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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 10,955 Likes: 6 |
I spent the weekend playing with my favorite 243. Last year i could pretty reliably count on 1" or under groups with hand loads, but this year it's just giving me fits. I've probably run through 100 plus rounds over the last 3 days and no matter what I try I can't get it back to a happy place. The best I could do was about 2+" with a flier or 2.
I switched scopes, made sure the scope bases were tight, reset the action screws a couple times, set the trigger a tad heavier, cleaned it 3 times through the process including the Butches copper remover. Now before someone says it's me, I thought of that too so I took a different 243, a 7mm, and my AR and shot sub 1" groups with all of them this weekend, so I doubt it's just that. I never have claimed to be a good shooter but I know what I'm capable of and it's better than what this rifle is giving me.
I bought this gun used, and I've probably put 400 through it in the 3 years I've owned it including the marathon this weekend. I have no idea how many it shot prior to that. What I do know is that I measured the max OAL for the chamber last year and using 70NBTs, I couldn't set the bullet out far enough in the case to touch the lands. That makes me think the barrel may be getting close to toast.
Last year it's pet load (and the one I shot the most this weekend) was 39.2 I3031 under a NBT 70 with a win primer, though I did try a couple other loads that it shot pretty well in the past and they were also sub par. The barrel is free floated and the action is bedded. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,253 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,253 Likes: 2 |
Substantially longer COL's tells me the throat is gone on a rifle i've had and shot for a long time.
Gunner
Trump Won!
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
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A barrel is shot out when it no longer groups to my satisfaction, irrespective of the number of rounds through it. Some barrels are shot out when they are brand new. 
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,971 Likes: 1 |
If it shifts grouping bigger, and you make sure it's not fouled up.
Once cleaned well with no fouling Nnd the groups are still big = the barrels on its way out.
Plus round count should be considered - depending on how much powder you have in the cartridge. 223 ~ 6000 rounds before it starts shooting screwy, more powder = less rounds to burn the bore, I here the 220 swift burns as low as 2000 rounds.
Spot
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,970 |
one way i like to check bedding is to hold finger at junction of barrel and forend and loosen front action screw, you should feel no movement. sometimes you have to remove the magizine spring to do this as it will sometimes give the barrel a little push up.
Ed
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 973
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 973 |
I spent the weekend playing with my favorite 243. Last year i could pretty reliably count on 1" or under groups with hand loads, but this year it's just giving me fits. I've probably run through 100 plus rounds over the last 3 days and no matter what I try I can't get it back to a happy place. The best I could do was about 2+" with a flier or 2.
I switched scopes, made sure the scope bases were tight, reset the action screws a couple times, set the trigger a tad heavier, cleaned it 3 times through the process including the Butches copper remover. Now before someone says it's me, I thought of that too so I took a different 243, a 7mm, and my AR and shot sub 1" groups with all of them this weekend, so I doubt it's just that. I never have claimed to be a good shooter but I know what I'm capable of and it's better than what this rifle is giving me.
I bought this gun used, and I've probably put 400 through it in the 3 years I've owned it including the marathon this weekend. I have no idea how many it shot prior to that. What I do know is that I measured the max OAL for the chamber last year and using 70NBTs, I couldn't set the bullet out far enough in the case to touch the lands. That makes me think the barrel may be getting close to toast.
Last year it's pet load (and the one I shot the most this weekend) was 39.2 I3031 under a NBT 70 with a win primer, though I did try a couple other loads that it shot pretty well in the past and they were also sub par. The barrel is free floated and the action is bedded. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Set the trigger a tad heavier, huh? You mean lighter, dont you, heavier aint gonna do it my friend, lighter, lighter!! haha. As you look down the barrel how do the lands look, pretty pronounced yet or on the flat side? What brand rifle is it out of curiosity? Model etc? 70MKs shoot very well off the lands in my 6mmRem. 700, kinda like this @200yds. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k513/JGorski80/2011-05-11-09013.jpg)
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 649
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 649 |
As the throat wears, the lands essentially recede from the chamber. The more jump-sensitive you bullet is, the sooner this will begin to adversely effect accuracy. For a while, you can compensate by increasing OAL, which also might require you to adjust charge weight. But don't forget, as a rule of thumb, the minimum shank seating depth should never be less than the diameter of the bullet.
But regardless of the bullet, eventually the lands will be worn down so far up the barrel that you can't produce the accuracy you want or need. When that happens, when you no longer can coax enough accuracy from it to suit your purposes, your barrel is shot out.
If you weren't aware, in a lot of cases, a good gunsmith can saw off the breech end of a shot-out barrel and ream a new chamber. This might leave the barrel a touch shorter but it also restores the throat to its original dimensions.
Alle Fähigkeit ist vergeblich, wenn ein Engel in Ihrem Notenloch uriniert
-- old German proverb
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,431
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,431 |
If you can't find the throat (kiss the lands) with sufficient neck grab and/or magazine fit, you are shot out.
Either set it back and rechamber as XL suggests, or time for a new pipe.
I have one barrel in my "junk" pile that shot a .417 for its ceremonial last group. It will be recycled to something else soon enough.
I also have two other set-backs that shoot as good, or better, as new, I don't know how long either will last compared to a brand-new tube, but I am delighted with the outcomes so far.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,794
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,794 |
You can't put a mark on the calendar and say okay my barrel is shot. The groups will gradually grow and you'll get the ocassional unexplained flyer. Resetting you COL will someimes bring them back for a while.
Aim for the exit hole.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I have only shot one tube out. It was a 25-06.
It went from consistent 1/2" to 3/4" to over 1" over the years. That was after I started seating bullets way out there.
Travis
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,202
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,202 |
I had a used 22-250 Rem. I put 3,000 rounds through it. One day I could not get under 1", then 1 1/4". I traded it. Next thought. Can ya take it to a gun smith and have the barrel turned in 1" or so?
But the fruits of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,faithfulness, Gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. Galations 5: 22&23
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,285
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,285 |
Known accurate loads go all to hell in a hand basket.
Alan
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 10,955 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2009
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Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I was pretty sure it is shot out, but I'm going to invest another box of bullets and see if I can find a different load that will work for whatever reason while I keep an eye out for a replacement barrel. For those that asked it's a Savage 16 in SS. I'll come across a take off sooner or later on on the savage board and from what I hear, swapping them out isn't a huge deal. I'd consider a higher end barrel, but I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I can't shoot well enough to justify the added expense.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200 |
If you know a gunsmith that has a borescope one peek will tell you what you need to know.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,458 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2007
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I've shot out 3 barrels, a .17 Rem, a .204, and a .22-250.
In each case it was a gradual process. Stuff would start to get strange. I'd be out shootin' varmints, everything just going along fine, then all of the sudden I couldn't hit squat. I'd stop by the range on the way home to shoot paper and find that the bullets that landed point first had gray "wings" by the bullet holes and a lot of bullets were tumbling when they hit.
A really good cleaning would temporarily bring the gun back, but the interval between really good cleanings decayed pretty quickly 'til it wasn't worth fighting any longer. Going to a bullet with a heavier jacket can also buy some more barrel life.
I haven't shot out a barrel with any of the lower velocity cartridges so I'm not sure if they do the same thing or not, but with a high velocity (4000 fps range) cartridge, I shoot paper and look for wings by the bullet holes. If I find that, jackets are starting to fail which usually is a result of a throat that's about done.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Here be dragons ...
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,499
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
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Only shot out one barrel, a 30-06. Owned it for 13 years, shot it alot. Went from a 3/4" shooter, to gradually shooting patterns. Tried a different scope, bedded it, nada. Measured the distance to the lands and it had grown alot. Had a new tube put on it and it is back to shooting great.
There is no way to coexist no matter how many bumper stickers there are on Subaru bumpers!
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 973
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 973 |
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I was pretty sure it is shot out, but I'm going to invest another box of bullets and see if I can find a different load that will work for whatever reason while I keep an eye out for a replacement barrel. For those that asked it's a Savage 16 in SS. I'll come across a take off sooner or later on on the savage board and from what I hear, swapping them out isn't a huge deal. I'd consider a higher end barrel, but I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I can't shoot well enough to justify the added expense. Call just about any reputable custom shop, they might have a take-off barrel for you.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 22
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 22 |
You cleaned 3 times, but it's possible that you might have some hard carbon buildup in there that's surprisingly very resistant to a lot of the really good solvents and brushes. Before spending any $ on a barrel job, get a good dedicated carbon solvent like Carb-Out (same guys that make Wipe-out). Put some in the bore to soak for a few hours then brush or patch it out. You might be surprised at what comes out of the barrel that's been cleaned right before using it. Stuff works great, but I'd try pretty hard not to get any on your skin - it can't be good for you.
Shoots better - Done.
Shoots just as bad or worse, then the bbl is probably pretty fire-cracked around the throat, and you've just cleaned all the hard carbon out of the cracks, effectively making the surface rougher.
This would be a pretty good indication that it's time to see the gunsmith.
Best advice is to find somebody that has a borescope. The .243 has somewhat of a reputation as being hard on throats, and if you have no idea about how many rounds the previous owner had through the gun, there's a decent chance that the barrel might be due for re-chamber or replacement.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 79
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 79 |
Have you done what Ed said to do??
Is your barrel bedded or is it a frew float? If it is a free float, take a dollar big and sea saw it from forend back to the chamber, if you can't get there, that is what I would look at first!! I am not a gun smith and never will be one, I have been shooting H.P. Rifles since the late 60's and, the 243, 30-06, 308 have never been on the list as being easy to burn out, if you have cleaned it good on a regural bases and have not run Super hot reloads, I find it hard to believe that it is shot out.
Like I stated, I am a nobody, and I was only giving you my 2 cents.
Good Luck
Greg
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
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Ace, the barrel is plenty FF. I can run 5 sheets of paper freely between stock and barrel all the way the the nut. I am going to get to a local smith here soon. I talked to him the other day about doing the swap out and I think I'll have him look at it first. All I know is I took 5 rifles out back the other day. 4 shot under an inch with pet loads. This one just won't do it no matter what I've tried.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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