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Ammo Oracle says XM193 must strike at 2700fps to fragment. Maybe down to 2600. From my chrono and exbal that leaves me at less than 150 yards if my chrono is accurate.
Does anyone have a definitive study at hand on the MK262 and it max effective range. Do these 77smk's fragment at the cannelure or do they just tumble?
My friend at work, his son came back from Iraq and had no complaints about the MK262 and told me one shot stops were common. That anecdote got me to looking at it. What is the hard data?
Is the 64gr PP as good or better than MK262? My hunting bud has turned in some devastating wounds but all shots in thick woods 100 yds or less. Anybody got the hard data on that pill for reliable expansion fps?
Always grateful for the feedback.
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Campfire Kahuna
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The biggest problem is finding a SHTF real life scenario.
beyond that I've shot enough stuff with Hornady 75 bthp and 77 SMK to never worry about will it kill. Its all about shot placement anyway.
Drive the 77 to a fast accurate load and forget the rest.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Thanks for the feedback. I am leaning strongly in that direction but from a frugality standpoint if I remember rightly the 64grain PP is about 1/2 price of the 77smk.
Thanks again.
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I wouldn't be afraid of stashing up a number of rounds off the 64 either.
Or even bulk 62 fmjs. Its always going to be the indian and not the arrow in these situations.
And folks keep forgetting that IF we ever got into a SHTF scenario there will be ammo laying around to pickup for spare anyway, that or you'll be in shape not to worry about it anymore.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Comparing military ammo to SHTF ammo is a waste of time. The military has to conform to rules that civilians do not have to bother with. Also, if the S did HTF, who really cares about rules governing bullets.
The military is constrained by The Hague treaties that preclude the use of bullets designed to expand and cause greater wounds (it's much better to use a clean grenade or a gentle flamethrower instead of an evil expanding bullet.)
The 77SMK is a target bullet, with the hollow point in front because of the way the bullet is manufactured. The shape of the meplat is not a cause of inaccuracy in a bullet, and it is much easier to form a nice boat tail that way and the shape of the boat tail is critical. The 77SMK is not designed to expand when it hits the paper (or anything else,) and the increased lethality of the round is due to 4 aspects: it's heavier; it's not as stable as the M955 or M193 round out of a 1:7 twist barrel when it hits something; it retains its velocity better because of its higher BC and so will hit with more force at long ranges; and it's more accurate so shots in vital areas are more likely to occur.
I personally like the 77SMK for a heavy bullet that seats in mag-length properly, but it is not a STHF bullet. For that the 64gr PP is a much better bullet or any other expanding bullet is much better suited to the task.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Really. Are you totally sure you want something that expands as rapidly as a 64 if you are SHTF? Do you not want to retain a lot of weight just in case due to barriers, body armor, and the like?
I see the point of the expanders for sure, but then again there are otehr needs on the fields of battle.
Actually bottom line I"d take whatever I had more than likely.
As to expansion, SMKs keep getting that rap they won't expand. I have yet to shoot a SMK into an animal that did not expand. And lets just say over the years I"ve grabbed what I had handy more than a few times and more than a few deer and hogs and loads of javelina have hit the ground never knowing they were shot with a "non expanding" bullet.
Just stirring the pot a bit here.
Of course my personal ideal would be the TSX or TTSX but who has the money to load up 5 or 10K of those to just lay around.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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From what I've seen of the 64 pp it is way to lightly constructed for a shtf bullet. I'd go TSX, Fusion, ScII, or even AMAX before the pp.
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As usual, you make good points but one needs to keep in mind that a SHTF scenario can range from a home invasion by a dog to an apocalyptic event; take your pick.
It is far more likely that a SHTF would be at the lower end of the above spectrum and punching through barriers and body armor is a very remote possibility and the expansion qualities of the 64PP would be desired.
As you go up the scale of SHTF, the likelyhood that many people would be able to evacuate dragging 5k or 10k rounds diminishes. If you are the type of person who wears the latest fashion of foil-lined hats, you might want to keep several magazines loaded with what you think are the very best bullets for your purposes, say one or two hundred rounds.
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Right church, wrong pew.Fragmentation is the primary wounding mechanism for 77-gr SMK/Mk262. It can fragment at as little as 2100 fps and demonstrates reliable fragmentation at 2300. From a 16" barrel, that should make it good to 225 meters.
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Interesting read, thanks for the link. The authors have a good sense of humor.
I note a couple of things. First off, there is no date on the report. Why is that an issue? Well, the ammo shown is loaded with Nosler bullets, not SMKs. We do know there was a time when BHA used Noslers because Sierra refused to put a cannellure on the 77SMK, but that was only temporary; Sierra relented and Mk262 Mod 1 was loaded with cannelured SMKs from that point on. We are talking about two different bullets here.
I have been told, but have not verified and have no way of doing this, that SMKs have a thicker jacket than the Noslers. Does that make a difference? I don't know.
Also, I have a problem trusting reports that are anonymous. It does not mean the report is a fraud and I don't see what there is to be gained with a fake report, but questions linger.
Again, thanks for the link.
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However, that said. The more I think about it the more I think either 77gr OTM will fragment equally. These are target bullets, so they are un-bonded cup and lead core bullets. This means when they hit something there is really no reason they won't break up and break up quick. And when the lead core goes solo at those velocities and deceleration stresses, it's going to come apart quick.
Just thinking out loud here.
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I don't know about thicker, but Nosler uses J4 jackets and they are softer than Sierra.
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I've put several 77gr SMK's into coyotes and have had very few exits. The bullet kills them well. I would not use it for barrier penetration though. This link is a good read but pay attention to the first paragraph. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
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The trauma of a xm193 is pretty tough!
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I had not thought of this problem, from the link:
"Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on some JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased."
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Also, don't forget in a real SHTF situation, you really don't want to get into a gunfight. You want to stay unknown. Someone a few hundred yards away probably doesn't even know that you exist, so why call attention to you by shooting at them?
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OK. The chit hit the fan...
Why are you engaging at distances of more than 100 yards instead of retreating?
My SHTF is a stock 10-22. I doubt that at distances I have to engage a target they are going to be concerned about the FPS of the 22 caliber round coming there way.
Additionally the simple fact is for energy to be transfered you have to first hit the target.
I can put alot more rounds downrange accuratly with a 22LR than I can with a .223 rem.
I can carry alot more 22LR ammo than I can .223.
I can store a lot more 22LR ammo for the same amount of money.
As a small game caliber I can kill anything I need with a 22LR as well as a .223 without making as much noise.
A 10-22 with a wood stock is going to draw a lot less attention than a AR-15.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Well are we talking SHTF or Zombies here? If Zombies we need to rethink our strategy. I mean you cannot bug out to the mountains with Zombies and all that.
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Don't over-think it.
Just have some ammo.
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OK. The chit hit the fan...
Why are you engaging at distances of more than 100 yards instead of retreating?
My SHTF is a stock 10-22. I doubt that at distances I have to engage a target they are going to be concerned about the FPS of the 22 caliber round coming there way.
Additionally the simple fact is for energy to be transfered you have to first hit the target.
I can put alot more rounds downrange accuratly with a 22LR than I can with a .223 rem.
I can carry alot more 22LR ammo than I can .223.
I can store a lot more 22LR ammo for the same amount of money.
As a small game caliber I can kill anything I need with a 22LR as well as a .223 without making as much noise.
A 10-22 with a wood stock is going to draw a lot less attention than a AR-15.
The 22lr has it's place and 99% of the time, the "chit" will be an intruder/burgular type situation. For that I'm sure you'd be fine with a 22lr unless the intrudewr is armed as well.  Going further, being able to put distance between you and the bad guy/guys and still make lethal hits is a plus in any gunfight. I would hate to think that I had to defend my position with a 10/22 against someone with a high powered rifle sitting behind some rocks at say 200 yards... Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
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i would rethink the position as being "mine" were someone at 200 poping rounds towards me. But I can promise you that he's not going to keep his head up high with ANY .22's pouring in on him. its called suppressive fire. My point is that i plan for the 99%, not the 1%. you cant cover every concievable mental masturbation idea. What goods the AR-15 going to do if the guys 600 yards away and shooting a lapua? See? But I am going to have a lot of ammo in my bag, a lot of stores more and i'm not going to spend near the same amount of resources to aquire them. And a zombie shot in the head with a 22LR is more deannimated than one shot in the body with a 12 ga.  ![[Linked Image]](http://www.nevadashooters.com/images/smilies/th_smiley_emoticons_zombie02.gif)
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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I know it's taking this discussion another direction, but how is your SHTF 10/22 set up? I like your philosophy.
Last edited by turkish; 05/18/12.
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You shouldn't be counting on fragmentation with any load/rifle or combination thereof. Yes, it can happen somewhat reliably at the right ranges, not arguing that -- but you don't want to /expect/ it to. Yawing and whatnot's great, but count on shooting multiple rounds (or aiming for the head, if you're hunting or have a premeditated shot to break). Not only is it good to get used to in case somebody/thing takes that many rounds, but it's a human tendency under stress to shoot till they're dead. Find the cheapest load that's 100% in your gun(s) and roll with it. Lots of cheap ammo's better than less good ammo, in general. If you have the means of setting up a cache of high-quality ammo, though, go for it. Just make sure you've got some food, too. 
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Yeah...
I have the same delima...
"Find the cheapest load that's 100% in your gun(s) and roll with it. Lots of cheap ammo's better than less good ammo"
Also I perscribe to the "22LR" school.
Once up on a time...
I was garage sailing with a friend.
He bought about a dozen butter knives for like a dollar or something cheep. I ask em why.
He told me that "a butter knife was better then nothing"...
I'd rather have 1k of cheep stuff then 20 of good stuff...
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I know of one guy who has a lot of assets at his disposal. He shoots a bunch and owns many very cool firearms. His shtf rifle is an old SMLE jungle carbine backed up by an old 1911. If he has to run out the back door quickly, that's what he's taking.
Evan Marshall has Mosin Nagant carbines due to the lack of expense for the firearm and a goodly supply of ammunition.
A friend of mine...former military retired...generally always had a .22 handgun available...either a Ruger Single Six flatgate.....he wore it out, or a Colt Woodsman. When he deployed, one of these went along, plus a brick or two of ammo which will go a long way if applied carefully.
So, we don't always have to have the latest or the best to get the job done. We just have to be really good with what we can afford.
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Evan Marshall has Mosin Nagant carbines due to the lack of expense for the firearm and a goodly supply of ammunition.
Problem is, he's starting to think that he's going to need it a little bit too eagerly... 
Last edited by UPhiker; 05/19/12.
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Campfire Kahuna
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i would rethink the position as being "mine" were someone at 200 poping rounds towards me. But I can promise you that he's not going to keep his head up high with ANY .22's pouring in on him. its called suppressive fire. My point is that i plan for the 99%, not the 1%. you cant cover every concievable mental masturbation idea. What goods the AR-15 going to do if the guys 600 yards away and shooting a lapua? See? But I am going to have a lot of ammo in my bag, a lot of stores more and i'm not going to spend near the same amount of resources to aquire them. And a zombie shot in the head with a 22LR is more deannimated than one shot in the body with a 12 ga. Off topic a hair here, but if the guy is 600 with a lapua, he better nail me first shot... my AR is very capable at 600.. first round kill capable. But when you get into this crazy SHTF stuff... as noted, you can't carry much ammo... one train of thought says the wife and I need a shotgun, a small rifle and pistol, both 22 with cans, and some type of rifle, be it AR or other. Thats assuming we have to leave present digs. If not there is plenty here to deal with any issues that may arise. And as I've noted before... there will be plenty more weapons and ammo as long as you win the fights.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Yeah...
I have the same delima...
"Find the cheapest load that's 100% in your gun(s) and roll with it. Lots of cheap ammo's better than less good ammo"
Also I perscribe to the "22LR" school.
Once up on a time...
I was garage sailing with a friend.
He bought about a dozen butter knives for like a dollar or something cheep. I ask em why.
He told me that "a butter knife was better then nothing"...
I'd rather have 1k of cheep stuff then 20 of good stuff...
qualify taht with cheap, as long as its reliable and I can go with it to an extent. Though most SMLES or Nagants won't have the range of a better gun if anyone thinks thats an issue.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Every man has to place his own bets and live with the outcome.
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I know it's taking this discussion another direction, but how is your SHTF 10/22 set up? I like your philosophy. Box stock. wood handle. I want it to look as benign as possible. I dont want the added attention of an "assault rifle". In additon to the fact that a 22LR is going to be able to gather game better than a .223 is. Ever seen a tree rat hit with a .223? weight, space, cost, recoil, wear and tear, public perception, muzzleblast, noise, and effectivness on game and goblin's... I will take a 22LR anyday over an AR, AK, mini, ect. And for all you guys who are warming up your lips to say..."Yeah, but you cant reload the 22LR, SO THERE." Yeah, I cant. I dont have to. I can spend the equal amount of money on bullets, primers, powder and buy more LOADED 22LR. You plan on stopping in a firefight to pick up your brass?
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Slow down Hoss, I have several thousand rounds of 22lr ammo to go with my benign buckmark pistol...
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Campfire Kahuna
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You going into a firefight now with a 22lr?
As to tree rats and 223.... I don't do the cajun skull thing, no more damage from a 223 than a 22 compared to edible amounts of meat anyway.
But I do see the points from both camps.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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No. I am throwing suppressive fire and getting TFOD. You want to get into a firefight?
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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What the hell are you guys talking about a new video game?
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Dont know, rost is headed into a firefight and I'm running away. This is a pretty slick bugger huh? ![[Linked Image]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3371/3482054248_2dae5f1c40_o.jpg)
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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I screwed a 16" bull on my 10/22, lost the band and cut off the factory fore-end nub and refinished the stock after scratching out the barrel channel to make it fit.
I love that little rifle and so does my wife. Shoots tiny little groups too. Got one of those triggers from those folks that make all that aftermarket 10-22 stuff, forgot the name! LOL
Might get another 10-22 someday soon.
I read somewhere years ago (cannot document source) that the Israeli Defense Force bought some 10-22's for crowd control, the tactic being to shoot low at the legs to disperse rowdies bent on killing but they gave up the idea when too many folks got out right killed. If that article was true or not I cannot tell. I would not want to get shot with one for sure. It would probaly hurt, or worse.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Dont know, rost is headed into a firefight and I'm running away. This is a pretty slick bugger huh? nope not headed into one either, you said you wouldn't stop to pickup up 223 brass in a firefight, just got me to wondering if you were taking the 22lr into a firefight.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Ringworm...
Who makes that stock? I like it.
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Hey Rost! I got an idea...
I have a friend who cobbles and has a lathe. He bought a savage and got a barrel and cut a 223 chamber "just so" for a 55 grainer. It was a bolt gun obviously. It worked real well.
I am wondering if I was to get a build with a chamber cut to maximize accuracy with the 75grain hornady? In an AR. A guy down the road will do a build for near about the price of a factory rifle out the box.
Just thinking out loud here...
Most AR 5.56 nato chambers have rather long leade if I understand it rightly..
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Dont know, rost is headed into a firefight and I'm running away. This is a pretty slick bugger huh? nope not headed into one either, you said you wouldn't stop to pickup up 223 brass in a firefight, just got me to wondering if you were taking the 22lr into a firefight. I would never, under any reason i can fathom, enter into a fire fight of my own volition. If i knew it was coming i would run. If i dont know its coming it doesnt matter what rifle i have in my hands i am kinda forced to use that. I dont share doomsday dreams with a lot or prepers. I like my life the way it is now. Now this isnt directed at you personally but to whatever person it applies. What makes you think that because you have an AR, AK ect that you are going to beat me in a firefight if all i have is a 22? You put that much emphasis on gear? Some of the best armed folks in the world wouldnt stand a chance against the right/ wrong person armed with a 22. Its the training, the experience and the know how that wins fights. Those who focus on gear are usually under the impression that the gear makes the difference. The reaon they do is so they dont have to face the fact that all they have is gear and equipment. That when it comes to what really matters they are empty handed. Stay ready and you aint got to get ready. the is more to survival than bullets.
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I'll need more than a .22LR when the end of the world comes. I have an ample supply of freeze dried pop tarts that will need defending!
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I don't want to be on a two way range with anyone, anytime, for any reason, against even a BB gun. I leave you experts to wax poetic regards the attributes of your favorite imaginary scenario.
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Dont know, rost is headed into a firefight and I'm running away. This is a pretty slick bugger huh? nope not headed into one either, you said you wouldn't stop to pickup up 223 brass in a firefight, just got me to wondering if you were taking the 22lr into a firefight. I would never, under any reason i can fathom, enter into a fire fight of my own volition. If i knew it was coming i would run. If i dont know its coming it doesnt matter what rifle i have in my hands i am kinda forced to use that. I dont share doomsday dreams with a lot or prepers. I like my life the way it is now. Now this isnt directed at you personally but to whatever person it applies. What makes you think that because you have an AR, AK ect that you are going to beat me in a firefight if all i have is a 22? You put that much emphasis on gear? Some of the best armed folks in the world wouldnt stand a chance against the right/ wrong person armed with a 22. Its the training, the experience and the know how that wins fights. Those who focus on gear are usually under the impression that the gear makes the difference. The reaon they do is so they dont have to face the fact that all they have is gear and equipment. That when it comes to what really matters they are empty handed. Stay ready and you aint got to get ready. the is more to survival than bullets. I think we are on the wrong subject here. Its you that chimed in that you would not stop to pick up 223 brass in a fire fight which led to your talking about a 22, and which I SIMPLY asked, were you thinking of using a 22 in a firefight? Me, I'm on the exact same page as you are RE the fights. I'll avoid every last one if I possibly can. And I"m with you on the 22, I"ve often said one of the best tools in a scenario that will never happen anyway, will be a 22 with a can. Even if its a single shot, it will be ONE of the most useful tools you can have. Evidently I misunderstood your statement about brass and a 223 and firefight. Bottom line is back to the old statement... its the Indian, not the arrow.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Hey Rost! I got an idea...
I have a friend who cobbles and has a lathe. He bought a savage and got a barrel and cut a 223 chamber "just so" for a 55 grainer. It was a bolt gun obviously. It worked real well.
I am wondering if I was to get a build with a chamber cut to maximize accuracy with the 75grain hornady? In an AR. A guy down the road will do a build for near about the price of a factory rifle out the box.
Just thinking out loud here...
Most AR 5.56 nato chambers have rather long leade if I understand it rightly.. The LAST think you want is a chamber that is built for one specific ammo in a SHTF thinking scenario. and in a SHTF scenario, accuracy is far from the most important thing I'm after.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The S has HTF on several occasions here in the US. I live in tornado alley, others live in hurricane areas and evidently, we all live in earthquake prone areas. I may be dumber than most but I've worked hard for what little I've gathered up, I will stand and fight to protect me and mine.
We had 8 people shot after a ball game this past week, it doesn't have to be the end of the whole world. Heck it might just be Zimmerman set free to start the next riots where I would want more than a 22... but to each his own.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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We had 8 people shot after a ball game this past week, it doesn't have to be the end of the whole world.
Exactly, it only has to be the end of YOUR little paradise.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have been lucky.
I have only been through the Miami Riots after Lozano, Andrew, Kobe Earthquake, Bertha and Fran.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That right there, a 22 with a silencer really sounds like a lot of fun! A 10 22 would be a "riot".
Last edited by jimmyp; 05/24/12.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I wouldn't call a little civil unrest as SHTF.
And we are always ready for something minor like that. I figured everyone had a stash of some type of ARs, shotguns, rifles, handguns and while I don't keep a lot of ammo around, we do keep an amount of components. Figuring if you have 5K or so of loaded ammo for the semis, and 1000 or more for the rest not counting typically having 10 cases of 22lr around, you are set for the minor stuff.
SHTF is much more serious than that IMHO. Its the collapse of the USA as we know it, and I don't see that happening in my lifetime, either financially or via some type of take over/invasion...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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FK ammo. I horde coffee. I must have 35-40 chockfull of nuts cans. If the world goes to chit I'm not gonna be stuck drinking chickory. I figure tobacco is grown locally but coffee? Ever seen a hard core coffee drinker after about 2 days without a fix? Makes heroin withdrawl look like an runny nose. Results of the Johns Hopkins study should result in caffeine withdrawal being included in the next edition of the DSM or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, considered the bible of mental disorders, and the diagnosis should be updated in the World Health Organization's ICD, or The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.
"Caffeine is the world's most commonly used stimulant, and it's cheap and readily available so people can maintain their use of caffeine quite easily," says Roland Griffiths, Ph.D., professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at Johns Hopkins. "The latest research demonstrates, however, that when people don't get their usual dose they can suffer a range of withdrawal symptoms, including headache, fatigue, difficulty concentrating. They may even feel like they have the flu with nausea and muscle pain."
In their review, the researchers identified 57 experimental studies and nine survey studies on caffeine withdrawal, and examined each to assess the validity of the reported findings.
The researchers identified five clusters of common withdrawal symptoms: headache; fatigue or drowsiness; dysphoric mood including depression and irritability; difficulty concentrating; and flu-like symptoms of nausea, vomiting and muscle pain or stiffness. In experimental studies, 50 percent of people experienced headache and 13 percent had clinically significant distress or functional impairment -- for example, severe headache and other symptoms incompatible with working.
According to the report, caffeine is the most widely used behaviorally active drug in the world. In North America, 80 percent to 90 percent of adults report regular use of caffeine.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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exactly why I don't horde ammo, I keep enough around, and seeds, and dry goods and such stashed and sealed. Just enough to keep things going.
Thankfully I've never been addicted to things like nicotine or caffeine drug wise, nor alcohol or the like or worse. Just one less thing to worry about.
I've seen what happens out in the bush in AK when we ran out of coffee for one guy though that was a hardcore drinker... about like when my boss stops dipping for 1-3 days every so often... ain't pretty.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I use to drink 6-8 mountain dews a day and dipped copenhagen. Gave all that up, even the caffeine. I think we'd be better off getting in better shape and eating right than stockpiling ammo. It's funny watching guys at the range with all their tactical gear, being out of breath walking back from the 100 yard line...
I'm 47 and average running 3 miles a day, what did you do today to prepare? grin
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Funny. I"m 47 too, and not right now, but have run 3 miles a day at times. I"m lifting due to joining a fire department, and doing the insane workout as I have time.
But yes its not only funny to watch those out of breath, but its not so funny when you find yourself in that shape at times too. I"m beat when I come out of a structure fire. I'd prefer not to feel that tired.
Education, a bit of a stash, and lots of knowledge will go a long ways. And one reason I never figured on having a large stash of ammo, how the heck would you pack it if you had to leave for whatever reason....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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right now I am only bike riding, I pulled a muscle in my back between my shoulder blades "at the gym", but we rode 30 miles on Sunday and plan to ride 40 this weekend. Stockpiling ammo is too dangerous, I just don't believe in it.
I am just a 59 year old country boy that grew up in a different era, but I am pretty sure I will NOT "bug out to the moooounnuntains" just sit right here with my coffee and beer.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Curious, how do you assume the stockpiling is dangerous?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Just has to be dangerous, why I would never dream of stockpiling ammo! 
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've been thinking about a bike. Seems like it'd be a lot softer on my old body. I've been switching between running 3.5 miles a day, to 5 miles every other day and doing 6.5 miles on Saturdays. I have cut my 10k down to 1 hour 08 minutes (actually 6.49 miles) not fast by any means but not bad.
Throwing a bike in there on my off days should let my muscles rest while still keeping the heart rate up.
Of course I don't know what this has to do with a SHTF load but here we are....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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We have a couple of the trek 7100 hybrids and have really enjoyed them, but we find ourselves riding further all the time and only on paved trails, thinking about looking at something a little more streamlined with a narrower tire. Best thing we ever did was get the bikes, and with a couple of backpacks we can go to the grocery store and use no gas!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've been thinking about a bike. Seems like it'd be a lot softer on my old body. I've been switching between running 3.5 miles a day, to 5 miles every other day and doing 6.5 miles on Saturdays. I have cut my 10k down to 1 hour 08 minutes (actually 6.49 miles) not fast by any means but not bad.
Throwing a bike in there on my off days should let my muscles rest while still keeping the heart rate up.
Of course I don't know what this has to do with a SHTF load but here we are.... Well, having a good mountain bike is good SHTF planning, IMO. I try to bike about once a week and run twice each week. That combined with about three scaled Crossfit workouts gets the job done
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Bikes have always been easier on my body and joints than running, but running is always much less complicated as in I have to get to a safer place to ride the road bikes, the gravel road and pasture here isn't their friend.
I suppose I could go mountain bike but for some reason that doesn't interest me much. Maybe due to an occasional duathlon.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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How about having a number of small stashes hid around in different places?
They could contain as little as a jug of water and a candle...
Maybe a box of 22LR an a hand full of other ammo...
What do you all think?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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After doing a lot of testing and reading I decided to go 75 grain bullets for the ARs and 1/9 bolt guns I have. The first Stag I bought really loves Hornady 75 grain TAP ammo and shoots PRVI 75 grain Match just about as well. These are a few of the targets... ![[Linked Image]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/SW57060511034.jpg) Same LTR with Hornady TAP at 600 yards.. ![[Linked Image]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/SW57060511003.jpg) Stag at 300 with TAP... ![[Linked Image]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/SW57060511033.jpg) Stag at 600 with TAP...5" group... ![[Linked Image]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/LongRange102607010.jpg) LTR with TAP at 300... ![[Linked Image]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/LongRange110707022.jpg) A friend's son was a 1st Lieutenant in charge of a firebase in Afghanistan in 2010. His unit had 136 confirmed kills...the "kid" said the real number was more like 300. He said the 62s worked fine but some SEALs who were at the base for some time left several cases of 75s behind....over 100 yards there was marked difference in how those hit reacted to the shot... 55s and 62 don't even come close in accuracy of the 75s in my guns...and that is what I have squirreled away... Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Never saw any TAP ammo but I keep hearing its usually pretty accurate.
Actually have rarely shot any factory ammo.
Anyone tell me what bullet the TAP ammo uses? I've heard 75 amax, 75 bthp and a clone inbetween the two whatever that means.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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the difference in TAP compared to simple AMAX handloads in the flash inhibitor coated powders.
A simple recipie of AMAX bullets and 4895 will give the same accuracy.
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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IIRC and its been a few years since I saw tap.... I thought the ogive of the bullet looked different than the amax I am/was used to?
Just curious here. I know a regular 75 amax to mag length is FUNKY looking and I don't recall tap looking that way.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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TAP uses the BTHP, not the AMAX.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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They use the V-max in the 55 gr version or at least that's what BC's macth up, .255 on the 55 V-max and .395 on the 75gr BTHP where as the 75 A-max's BC is .435
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I thought I'd seen what was told to me being a 75 amax type but a very 'fat' ogive with a plastic red tip. Told to me as proprietary. But the source was LEO and that may be the answer.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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BC's match is all I know...
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Just curious, how many of you guys have ever had to shoot at people????? Seems like many want to talk about SHTF and Zombie bullsh%t but most want to talk about what happens on the other end when they don't have a fuc%in clue
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What is up with you there blanket? Tell us more.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Straight up hardcore stone cold killer, yo.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Nope not at all, like the urban gangsta reference bullsh#t tho
Last edited by blanket; 05/27/12.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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SHTF is a could be real thing.
Zombies is a total hoax. Two TOTALLY different subjects therein.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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In some circles, zombies is a euphemism that has replaced "sheeple" or "the unwashed".
In my circle, though, they are are just another name for spawned out pink salmon...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Just curious, how many of you guys have ever had to shoot at people????? Seems like many want to talk about SHTF and Zombie bullsh%t but most want to talk about what happens on the other end when they don't have a fuc%in clue Please enlighten us clueless folks then blanket.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have used 77 grain SMK/ MK262 on things and it works well. Thinking about it, I have used everything from 52 grain SMKs to 60 grain Vmax to 55 grain soft points of various manufacturers, to FMJ, etc, etc.
FMJ would be the last choice for 99% of stuff. That being said, any decent load will do fine. Pick something, standardize, zero out your guns and then stop worrying about minutia.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Anyone know of any good deals on projectiles?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It's funny watching guys at the range with all their tactical gear, being out of breath walking back from the 100 yard line...
Clint Smith had an article about this very thing a couple of months ago. He finished the article with this line "be who you are, not who you imagine you are". I work in a gunshop and see this same thing every day. People who have never backpacked and are 50lbs overweight thinking that they are going to throw on an ALICE pack and head for the hills. Others will talk your ear off for half and hour about their tacticool black rifle but haven't shot any farther than our 25yd indoor pistol range. Then there are those that are "ready" for TEOTWAWKI but either don't have a CCW or do but never carry because "it's too much trouble" or "I never go where I need it". C'mon, although the chances of either are remote, what is more likely to happen, the SHTF or a street mugging? Every time someone says that they never go anywhere where they'll need a CCW, I ask them if they hunt. If they say that they do, I ask them if they always carry a gun. If the answer is again yes, I ask them why they just don't carry it on the days when they see game. Their answer is "but I never know when I'll need it" and I reply with "EXACTLY!".
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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There's more to survival than pulling a trigger, that's for sure.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I really liked the tin foil hat idea.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Do you use regular tinfoil or the special heavy duty foil?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Heavy duty and shiny side out.
shhh, they're listening! ;^)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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We use the same, buy it at Sams in the bulk rolls.....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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There's more to survival than pulling a trigger, that's for sure. I am a non practicing pacifist.. 
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The SHTF rig, of SHTF rigs.... ![[Linked Image]](http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx210/16bore/AHBshootmar3.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I can't decide if Yellow Jackets or Blazers would be best for SHTF situations. Maybe CCI Mini Mags, ya know since they are "magnum".
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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yep, that one won't draw any attention. grins.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm just bummed that Hornady hasn't marketed the "SHTF" load. Damnation. If the SHTF, and one doesn't have SHTF ammo is he or she SOL? WTF?
Maybe someone could just turn off the fan....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,867 Likes: 6 |
16 Bore, If they turn off the fan, you would be UTC (Up the CreeK), with no fan blowing! I do like your marketing idea though, when the zombie craze dies off they could try that next!
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489 |
Someone, Hornady I think, makes some chit about Zombies that don't even exist... you'd think that something that COULD actually happen would be more marketable than some fairy tale..
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,867 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,867 Likes: 6 |
No kidding!
It is amazing what sells though.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,856
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,856 |
Would a SHTF load be different than an EOTWAWKI load?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
Yeah, it'd be pretty easy to find yourself in a SHTF situation. I'll save my EOTWAWKI comments for the main Campfire/political discussion............
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
I guess the stuff they give our armed forces isn't sufficient for SHTF scenarios. Let me know what you come up with so I can send some to my buddy in Afghanistan...
Jeezuzphuckingkryst.....this is epic like [bleep] blue tape.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489 |
I'm happy to shoot whatever is in the gun when it needs to go bang on spur of the moment. Coyotes have never known the difference as of today anyway. If I have ball, I just make sure I crunch some stuff. Which I do even if its 75 bthps
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1 |
The pink zebra stock beats blue tape
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
If we ever get attacked by Neccos, my daughter will be able to hold her own....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489 |
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
She might be a zombie since she ate half the targets. Next go around will be Sweetarts. They taste better...
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