Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Gettysburgh revisited

Was just watching The History Channel's "Battlefield Detectives" show.

One of the things that caught my attention was the mention of a C shaped mill pond, 4 to 5 foot deep, surrounding the base of Culps Hill. The historians spoke of this as a major obsticle to Confederates attacking the hill, or attempting to flank the position.

Having read many books about the Civil War in general, and Gettysburgh in particular, this is the first ever mention I've heard of regarding this mill pond. Surely, if this was the case, Rebel officers would have recorded such an obsticle, but even my copy of "Battles & Leaders" has no referance to any such pond. Only Rock Creek is written about anywhere, and, having visited many times, I can't believe it was much of an obsticle, especialy in July.

Knowing there are several other ametuer historians on here, I thought I'd pose the question here. How 'bout it? Anyone have anything to add?
7mm

I never came across that before and I didn't watch the show you refer to, but that could explain why the Confederates didn't effectively attack the Union right flank of the fish hook. This map allows for the possibility of something like a pond or swamp at the S.E. side of Culp's Hill, between the hillside and the road. I think there is a creek in the same area. It would be interesting to see this in the form of a topo:

I always thought that the CSA forces to the north and northeast of the USA forces at Gettysburg didn't fight well because General Ewell was indecisive and his subordinate commanders were not as good as those of Hill and Longstreet.

Whatever the reason, I think that Lee would likely have won at Gettysburg if not for the courage of Buford to hold the CSA forces away from the high ground on the Cemetery Hil ridgeline early on 07/01/1863. If Lee had held the defensive high ground, the USA forces would have found themselves in another Fredericksburg type position. It appears that Lee didn't use his best judgement and back away from the USA forces when they held the better position with more men and materials of war. However, Lee was without Jackson for the 1st time and he (Jackson) had always been Lee's most aggresive combat commander. You also wonder what would have happened if Reynolds, rather than Mead, had been the senior commander. Would Reynolds have pursued Lee's forces and tried to destroy them immediately after Gettysburg?

Jeff

My understanding has always been that Culp's Hill was there for the taking by the Confederates on Day 1 of the battle there, but GEN Dick Ewell, who could not decide to piss if his pants were on fire, just did not go get it. My understanding is also that his subordinate, GEN Jubal Early, wanted to take Culp's Hill, but Ewell never gave him the green light. This pond is an interesting development.

I never read anything where Ewell based his refusal to attempt Culp's Hill on a water hazard. I'll dig around a little tonight in my Freeman, but this is a new one on me.

A pond at Culps hill is a new one on me too.

BCR

Maybe Ewell was afraid to get his wooden leg wet!

Jeff

The more I've read, the more convinced I've become that Lee wasn't gonna win at Gettysburgh, at least not the decisive victory he was seeking.

Had he succeeded in taking Culps & Cemetary hills on 1 July, Mead would likely have dug in on Pipe Creek, as was his original plan. Remember, at that point of time, only three union corps had been engaged. Of those, only the I corps was busted up. III and XI corps (though scattered) were still in pretty decent shape, and over half the army wasn't on the field yet.

The flanking movement supported by Longstreet may have worked on 2 July, but without Stuart, Lee had no sure idea of what he was facing and where the Yanks were. By then, it was fight or get outta Dodge. With no supply lines, his army could not feed itself when concentrated.




I've always thought the Union High Command missed a heck of a chance to end the war here. Gen Darious Couch commanded a strong reserve around DC, and had these troops and the Harpers Ferry garrison been used to cut off Lee's retreat, The AOP would have had ample time to catch up and force a finish fight.

As to the mill pond, I would think that surely had it been there at the time, history would have noted it.
7mm

Of course we will never know but I differ with you. If Lee could have broken the lines on either end I believe the AOP would have collapsed. I doubt Mead or anyone else could have stopped them short of the defenses of Washington. Especially with Stuart back as he was to harrass the retreating troops. The ANV could have lived off the Federal supply trains which would have had to be abandoned on any forced retreat.

If Vicksburg had held out and Joe Johnson had gathered enough troops to really menace Grant's rear from Jackson??

General dissatisfaction in the north due to the draft.

I believe the Union would have sued for peace which is all the south ever wanted. I don't think Lincoln could have held out against all the pressure.

BCR

The problem with all these suppositions is that even from our historical monday morning quarterback position,it is difficult to understand how their perceived time pressures affected their decisions.
Would anyone in charge really have made a concerted effort to persue and destroy the ANV.Reportedly almost 30% of the victorious Union troops were almost immediately drawn off to deal with the draft riots in Philadelphia,New York,and Boston.
That's a heck of a logistical whack when trying to plan a "pivotal" campaign of persue and destroy.

Saw a show on the History Channel last day or so, that said there was a pond at Culp's hill that forced the CSA forces into a frontal attack only.

Maybe, but Mead needed to expel Lee from PA and MD, so he had to react to Lee. Lee didn't need to attack Mead, unless his road back to VA was blocked, so he held the initiative of determining the place of battle. If Lee had left Gettysburg and continued north, Mead would have been forced to follow him and Lee could have picked a battle site where the terrain gave him an advantage.

It seems to me that Lee over-estimated the combat power and leadership of his own forces, while under-estimated the leadership of the AOP at Gettysburg. Lee's record up to Gettysburg was nearly perfect, but that was when his #1 combat commander was the ever-aggressive TJ Jackson. With Jackson dead, from wounds suffered at Chancellorsville, and with Grant co-locating his HQ with Mead's HQ, Lee never again had the resources in men and material to win a major battle. Grant never let Lee out of his sights and just wore down the ANV with his advantage in men and material. Grant didn't mind taking casualties, as seen by the carnage suffered by the AOP at Wilderness, Spotsylvania Court House, and Cold Harbor, as long as the goal of destroying the ANV was being achieved. Slow and bloody progress though it was.

Edit: I didn't mean to infer the Grant was at Gettysburg, but that as soon as Grant took command after Gettysburg, he co-located his HQ with Mead's so that he was the defacto commander of the AOP.

Jeff

If Ewell had a composite leg, he wouldn't have to worry about it getting wet and changing point of impact. Someone send him a link to McMillan's!

That is a lot of ifs, Boggy. The "political pressure" angle for the North is the only way this conflict could have come out in favor of the CSA. As far as resources, the North was fighting this war with one hand behind their back and in the strategic war beyond the Shenandoah Valley, the North held all the coast, and New Orleans and their forces were having a lot of success in the "western" theater of the war. After Vicksburg fell all of the Mississippi was in the North's hands and the outcome simply a matter of time. The appointment of Grant as the Commander of all Northern Forces was the coup de grace for the Confederate Forces. So, maybe the North might have sued for peace after a defeat at Gettysburg. We will never know. The North however was not in danger of losing the strategic war to the CSA because of a loss at Gettysburg.