So without trying to open another can of worms, all else being equal, is paper patching the more accurate of patching vs. grease? Any special accomadations needed to paper patch?
I had a 50-90 Sharps and sold it. Have regretted it every day since. At some point I'm going to ease back into BP shooting.
Be Polite , Be Professional , but have a plan to kill everybody you meet -General James Mattis United States Marine Corps
There's not much difference in accuracy between the two. But unless you have a chamber cut to original deminsions with the shallow lead angle, finding the superdooper patched load is a bunch more time consuming than with a well made and cast greaser. I'm going thru this now with the 44-77. I had brooks make me a 480gr .447 diameter bullet with the original postel nose, and he added a tapered driving band. That bullet with 77gr. 1.5 KIK will shoot moa at 300 yds all day long. I can't quite get a patched bullet to do that yet, but that's the beauty of nose pour adjustable moulds. You can keep playing with the weight and length until you get what the rifle really likes.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
Ranch you have been a wealth of information and advice, as I have read your posts for some time. Thank you for you kind and generous willingness to share. Let me say it is sincerely appreciated.
Be Polite , Be Professional , but have a plan to kill everybody you meet -General James Mattis United States Marine Corps
I owned and used 45-70's for 20+ years and I don't believe a person really needs any more than that. However, I no longer own one and have used a 45-90 for close to 20 years. My preference is for the 45-90 for hunting. I don't know that it's any more effective in reality but I like it better. Mine has always been easy to load for. I also own a 45-100 but rarely use it. The one I own is in a Cody Rifle Works Ballard with a Badger barrel and it was a real bear to find a suitable load for. Even now the load I use is not as accurate as the 45-90 or my 40-70SS. My 40-70SS is my target rifle If it's your first rifle, get the 45-70 and learn from it.
Are the longer cases worth it? Well, I think at least the 45-90 is. Your velocity gains won't be all that great. If a person was hunting the largest North American game then I do believe the 45-100 would be worth the cost and effort to work up a really good load. The velocity gain still isn't significant, IMO, but it's enough to be worth the effort.
I've worked with a lot of BPCR cartridges and rifles over the years and if it were me I believe I would take the path a few others on this board have and try a 44-77 or a 44-90. They just look so cool and as ET and others have proven they can be made accurate and are certainly powerful.....and not every mothers son has one!!!
Yeah, but that 500 BPE double you have is pretty sweet.
An upside to a 70 is that it can always be auger out to a 90, 100, 110, or 120. A bit more extravagent to go the other way. I have a 70 and a 90 but no 100+'s. Myy understanding is that it takes a mans man to put 60 or 70 rds down range in a day when one is pushing 540+ grain slugs.
So without trying to open another can of worms, all else being equal, is paper patching the more accurate of patching vs. grease?
No. If you look at the equipment list of competitors in major BPCR matches, the majority shoot grease groove bullets. However, there is a hard core of paper patchers, and some do well. It is an ongoing friendly debate, and more are climbing on the paper patch bandwagon, me among them.
I shot the Arizona regional Creedmoor match last month (800-900-1000 yards) using a .45-70 and 535 gr. paper patched bullets. This was not a conventional hunting or all-purpose load, as I use a heavy charge and seat the bullet only about 1/10". It is loose in the case, can be pulled out with fingers. It is more like a .45-90 load in terms of powder charge and velocity.
I don't claim to be a man among men, but I put 50-60 of those 535 grainers downrange each day out of a 12.5 pound rifle without getting the snot kicked out of me. Everybody uses a pad or recoil shield of some sort, and it helps a lot if the stock fits well. You know you're not firing a pea shooter, however.
Paul
Last edited by Paul39; 04/14/12.
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
At some time in the VERY near future we need to get a thread running about a plethora of very good reasons that:
A.) A Chamber that will EXCEL with Greasers will deliver only mediocre PP accuracy
B.) The exact INVERSE is true, e.g. a chamber designed for a specific PP load will drive ya' NUTS ,....lookin' for the right GG loading.
I'm not sure that that particular subject should encompass or cover the fact that "Bore conditioning" or "Bore Finish" should be called out as regards the clear cut requirement for a different mechanical design approach. I'll go on record here, saying that right from the get go, trying to run BOTH out of the same barrel is a mistake. , "Rougher" bore finishes will LOVE GGs,......but, a mirror smooth bore finish (that generated by PPS) will NOT toss GGS into small clusters,.....and there's a perfectly logical, and simple reason for that. There are some GREAT observations about the hows and whys of alla' this, almost lost in the dim recesses of history, and barely surviving , ....for one's perusal.
Doesn't that make you glad we didn't take up Golf ?
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
The standard shiloh chambers do a pretty good job with both types of bullets. There are some rifles about with 20 twist barrels and chambers cut from reamers from original borchardts that shoot both type of bullets very well. There are also some rifles that had their throats recut to shallower lead angels that shooot patched bullets lights out but lost the greasers. In the end it comes down to working with whatcha got, and figuring out how to make that work.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
I'm really enjoying reading all these threads. I'd love to be able to get a bunch of you guys together for a long weekend and just sit and listen, maybe ask a few questions, I think it'd be worth more than fifty years of trial and error.
The standard shiloh chambers do a pretty good job with both types of bullets. There are some rifles about with 20 twist barrels and chambers cut from reamers from original borchardts that shoot both type of bullets very well. There are also some rifles that had their throats recut to shallower lead angels that shooot patched bullets lights out but lost the greasers. In the end it comes down to working with whatcha got, and figuring out how to make that work.
No, "in the end" refer to that highlighted in RED above.
Thanks for the verifying my thesis there, Don.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Thing is, it's not unheard of to have a rifle that will shoot both equally well. But it may take a bit more fooling around to get one or the other bullet to group tight, but it can happen. Most folks tho just say screw it and shoot one or the other.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
Thing is, it's not unheard of to have a rifle that will shoot both equally well. But it may take a bit more fooling around to get one or the other bullet to group tight, but it can happen. Most folks tho just say screw it and shoot one or the other.
Ya, up to the point where you've run enough paper through the barrel to SPOIL it's GG edge.
Maybe we should all shut up, and get "Carbines", running smokelesss ?
GTC
Like "Too Shiny"
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Witness, here, my scholarly treatise on how to break firing pins in a '74 Sharps.
I, Swwwwwwwwwwwwampman1, or Swampman700, or WTF I am supposed to be,... (giddy two shoes with a stupid hat and a cannon ?) beyond any shadow of doubt going to spoken about (albeit with contempt) in BPCR circles for at LEAST the next 2 minutes
Last edited by crossfireoops; 04/14/12.
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Actually, by Swampvagina's own admission of "don't take anything I post seriously" about covers this buffoon's recommendations on anything, except in the area of "How to dress like a dork with goofy hats and even dorkier clothes." the doofus is a total loser.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
You can keep playing with the weight and length until you get what the rifle really likes.
![[Linked Image]](http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/bigcupofshutthefuckup.jpg)
