Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Anyone care to talk about PRIMERS?

What primers do you use in the various BPCR cartridges, and what conclusions have you arrived at? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

For what it is worth, (the same as what you pay for it) I think that the primers are similiar to the different powders. Some work in combination with certain powders but not as well with others. If I useCCI BR2 with goex cartridge my groups do not change, using CCI BR2 with fg, my groups shrink slightly.
If I use WLRM, I get consistant results with nearly every load I have worked up.
The best results I have obtained, come with Goex ffg and Federal 215.
Your results may and probably will be different, but then you are using a different rifle in different weather conditions.
Jim

Primers can be crticial to a good load. But primer expermenting "Is for me" best done in the fine tuning of a load. When I started my load devolpement with Swiss 2 fg powder I had on hand most of the primers available today. In the devolpement of this load I used them all at one time or another Federal, Remington, Winchester, CCI and even a primer I bought in Eastern Europe that is not available to us Extremus that was supposed to be the coolest burning of all primers. With the Swiss 2 fg hands down the best primer for me was always Large Pistol primers the best of those being Winchester Large Pistol Primers. I use them and them alone and have for years. But primers will need to be tried in each and every load and each and every rifle. Somewhere in that testing one of those will show to be heads and shoulders above the rest.

Gunny

I have always been partial to Federal 210M's. Venture into WLR and Remington LR (7 1/2?) and seem to come back to the 210M's. What you two have written makes sense to me...

'Have read quire a bit about the pros and cons of the LP primers and there seems to be a concern about the shorter cup getting a wind-up at the breech and (with continual use) damaging the breech in the area around the firing pin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Any validation to this anti-LR primer thought?

HO,

I also have heard many folks talk about breech block damage with Large Pistol Primers. As far as I can tell it is just that talk and theory. Here is what my findings are. My Meacham highwall match rifle in 45-70 has over 35,000 rounds fired with LP primers, I remove the breech block reguliarly and have found absolutly no damge what so ever. My scope class rifle is a C.Sharps Highwall in 40-65, it has some where around 5,000 rounds fired with Pistol primers also no damage when inspected. I also have a just built Meacham Highwall in 40-65 I have only fired this rifle around 1,000 shots and it also shows no damage. I think this damge with pistol primers is a myth at least my experiance shows that to be the case. The difference between Large Rifle and Large Pistol primers is in the depth of the cup and also pistol primers are much softer on the cup face. The difference in cup depth is .007 to .008 depending on brand of primers. Is this enough of a difference to cause a problem? As I stated in my rifles i see no problem, but I will leave this one up to the "Cranks" to play with.

Gunny

................give you a little heads up..........check with some riflesmiths that have had to deal with caved in firing pin recesses...............and severe deformation......on BB faces.

Wanna go to the wall, I've got photos, and can put them up.....BTW..............these were taken at an Aerospace Defence Lab.................

GTC

With all due deferance, and respect, to those who can "afford the very best"............let me post these as an advisory ..........................damage to a pretty fair kinda Breech Block,.....................OH NO!...........it wasn't expensive enough to with stand the force......

Okay, now that we all know that Gunny can afford the very best..........................and with all Kudos to Meacham, and the quality of his product...............no less than stellar.......

The rest of yuz, .........runnin' plain vanilla grade guns, take heed....................and check out this photo........I'll dig around, and find some more.

As far as this barrel bit............Badger, versus the cheap Krap............Gunny, yer' as full of $hit as a Christmas goose.

You were baeaten quite handsomely by a Badger barrel, in mid range Creedmoor, at Raton............and so was Dan T.

I built the rifle that did that................and it was an off the rack 1 in 15".............BADGER BARREL.

Shooting a Gazillion rounds a year, and buying $$$$$ rifles, does not impress the mechanics that build them.

.................as previously stated..........I'll keep my eyes on the Gold medals, and the scores.......thank you very much.

GTC

Hard hats will be mandatory, at the next meeting.........wrap the tinfoil, or aluminum foil of your choice around em' .........as the spirit moves ya'.

GTC

Well there Mr. GTC,

Pretty strong language for a dump ass from behind a puter board. And where did that come from? Now Mr I know it all Black Powder Mechanic I never said that Badger barrels arn't able to out shoot "ME". Hell dump ass I said I shoot a Badger Barrel, get your root out of your ass and pay a little attention for a change. What I did say is that Badger Barrels are wayyyyy over rated for what they are, and they damn sure are as far as I am concerned. Or are you telling me that I don't have an opinion? Hows that working for you?

As to your feeble point about me being out shot at Raton in the Creedmoor "Quite Handsomely" you say. As a matter of fact here is your direct qoute " You were baeaten quite handsomely by a Badger barrel, in mid range Creedmoor, at Raton............and so was Dan T.

I built the rifle that did that................and it was an off the rack 1 in 15".............BADGER BARREL."Well that would have been a pretty damn good trick There Mr. Know It All GTC as for one-- I have never shot a Creedmoor match in my life, not at Raton or anywhere else. And two I have not been to Raton in the past two years at all. So smart ass who's the one really as full of $hit as a Christmas Goose? That would be you I suppose!!

As to you picture book with the dented breech block. What in the hell do you think that proves there country boy? I've got three breech blocks i can take pictures of with no damage, so what? I said in my experiance Pistol Primers pose no danger to "MY" breech blocks. You see there Mr. Mechanic you didn't build my rifles, they ( My Rifles ) where built by a real gunsmith. Not some yahoo like yourself working off of instructions printed on the backside of a Bazooka Gum Wrapper. He actually knew what he was doing, and from the looks of that breech block in your little picture you need to go back to school there boy!!

Gunny

You know there gtc after re-reading your posts i have a little more to say it would seem.

You seem to be one either jealous as hell or pretensious as hell. Yea I shoot a Meacham as a matter of fact i own four Meachams. Is that something i need to apologize for? Hows about how many bullets I shoot a year, is there some universe somewhere there GTC that is any of your business any way or anyhow? Does the fact that I think good or bad of Badger Barrels or any other piece of equipment , make it so? Because I have different opinion from your's does that some way in the world you live in make me bad? Like I really give a flying fart one way or the other.

I go to great pains in almost every post I make to explan that this is "My Opinion" and these opinions are drawn from "My Own Experiance's" from "My Observations" I don't draw what I have to say out of thin air, they are experiances actually events that really did happen "For Me". I am also objective enough to listen to those who have had different "Observations". To try these things again and to see if maybe they are right and I am wrong, that sure happens often enough, but I am ready and willing to learn a new trick any place and any time. I also don't look at what type of rifle someone shoots and make any kind of judgement on who they are becuase of what they shoot. Shame there GTC you have proven right here on this page that you don't do the same.

Gunny

Wow, don't take much to get these guys wrapped around the axle, does it?

This current " let's beat up on Ernie Stallman" trend is a PITA.................considering the contribution that the Badger folks have made to this great game. In a time when a unified, and coherant approach should drive shooting sport foward, some choose to snivel, and whine, from their devisive respective camps...............this is bad for the game. in an overall sense. ..............

Fact is ..................a Green mountain barrel wouldn't make a pimple on a Badger's ass....................I've got no particular axe to grind here, ................anyone keeping track of the current metals market, and the wildly escalating costs (TOOLING!) entailed in running a machine shop should be able to do the math, and get some sort of vague notion as to why the Badgers, Kriegers, Harts, Shilos, Getz, and the rest of the good ones cost what they do......... And you are not going to see prices come down to where they were a few years ago, ever again.

Sorry about the oops on the Mid range position Creedmoor...
Guy I had in mind placed 10th, with a 522.07.......thought you were he. Apologies for my sin of assumption.

Opinions are certainly the order of the day,in and on this this venue....once you get to drop a few very expensive metrology devices through several hundreds of barrels, and view them on a squared away 38X digital bore scope.......... (we photograph, and video tape them as well).................

Well, let's just say that one becomes more inclined to deal in FACT.............

It really is not about equipment envy,...............my somewhat impatient attitude stems from the Bizarre aspect of the proposal that a premium match grade barrel should be available at Wal-Mart pricing, that's all............And that from one who obviously has an eye for quality...................as the Meacham is beyond any shadow of doubt one of the finest renditions of the great high wall design...by anybody, anywhere, anywhen.

GTC

Can't you just speculate like many others??
LOL
When I first started on the forums it took me awhile to figure out many of the expurts are just wannabes

Morning Gents,

Primers, I shoot Goex so that will sorta quantify this. This year at Raton I shot Fg in both my silhouette rifle and my Creedmoor rifle, I did not light up the silhouette boards but did on day 2 get 14/15 rams with a very hot load of Express Goex Fg that gave 1180 fps in my 45-70. Primers for both guns are Winchester old White box WLR's. They give really good numbers off the chrono and when I do my part, shoot well also. These days I am lucky to get to one silhouette match a year before Raton so Silhouette is not really my bag but I love to shoot it and enjoy spotting for it.

My next favorate primer for Goex BP is the Fed 210. I had got away from primer wads as I am getting ES's in the range of 9 to 14 fps in my 45-110 and SD's in the range of 3-4 fps. I think I will revist primer wads after reading Gunny's posts and talking to Jimbo and a few other shooters I respect. And trust me I do respect Gunny's Opinons. I also like Gunny a great deal and know the amount of time he puts into shooting, A few other shooters I dont always agree with, but put in way more range time then I do, I do listen to them due to the amount of time they do put in and the scores they shoot. To ignore their experiance is stupid and very narrow minded.

Gunny is one of the few people I can call tonight and say I needed help, he and jimbo would be here tommrow night. That means alot.

Now the Breach block thing, I have one here that I keep, its a Shiloh block, one of the first Pack Hardened ones, after about 5000 rounds it got to look even worse then the picture Greg posted. Caused me to think I needed a new barrel after 18,000 rounds in my 45-110. I was wrong, Kirk did rebarrel the rifle and when going to put the block back in the rifle noticed the problem the firing pin would hang up in the block now and then. It was causing vertial and real bad horz dispersion at 1000 yards.

Now Shiloh did all this at NO Cost to me, Rifle is my very first shiloh that I took delivery of in Sept of 1994, my 45-110 Sharps. That rifle has over the years made a name for its self I was lucky enough to steer it on the occasions it did. This year with a New barrel and new breach block, It won the 1000 yard leg of the nationals in Scope, Won Day two and the agg for the two days, a week later it won the scope class in the 1000 yard match at Alliance Neb that sagebrush puts on. and finished 9th overall out of 82 shooters.This was with a stock Shiloh barrel, WLR primers and yea Gads! GOEX! FG black powder.

The old english shooters commented at near the end of the Creedmoor era that the American Shooters were using larger charges of Fg powder and it was slower burning, and beating the English. Weights listed were in the 108 to 112 grains area. this was in 1879-80 seasons. These days I am kinda leaning that same way or leading that way?

I dont crank as much as many, dont have the time for it, wish I did, I work up loads and shoot the little I can get away to do so.

ALL I can say is this PROFIT from the Cranks, and the shooters that Get lots of rounds down range. Learn what lubes work and dont, and all the rest that goes along with.

One guy sent me a email awhile back says he can see no difference in annealing his 45-100 cases in the results. He shoots gongs for the most part, big ones 10 foot long buffalos 7-8 feet tall at long ranges or at 800 8 feet long and 6 feet high. He is very happy to hit the rump the hump a foot and a nose on occasions. IT works for him, what would be a 5/8 at the quigley would be 8 misses at 800 yards in Creedmoor.

Anyways you got my opinion and a few facts too.

Have a good day am off to the gun show.

Kenny Wasserburger

Greg, was that block damaged by only shooting Pistol primers, or was it just a time-wear thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That was an old " Varmint Rig", rescued from a bleak period as a super HV whamandslammer....of the hot .224 bore variety, smokeless, of course. Some bygone Smith had done a credible, and workmanlike " Niedner" breechblock insert, and it was in great shape, so was left as was, in a rather plain vanilla , and ecomomy conversion to ( what else) a Badger, in my evil .38-50 chambering. That 1 in 15 twist version, that is the source of so much angst.....particularly in those shooting faster twist barrels........

The damage to that breechface insert, as viewed, was aggragated with 4-500 rounds of HOT 3fg loads, and the same loading strategy / technique has borne the same malevolent fruit, in more than several Breechblocks it has been my duty to examine.........all with the hot 3fg stuff.It's hard to figure that something as soft as a primer cup could damage a properly hardened Block / pin bore, but man, we're seein' lots of it.

This may seem kinda rudimental, but I think it may be about gas damage, as pierced primers were not uncommon, either, in these rigs....I don't mean catastrophically blown out centers, ...........way more discrete pinholing.......and in some cases, undetected by the owner operators, until I grabbed on to some fired cases, at local shoots. You needed a magnifyer to see it, but they were piercing....Perhaps some gas is getting round the cups oter periphery, .......Dunno.

Finished up the last of that inletting and bedding, on the current crop this AM...........and will be lighting off the lathe this coming week. Did those pics come across OK , Joe?

Apologies to all for blowing my stack, and any offensive language on my part..............no excuses.

GTC

GREAT information! Albeit... "Spirited" ('spirited' can be good!)

I can see some super insight contributed on this PRIMER subject from ALL of you, "THANKS" for getting on board and sharing

(IMO; ['spirited'] discussions keep interest. I (REALLY DO) have an ['award'] in my possession which I am 'lurking', and waiting for the opportunity to post/award it; but it is hard to delineate between 'spirited' and 'over the edge'! 'Rekon I will have to just [sit-on-it awhile] ) [img]http://www.improvingsex.com/smileys/turningsmiley.gif[/img]

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS[img]http://www.improvingsex.com/smileys/kiss.gif[/img] Regards...

Got the pix... "GOD bless epoxy!" (my kind of stockbedding) 'Otta be tough as a tank <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Joe, the wood to metal is scraped/ spotted in per the classics, and what your seeing, is multitudinous coats of thinned acraglas clear liquid............sealin' 'em up. That thinner that Brownell's sells for it is Ok, but I wouldn't dare use it indoors, even with a respirator ...................man that is some vile stuff.................sure is nice for sealing, and "toughening up" the corners, on the rough blanks.

The pillar bed job on the Stevens,........well ,that's about conversion to 12-28 machine screw retention, as opposed to that wood screw set up. Perfectly adequate for the .25-20, and other light numbers, but I thought a likely Achilles heel in waiting, for the intended .45 cal.............did both pillars in one simultaneous pour, through the set trigger slot,.....messy, but worked like a charm. The tenon was cast against a dam,in one pour, too. 'course, than 'ya gotta mill that big old slot

Gotta love the way a sidehammer Sharps locks itself together, with all those screws runnin' every whichaway.....That's STOUT, from the get go.

GTC

C-F,

I have to say this this before I get into the gist of my post, your posts are a pain in the "ASS" to read with all those periods and grammer ma-trick-u-lations you use, and if I'm not interested enough, I'll skip what you've posted as I don't like having to reread to try and understand what the point is that's being tried to get across. With that being said, you're an informed guy with a good wit and try to keep us minions informed.

I have this to say, and couple questions thrown in, about some of your comments.

I will never buy another Badger barrel again, #1-A badger isn't all that hot, #-2 You may or may not get a barrel as promised, hell, sometimes Badger won't even return a simple phone call, would that be customer service? And if you happen to get a Badger barrel you'd better check to make sure it's what was ordered, example, I know of a 38 Cal. in 12 twist that was ordered and when it finally arrived it was 14 1/2 twist and the barrel was marked 1-12, you know how simple it is to check a barrels twist rate. How about this one, a 44 cal barrel that was bought as a special in Raton one year, that barrel was big at both ends, meaning the chamber end was big-small in the middle and big at the muzzle, kind of like a venturi in a carburetor. Maybe that's minor issues to some. So how about this, seems as if it's gotten around that Ernie Stallman and Badger barrels was the originator of barrel brake-in with the, "shoot one, clean, with a jacketed copper bullet" not so, thats been around way before Stallman put it out. Now answer this, why would a barrel need braking in? if it's bored, cut or buttoned and lapped properly? The old time Schutzen shooters would never shoot a jacketed bullet in a barrel made for lead bullets. That copper would ruin a barrel as far as they were concerned. What those old timers didn't have was all the different choices of cleaners for getting the lead out, as we have now. With that being said, I will not shoot a copper jacketed bullet in any of my B.P. rifles or even do that so called brake in method, to me it's just not needed/waste of time. Enough about Badger, even though I have more ammo to shoot.

Shooting L.P.primers. I shoot a 3F load in a 45-70 45-90 and a few others calibers with L.P.primers with no resulting damages to any of my rifles breach blocks,Meacham and originals, so I think shooting L.P. primers will damage breach blocks is primarly a myth. All the guys I shoot with shoot L.P. primers, so that would mean hundreds of thousands of rounds down range with no one I know mentioning of damaged breach blocks. Now I know shooting L.P. primers couldn't maybe cause some sort of damage, except I think the culprit is something else, as in a soft breach block, head spacing and so on. C.F. you mentioned a properly hardened breach block, so who is determining the hardness and how? That breach block you pictured was damaged by high pressure smokeless load you said, or did I get that wrong? Another question, how are you testing the pressure of a L.P.primered 3F B.P. load? Because if you haven't done any pressure testing of any B.P. load, why spout off/ speculate on pressures issues when you just don't have the proper information, only specultion? So who's we in the, "We're seeing lots of it?" And why hasn't that information gotten out? other then here.

As far one shooter besting another shooter in a contest/competion with a rifle you built, well, what about the shooter/shooters who beat him in that contest/competion? Would that make the builder of those rifles superior to your skills/rifle building abilitys? Na, it's the shooter and always will be and just maybe the luck of the draw, weather and so on.

That was just some of the items I was thinking on.

Kelley O.

P.S. I could tell you something about CCI-BR-2 primers, except it would be contrary to some that will read the above.

Yeah,
There are a lot of very good rifles out there & once you have a fairly decent 2Moa load @ 1000 for them, It's what Kelley says "Na, it's the shooter and always will be and just maybe the luck of the draw, weather and so on."! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Idahjo, .. I use LP's for Swiss & WLR's for Goex (wish I could find some of those old ones in white boxes to try). I keep an eye on the blocks of my Pedersolis, but haven't seen anything in about 2500 rds.
Like Kenny said, I tried the over the primer wad and if there was any difference with or without it, I couldn't see it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> .......Dennis