of the time...some times I fireform first with cream of wheat or some other course ground grain. I've never had a problem or a hiccup using this method.

Some wildcats require only the bullet held tight against the boltface by "stuffing" it into the lands, others only require the "false shoulder.

Depending on just how good the smith was at keeping the AI shoulder cut to the correct dimensions a standard '06 case SHOULD fit tight enough in the 338-06 AI chamber to require only fireforming with cream of wheat initially then sizing and firing your regular load.

If a standard '06 case DOESN'T fit snug in the chamber then you must do a false shoulder AND "stuffed" bullet to be certain the case HAS BEEN FILLED OUT COMPLETELY in the AI chamber. P.O himself talked about ~0.050" excess headspace happening with his 25'06 AI if you weren't very careful.

I've used 35 Whelen brass to form my "standard" 338-06 AND 9.3x62 cases just by using Redding Competition shell holders to leave the false shoulder.

I fireformed my 510 Makatak cases from 416 Rigby cases this way and used a simple headspace gage and a caliper to measure after fireforming. I used a Lee dipper of ~20-25 gr 800-X, filled the case with Polenta to the base of the neck, topped with a 2" square of wadded up blue shop towel to keep the Polenta in place. The cases came out almost perfect with the headspace correct. Working up the various loads finished filling out the radiuses.

You need to have patience when you're doing any kind of wildcating or fireforming...you definitely don't want things to go titsup at some future date.

IMO the false shoulder as described by mathman is the way to go.

I don't like jamming bullets into the lands and the false shoulder works exceptionally well.

Well the rifle definitely has excess headspace, confirmed at the gunsmith's today.
Now if I only neck size I shouldn't have any problems? (with the thought of not moving the shoulder?

Thanks Chris

Neck sizing will work fine for you but fixing the excessive headspace is best in the long run.
Merely for the fact that that info may not get passed to any subsequent owners of the rifle whether through a sale or your demise.

You mean like this?



Sounds like exactly what just DID happen.

I wouldn't want to pass along that same problem to somebody else down the line.

A fix isn't all that expensive, and you'll know that it's RIGHT, not just that you figured out how to make it function for a while.

I don't know if Ruger ever factory chambered for the 338/06 in the No. 1.

The "338/06" was around quite a while before the SAAMI standard was sent.

First of all have you tried new factory ammo in it ?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...d-spitzer-box-of-20?productNumber=165705

There are quite a few 338s based on the 06 case other than the SAAMI 338/06. Some have shoulders farther forward than a "normal" 338/06.
The 338 Hawk comes to mind. Step one is a cerrosafe chamber cast to compare with known wildcats.

If you find one that matches just get the barrel remarked and proper dies for it.

If not and it's just a case of someone running in 338/06 reamer too far you have at least two choices:

- Get the barrel set back and rechambered
- Get the barrel restamped "338 Special" and get some custom dies made for it. Use it as is. I would convert to using "basic" brass with no caliber headstamp if you can find them. If not, Hawk offers a straight walled basic case with a 35 Whelen headstamp. Formed to your chamber it would not fit in regular 338/06 (if some fool ignored the headstamp) and if somehow loaded and fired in a real 35 Whelen, it would do no harm.

If it is a red pad with super fancy wood and you can't live with it, I'd be interested in buying it.

Thanks coldbore
Yep my father and I got crapped on with this rifle, we would never pass it on this way. This rifle is set for a nephews buffalo hunt and needs to be a keepsake. As long as uncle chris is in the picture loading ammo no problem. I really want to throttle the folks that sold the rifle to me, and if I can find the traces of the internet sale I will post them here so others will not be taken by them.

My 338-06 built in the early '60's came with 0.022" excess headspace that would eat a case in ~3 firings. Due to circumstance I wasn't able to send it back to the gunsmith to be rectified. The 'smith also supplied the custom RCBS dies with the barrel which obviously WEREN'T cut right...but still worked.

The rifle ALSO is "long throated" 0.600" originally set up for the long discontinued 270 gr Speer bullets.

As stated the 338-06 is a newly SAAMI spec'ed cartridge and as a WILDCAT there are MANY variations to contend with. No different how many OTHER wildcats that ended up as standards...

The thing is to SOLVE the problem not whine, moan or groan..."excess headspace" in wildcats is a bit of a misnomer due to the fact that THERE ISN'T ANY SAAMI SPEC STANDARDIZATION.

When things settled down I talked to my old mentor about my problem which he quickly identified AND furnished the solution. All that was required was a 0.020" horsehoe shaped shim be used, slid around the case between the shell holder and the sizer when sizing so the sizer wouldn't go down to far and push the shoulder back too far AND allow the shell holder/ram to make solid contact with the bottom of the die to keep things square.

I sized cases for 20 odd years that way until the Redding Competition shell holders came out, then I bought a plus 20 thou shell holder which I use to this day. I have 47 of the original 50 cases I made back, then plus 50 new ones I made from 35 Whelen brass.

The rifle will still put 5 - 225 gr Hornady SP into one hole that can be covered by a quarter when I do my part.

The only correct way to get the facts straight is to do a chamber cast as Interthem suggests. Use a set of Hornady headspace gauges to determine the ACTUAL headspace measurements then set your sizing die up to push the shoulder back about 0.002" using Redding Comp shell holders, then WELD OR LOCKTITE the lock rings on so the die CAN'T be screwed with, and leave the correct shell holder IN THE DIE BOX along with clear instructions about the rifle AND the sizer die.

This is NOT a major problem and NOT particularly unknown among wildcat builders that are long in the tooth. Much of this "insider knowledge" is being lost as the older generation go to there rewards.

Don't blame people for not knowing "What the He** and why"...and if YOU bought a wildcat without full knowledge of ALL the facts, blame yourself...and just solve the problem...

Once you learn the complete circumstances you should be able to come up with a simple workable solution that will leave you with an excellent rifle.

AIN'T NO DIFFERENT THAN BUYING A USED CAR...EXPECT PROBLEMS.

By the way...I've been "jamming" bullets into the lands to fireform wildcats for half a century. It is one SURE WAY to center the case/bullet and if you use a little common sense along with it you will understand that the bullet will seat back into the case just like in a seater die in a uniform way...you only need 0.010" to 0.015" "jam" anyway.

NFG, +10. As one of those "old wildcatters" you reference, you are spot on. I remember back when the 25-06 was still a wildcat. Among our group of "chuck slayers" we had three, all made by professional gunsmiths of high reputation. Every chamber was slightly different, needing made to order dies. All shot very well and we never had any problems with them.

I would suggest trying some factory ammo to see if the problem is not the rifle but the dies.

The false shoulder method works better in a single shot that has no camming power like a bolt gun has. (It is also a good idea in any belted magnum as the shoulder are always set back too far from the chamber.)

Just bought two more No.1s right here. Just a wonderful rifle !

One of the problems with the net is no subject gets covered completely, and usually only in generalities...and most people nowdays want "instant answer" for "instant gratification"...most of the important minutia gets left out.

Have a problem, run jump on the net, get at "quickie", run jump on something else...run, run, run. Very few have the time or patience to find the answer the old fashined way...WORK. I'm just as bad in doing it, so I'm not dissing or flaming here.

Shades of the 25 Neidner(or Niedner) ehh...I knew a few that had them in the old days that shot circles around many a benchrest shooter. As soon as I found out Remington was offering a commercial 25-06 I ordered a BDL with the varmint barrel...sometime in late '69 or early '70 but didn't get it until Dec '70(I think). It shot great...bug holes with several bullets and powders of that era. I put over 1500 rounds through it in just over one year, but then I screwed it up totally by having the bore chrome plated. Never shot >1 1/2" afterwards.

I just realized I've been off by about 10 years with the build date on my 338-06. I used that OEM 25-06 receiver to build my 338-06...I've been saying early '60 for the 338-06 when it was actully early 70's. Jezzzz, this old age KRAP can sure mess with mind AND body. What is it???? My mind is still only mid twenty, but my body is 70 going on 127. SHI****.

The net is the only place left for this "oldtimey" minutia, but hardly anyone bothers to do any searching. This same 338-06/ fireforming topic/question has been posited and well answered, SEVERAL times, on several forums and I've answered it many times using my 338-06 as an example. All the various ways and means of case fireforming have been and were covered fully and completely on all the threads, but the same question keeps comming up...time and time again, which leads me to the conclusion the NO ONE bothers to WORK for their answers...

Just like ancient knowledge is lost when civilizations die, so will this wealth of information perish when us "ancients" disappear...no one will know, so no one will care what has been lost...it will just be gone.

Another factor is that most people do own a decent gunsmithing/reloading library.

As you point out, there is very little new under the sun.

Most of the "kids" have no idea who George Nonte, Phil Sharpe, Roy Gibbs and many others were because they no longer read.

They don't know why some cartridges have belts, why case shape has no impact on velocity or why a second focal plane scope with a holdover reticle is silly.

Happily, after we old timers shuffle off to the boneyard, the books will still survive and a few will still read and learn.

I think the best thing is to get the heaqdspace fixed. But you can still work with what you have. Don't reduce the charge 50%, come down maybe 10% and then load the bullet just into the lands.The bullet just into the lands will raise pressure just a bit but 10% back should be fine. Then the bullet will hold the case against the face of the bolt and the case will not move forward. You then have a case that will fit your chamber right but, after very few shot's it will no longer chamber. To reload the next time, partical resize and do that till the case will no longer allow the action to shut. At that point re-set your sizer die by backing out a turn and running the case in it. Try the case in the rifle and it probably wont fit. So then turn the die down no more than a quarter turn and do it again. Keep turning the die down a quarter turn at a time till the action closes easily on it. Lock the die in place right there an you will have allowed for your headspace. But I would get if fixed!