Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR 45-70 vs 45-90, -100, -110, ets

For hunting purposes, it is worth the trouble to go up to one of the longer 45 cases? What kind of velocities can be reached?

The 45-70 has been around for such a long time because it works well and is quite easy to load for numerous bullet weights. The 45-90 is a little bit more finicky to load, but not much more than the 45-70. Those longer than the 90 are supposedly a bit more temperamental, but I have no personal experience with them, so that is just hearsay. It has long been said that the 45-70 is capable of taking nearly every game animal on the North American continent, and I believe it. There is a bit of "romance" involved with the longer versions and more exotic chamberings, which appeals to many shooters. The availability of cases, dies, different bullets and the ease of loading for the 45-70 make it a great chambering for the "beginner" in the realm of BPCR.

Is it worth the trouble to go for one of the longer chamberings? Only you can make that choice. I do have 3 rifles in 45-70 and one in 45-90. I like them all, but that's what I have. I'm sure there will be others chiming in here, so read and weigh all advice in your mind.

Oh, nevermind, just wait for swampy to give the best advice you'll ever get on this site.
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Just kiddin' . . .

I can see that Swampy is "The Man" ! :-)

I can't disagree with anything Otter has written. I have both the .45-70 and .45-90. No flies on the .45-70, however... The .45-90 is just a .45-70 on steroids, just .030" longer. The .45-70 was also called the .45-1/10" and the .45-90 the .45-4/10". Everything else is the same. In fact, except for FL sizing which I seldom do, I just use .45-70 dies for all my .45-90 loading operations.

The advantage of the .45-90, as I see it, is a bit more versatility. Because of its additional length and powder capacity, you have more options for powder charge, wad thickness, and seating depth. I don't find it particularly fussy, but that's just my experience and perception. Another obvious advantage of the .45-90 is getting a bit of extra velocity for really long range shooting, like out to 1000 yards.

I have no experience with the longer cases, and never felt any personal need to go there.

Paul

If a person is going to hamstring hisself and stay in the 45 caliber rut, the 90 might just be the best of them. You can load it at 45-70 levels, and you can also dump in nearly 100 grs with judicious use of a drop tube and a slow pour.
And as already pointed out the 45-70 outlived all of it's offspring, there's got to be a reason for that....
But I have yet to find a cartridge as amicable and easy to work with and achieve top accuracy as the 44-77 has turned out to be. I really have a hard time figuring out why that cartridge went obsolete....

No, it's not worth the trouble to go to the longer calibers, but it is fun.

I started with a 100, then a 90, now a 70. Part of that has to do with the types of bullets I shoot and they way they must be loaded, but the 70 works just fine. The 90 is mostly just more expensive (but it looks so good!). And the 100 is just even more of the same,(but it looks even better).

If I shot conventional bullets I'd be more inclined to stick with the 90 I suppose, but there isn't a wrong answer here.

With one exception. I know of enough people that have had to have a 110 or 120 for their first bpcr, and then decided to
1. quit
2. sell or trade down
3. rebarrel.

If my understanding is correct, that you can shoot the 45-70 out of a 45-100 chamber, I'd go with that for the dual cartridge use.

First I guess I'd better ask if that is correct, can the 45-70 be shot from the 45-100 chamber?

Yes, but it isn't recommended. All kinds of accuracy and fouling problems.

It's just something that experienced BPCR shooters never do.

Paul

Ok, thanks Paul, scratch that. I personally would not trade accuracy for the small benefit of two so similar cases.

I would imagine it's like firing a 458 Win Mag in a 458 Lott chamber. It will work for a while, but the bullet hammering the front of the chamber, plus the fouling buildup, would make for trouble in chambering a Lott round after extended use.

The 45/110 is a devastating hitter on big critters but at least mine is as cranky as an old soldier. Original guns are really a law unto themselves. I am currently using a 44/90 Sharps bottlemeck and it is very impressive in its hitting power. It does seem that the more powder,the heavier the bullet,the more tempermental they are but damn they do it right when you find their sweet spot.

It seems the folks that have the 44/77 and 44/90 absolutely love them. Must be something to it.

The 44/90 dropped this big wild sow wid one shot. VERY decisively.

Waidmannsheil ET.

Big mamma! Did you get the meat back home. Could make some good saussage and smoked back strap...

I like the picture and the Sharp rifle! Lead bullet seems to get the job done as in the past centuries.

Regards

Dom

If you use smokeless the .45-70 will work fine in the longer chambers. The .45-70 is much cheaper to shoot. The resell is much better and easier with the .45-70 if you're buying as an investment. I have 4 .45-70s. What's not to like?

Weidmannsdanke WF. I brought ALL the meat back home. LOTSA sausage(she weighed in at 500 lbs) and I have 2 enormous hams and the loins The big Sharps rounds are pure killing machines with blackpowder and paperpatched lead slugs!

No flies on either but the main lure for me to get the 44/90 was its historical signifigance. The old Sharps Co. sales records indicate that the big 44 was a much more popular cartridge on the plains than the Big 50/90. The 44/77 preceeded those 2 and was the best seller until they came out. It is becoming fairly clear that gg bullets may not be the most practical for the big 44 and there are no historical references I could find nor that I have heard of that had them with anything BUT a paperpatched bullet.

Yep, I was there with ET, and can attest that .44-90 hammered that sow!

The picture I wish I'd been able to get was the view from a distance, the pig down, ET standing there a short distance from it, and a cloud of BP smoke hanging 15-20 feet in the air, testifying to the event.

Wow !
That's one to keep on file.
Someone had an extra cup of stupid, before writing that one.

Have you ever LOOKED at a cross sectioned rifle chamber, or thought about what goes on inside of one ?

GTC

It's Swampy's version of Roy's freebore in a BPCR gun!

how dare you question the great expert of all things BPCR!

As we say in aviation, he has stupid set the "ripple fire". Aside from being a dorky looking buffoon, he's an unmitigated ASS and a self admitted troll.

I designed my .45-2.6-550 (.45 100) reamer to provide LOTS of Tight .459" freebore.
Freshly cut, that section requires a little finish lapping, and than a sniff of longitudinal lapping. The Reamer was DESIGNED to cut a chamber that would run well with a Leeth "Gordon" Greaser, the Jones' Creedmoore, and others of that type.
This chambering can be loaded from Normal BP .45-70 energies up to a pretty exciting reverse duplex ".45-135-550" spec (requires 2 compression) that is pretty doggone rowdy. We've never chronographed that load, It's an offhand only stunt, I AIN'T shooting it of a bench.

Did the same basic freebore set up with my .45-70 reamer, it's a versatile chamber to load for, as well, and can handle .45-83 loadings, when a fixed round breech seater is used.

For dangerous game I'd damn sure want that .45-2.6, it would no doubt have an edge on the shorter case.

Would nonetheless advise you to start with a well built .45-70, Se�or.

GTC

GTC

Yeah, really,......nothing quite as deadly accurate as .200" of .4810"+ "Freebore" to properly 'Slug up' a CB,.....prior to it being immediately slammed back to .4595".

Great for the necks of those cases , to.

GTC

Duh!

Thanks for the correction, Crossfire.

Paul

knew ya' would not mind,

gtc

It works fine in mine. If you ever shot, you'd know I'm right.

From the Shiloh Sharps web site forum discussion:




"You can physically fire a .45-70 in one of the longer .45 chambers, but it strikes me as very poor practice.

Most of us who purchase these rifles work hard to get the accuracy of which they are capable, going through a great deal of effort to cast perfect bullets, size and lube them properly, find the primers, powder type and charge, and overall length that the rifle likes. We get a lot of enjoyment out of getting all we can out of these fine rifles.

What you can expect when shooting a .45-70 in a longer case is probably very poor accuracy, since the bullet will bounce around the chamber for 0.30-0.775" before slamming into the front of the chamber and the rifling at random angles. That will probably result in leading in addition to non-existent accuracy. I'm not sure whether there would be physical damage.

With lead bullets, you may not foul up the chamber, but why anyone would bother to do something so sloppy and so obviously poor in practice is beyond me.

It's like buying a Ferrari and using standard grade fuel. You can do it, the engine will probably run, and you may or may not have long-term damage. But you can bet that there will probably be pre-ignition that can be very detrimental to engine life, particularly if you use the engine like a Ferrari is meant to be driven.

The difference in cost is insignificant-probably $50 or less for cases to do it correctly. In my non-so-humble opinion, if you want minimal effort, either get a .45-70 or stick to the kind of rifles you can buy at Wally World."




Now, to his credit, Swampy never said they were accurate or they didn't make a big mess...

Or, another way to look at it, without much expectation, there can be little disappointment...

DF

It must work for him as they all seem to go in the same hole!

You mean that off the back porch target with powder burns...

DF

They have been accurate....I shoot .38 Specials in my .357 Magnum too.

And I've shot 44 specials in my 44 mag..apples and oranges compared to what you're doing...

He's DEFINING clueless more clearly. with every post.

....and this idiot claims to be an " instructor " ?

Good Grief, Charie Brown

GTC

It's exactly the same thing.

As noted, you don't know the ACTUAL chamber specifications of the chambers discussed from your chamber pot.

"It's exactly the same thing"

Your a [bleep] idiot

GTC

Except...!

It's NOT exactly or even close to the same...!

Now listen up...!

Gonna make it as simple as possible...!

The .45-70 may look like a straight wall case, like .44 Mag/spec cases.

But it is NOT...

It's actually a tapered case with a neck and neck sizing dies can be had. No neck sizing dies for .44 Mag/spec.

Why?

Because, they're straight walled cases.

To summarize: .45-70 and its longer cousins are NOT straight walled cases...!

Don't believe me. Check it out on line.

DF

I've been aware of that since the 1970s. It's pretty much a non-issue.

If you're aware and have been aware (since the '70's) that these are tapered cartridge cases, what trips your wire to make a statement that they're the "same" as straight walled cases when you've just admitted you know that's not true?

I've got to be careful here. You're going to have me thinking and writing in circles just like you...

Wow!

DF

They work the same. The powder ignites and the bullet travels down the bore and the bullet strikes in the same place. The short jump isn't an issue at least on target paper. The taper is almost nothing in that few thousandths that the bullet jumps. It's still in the case when it engages the rifling.

There's the difference, in the handguns the magnums were intentionally made only 1/10 inch longer. There's almost 1/2 inch difference just between the 45-70 and the 90, theres nearly an inch difference between the 110 and the 70. So a bullet fired from the 90 or 110 chamber has to expand to .480 or over and then gets slammed back down to .458. It will work for a few rounds but then the chamber fouls up with both powder and lead and the accuracy that doesn't amount to much in the first place really goes to pot.

The bullet isn't going to expand at all over smokeless.

Woody, get the padded cell ready, put a Little Lord Fauntleroy Hat in with the stuffed animals,........

Don, go get some Thorazine,........

I'll go and see if we have a straight jacket that will fit this idiot.

GTC

Another thread polluted by the resident POS. Swampshit, don't you get tired of your breath smelling like crap by constantly and intentionally talking out of your ass? (rhetorical question).

Damn hope he's not recommending this BS to others.He seems to think smokeless is his salvation but down the road it may just upset his apple cart.

Swampy needs to go read the Shilo forum and some of the replies about shooting the 70 in longer chambers.. of course these guys are shooting way over priced rifles and don't know what they're talking about..

You're too smart to really believe that. You're just being a chit disturber.

Few thoudandths??

2.1 vs 2.4 inches. That is 3 tenths of an inch or 300 thousandths.

I wish Rick would ban him, this idiot is going to get someone either killed or severely hurt if he keeps up this sort of ridiculous advice.

Hey Swampie, one of the FIRST rules of safe shooting everyone should learn is ALWAYS USE THE CORRECT AMMUNITION IN YOUR FIREARM.

There are a very few exceptions to the rule but unless a firearm manufacturer states it's safe to do so you should NEVER use anything but the correct ammunition in any firearm.

I owned and used 45-70's for 20+ years and I don't believe a person really needs any more than that. However, I no longer own one and have used a 45-90 for close to 20 years. My preference is for the 45-90 for hunting. I don't know that it's any more effective in reality but I like it better. Mine has always been easy to load for. I also own a 45-100 but rarely use it. The one I own is in a Cody Rifle Works Ballard with a Badger barrel and it was a real bear to find a suitable load for. Even now the load I use is not as accurate as the 45-90 or my 40-70SS. My 40-70SS is my target rifle If it's your first rifle, get the 45-70 and learn from it.

Are the longer cases worth it? Well, I think at least the 45-90 is. Your velocity gains won't be all that great. If a person was hunting the largest North American game then I do believe the 45-100 would be worth the cost and effort to work up a really good load. The velocity gain still isn't significant, IMO, but it's enough to be worth the effort.

I've worked with a lot of BPCR cartridges and rifles over the years and if it were me I believe I would take the path a few others on this board have and try a 44-77 or a 44-90. They just look so cool and as ET and others have proven they can be made accurate and are certainly powerful.....and not every mothers son has one!!!

Comparative pic. L to R 44/90.45/110 and the good old 30/06


Tough to see but the case body of the 44/90 is larger than the big 45. .515 at the base next to the rim,tapering to .505 at the shoulder. The round was made before fireforming. The shoulder is actually more of a radius than an angle/

Reading in Seller's Sharps book , that the 44-77 with it's 420 gr bullet was reported as shooting thru 2 and more buffalo and killing them at 500 yds. That's a single round doing that, the 40-90 bn was also really popular.
I'm easily droppin 80 grs of 1.5 kik in the 77 case, and can get 85 grs. and still be able to compress it without bulging anything.....
I really think folks are missing the boat by following the old wives tales about how the bottlenecks won't shoot...

Thanks guys for the back on track..this can be a very interesting and informative thread without the occasional intrusion of "swamp knowledge"

More comparatives. L to R,45/110,45/90 and 45/70

Looks like I'll need some paper-patching lessons :-)

Jeez, E.T.! There you go again, leading someone else over to the paper-patched Dark Side!

Biebs, watch yourself, E.T. has a habit of indoctrination that will have you spending your grandkids' inheritance on those EVIL BPCR's!

Ed

Yes, I'm already planning on my 2nd and 3rd, and I haven't even got the first one yet? He is truly "evil".

This is like inner-city gang recruitment...do I join the "Greasers-Groovers" or the "Paper-Patchers" ? :-)

I'll 2nd, or 3rd, whichever is correct, Ranch13's comment on bottleneck cases. I've worked with 2, the 43 Mauser and the 577/450 Martini. I was able to achieve more than adequate accuracy with both. The 43 was in a double rifle with washy rifling and I was able to obtain 3-4 inches combined group at 50 yards. Individually they would print around 2 inches at 50. With the Martini I was able to obtain 3-4 inches at 100 yards. I was more than satisfied with both rifles given their age, bore condition and sights...and my eyes.

I use both, but admit the greasers are much easier to load and shoot.

Relax, both "Gangs" work for the same Cartel,.....E.T. being one of the "Dons" thereof.A high level of "esprit" and notable comeradarie seems to currently exist 'tween the greasers and the patchers.

You start running with the degenerate "Smokeless Muckers" you will be in Deep kimchee,and your intelligence will be called into question.

GTC

I've heard....Black is beautiful?? :-)

So without trying to open another can of worms, all else being equal, is paper patching the more accurate of patching vs. grease? Any special accomadations needed to paper patch?

I had a 50-90 Sharps and sold it. Have regretted it every day since. At some point I'm going to ease back into BP shooting.

There's not much difference in accuracy between the two. But unless you have a chamber cut to original deminsions with the shallow lead angle, finding the superdooper patched load is a bunch more time consuming than with a well made and cast greaser.
I'm going thru this now with the 44-77. I had brooks make me a 480gr .447 diameter bullet with the original postel nose, and he added a tapered driving band. That bullet with 77gr. 1.5 KIK will shoot moa at 300 yds all day long.
I can't quite get a patched bullet to do that yet, but that's the beauty of nose pour adjustable moulds. You can keep playing with the weight and length until you get what the rifle really likes.

Ranch you have been a wealth of information and advice, as I have read your posts for some time. Thank you for you kind and generous willingness to share. Let me say it is sincerely appreciated.

Thanks Richard,always glad to help if I can.

Yeah, but that 500 BPE double you have is pretty sweet.

An upside to a 70 is that it can always be auger out to a 90, 100, 110, or 120. A bit more extravagent to go the other way. I have a 70 and a 90 but no 100+'s. Myy understanding is that it takes a mans man to put 60 or 70 rds down range in a day when one is pushing 540+ grain slugs.

No. If you look at the equipment list of competitors in major BPCR matches, the majority shoot grease groove bullets. However, there is a hard core of paper patchers, and some do well. It is an ongoing friendly debate, and more are climbing on the paper patch bandwagon, me among them.

I shot the Arizona regional Creedmoor match last month (800-900-1000 yards) using a .45-70 and 535 gr. paper patched bullets. This was not a conventional hunting or all-purpose load, as I use a heavy charge and seat the bullet only about 1/10". It is loose in the case, can be pulled out with fingers. It is more like a .45-90 load in terms of powder charge and velocity.

I don't claim to be a man among men, but I put 50-60 of those 535 grainers downrange each day out of a 12.5 pound rifle without getting the snot kicked out of me. Everybody uses a pad or recoil shield of some sort, and it helps a lot if the stock fits well. You know you're not firing a pea shooter, however.

Paul

At some time in the VERY near future we need to get a thread running about a plethora of very good reasons that:

A.) A Chamber that will EXCEL with Greasers will deliver only mediocre PP accuracy

B.) The exact INVERSE is true, e.g. a chamber designed for a specific PP load will drive ya' NUTS ,....lookin' for the right GG loading.

I'm not sure that that particular subject should encompass or cover the fact that "Bore conditioning" or "Bore Finish" should be called out as regards the clear cut requirement for a different mechanical design approach. I'll go on record here, saying that right from the get go, trying to run BOTH out of the same barrel is a mistake.
, "Rougher" bore finishes will LOVE GGs,......but, a mirror smooth bore finish (that generated by PPS) will NOT toss GGS into small clusters,.....and there's a perfectly logical, and simple reason for that. There are some GREAT observations about the hows and whys of alla' this, almost lost in the dim recesses of history, and barely surviving , ....for one's perusal.

Doesn't that make you glad we didn't take up Golf ?

GTC

The standard shiloh chambers do a pretty good job with both types of bullets.
There are some rifles about with 20 twist barrels and chambers cut from reamers from original borchardts that shoot both type of bullets very well.
There are also some rifles that had their throats recut to shallower lead angels that shooot patched bullets lights out but lost the greasers.
In the end it comes down to working with whatcha got, and figuring out how to make that work.

I'm really enjoying reading all these threads.
I'd love to be able to get a bunch of you guys together for a long weekend and just sit and listen, maybe ask a few questions, I think it'd be worth more than fifty years of trial and error.

No, "in the end" refer to that highlighted in RED above.

Thanks for the verifying my thesis there, Don.

GTC

Thing is, it's not unheard of to have a rifle that will shoot both equally well. But it may take a bit more fooling around to get one or the other bullet to group tight, but it can happen.
Most folks tho just say screw it and shoot one or the other.

You just have to know what you're doing.

Fixed

Ya, up to the point where you've run enough paper through the barrel to SPOIL it's GG edge.

Maybe we should all shut up, and get "Carbines", running smokelesss ?

GTC

Like "Too Shiny"

Witness, here, my scholarly treatise on how to break firing pins in a '74 Sharps.


I, Swwwwwwwwwwwwampman1, or Swampman700, or WTF I am supposed to be,... (giddy two shoes with a stupid hat and a cannon ?) beyond any shadow of doubt going to spoken about (albeit with contempt) in BPCR circles for at LEAST the next 2 minutes

If you need any help with your Sharps issues let me know.

Actually, by Swampvagina's own admission of "don't take anything I post seriously" about covers this buffoon's recommendations on anything, except in the area of "How to dress like a dork with goofy hats and even dorkier clothes." the doofus is a total loser.

Hope my rifle has a chamber cut that's compatible for both types, I'm kinda spooked, my rifle shoots the Paul Jones 540 gn. Creedmoor grease groove bullet cast 20 to 1 very well.

Gunner

I'm willing to help you, but you will have to admit to yourself that you need it.

Hummmm...Just figured out how I'll convince the other half that I need another rifle..A guys gotta have one for greasers and a second for PP, yeah that's the ticket.. I'll just blame it on crossfire!

I think I need to say something here. I have one of the 45-70 Shilohs with a 20 twist barrel and the Borchardt chamber. It shoots absolutely lights out with either greasers or paper patch, and is not picky about which bullet you shoot, or what granulation you feed it. One of the best things about it is that it puts the first shot out of a clean barrel in the center of the group first time, every time.

I also have a Shiloh 45-70 with an absolutely stock and standard off the shelf chamber and an 18 twist barrel. It has just over 28,000 rounds on it, and shoots both paper patched bullets and greasers very well. The accuracy edge in this rifle has to go to the greasers and it is cranky on the first shot with greasers. The first three, actually, but it settles down on the fourth shot and will shoot the rest of them on top of each other all day long. It is a silhouette rifle primarily, as in silhouette, you get sighters, and this gives this rifle the opportunity to settle down before you go for score. Cranky first shot aside, I carried this rifle to South Africa for plains game last October and it gave a very good account of itself with the Lyman 457121 480 grain flatnose bullet and 66 grains of KIK 3f.

Now, here comes the kicker. I also have a Shiloh Number 3 Sporter in 45-70 with the standard 18 twist barrel and chamber, and I have recut the leade from the standard 45 degrees to 7 degrees. It shoots BOTH paper patch and greasers equally well, and shoots better now than it did with the standard chamber.

I have also throated my 45-110 Business Rifle, and it shoots both paper patch and greasers better than it did before throating.

I have targets with groups from each of these rifles shot both just before and just after throating. The targets all show a clear cut advantage to the throated chambers in each rifle.

Bottom line, according to what my rifles tell me, throating definitely improves accuracy in both paper patch and greasers. I don't know what the result would be if you tried to shoot jacketed bullets, but for sure and certain my cast bullet loads like the shallower leade. I'll never have the answer to that one, as none of my rifles has ever seen a jacketed bullet or smokeless powder, and never will.

Hey Jorge?

What were we supposed to learn from Swampy's U-Tube extravaganza?

How to open a Sharps action without going to half cock?

How to staple one's target at the bottom so the wind won't blow it?

And you think this may be Swampy's 100 yd. range where he shoots all those one hole groups?

Just curious...

DF

Bout time you chimed in . You know my rifle well Bill, should I leave it or have it re-throated?

Thanks Sharpsguy, Im gonna roll some paper tomorrow and begin load development Monday morning, weather permitting.

Gunner

Jorge--I would contact Kirk Bryan at Shiloh and ask him to re cut the leade. He has a reamer for that purpose. You might want to wait until after the 18th, as you need to talk to Kirk directly, as he is attending the NRA Convention and won't be back in Big Timber until then.

No need to go to half cock. The firing pin is spring loaded out of the way.

This was to show typical recoil with blackpowder level smokeless loads. The offhand group was excellent though.

Blah, blah, blah STFU