Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Frustrated in finding 5.56 SHTF load.

Ammo Oracle says XM193 must strike at 2700fps to fragment. Maybe down to 2600. From my chrono and exbal that leaves me at less than 150 yards if my chrono is accurate.

Does anyone have a definitive study at hand on the MK262 and it max effective range. Do these 77smk's fragment at the cannelure or do they just tumble?

My friend at work, his son came back from Iraq and had no complaints about the MK262 and told me one shot stops were common. That anecdote got me to looking at it. What is the hard data?

Is the 64gr PP as good or better than MK262? My hunting bud has turned in some devastating wounds but all shots in thick woods 100 yds or less. Anybody got the hard data on that pill for reliable expansion fps?

Always grateful for the feedback.

The biggest problem is finding a SHTF real life scenario.

beyond that I've shot enough stuff with Hornady 75 bthp and 77 SMK to never worry about will it kill. Its all about shot placement anyway.

Drive the 77 to a fast accurate load and forget the rest.

Thanks for the feedback. I am leaning strongly in that direction but from a frugality standpoint if I remember rightly the 64grain PP is about 1/2 price of the 77smk.

Thanks again.

I wouldn't be afraid of stashing up a number of rounds off the 64 either.

Or even bulk 62 fmjs. Its always going to be the indian and not the arrow in these situations.

And folks keep forgetting that IF we ever got into a SHTF scenario there will be ammo laying around to pickup for spare anyway, that or you'll be in shape not to worry about it anymore.

Comparing military ammo to SHTF ammo is a waste of time. The military has to conform to rules that civilians do not have to bother with. Also, if the S did HTF, who really cares about rules governing bullets.

The military is constrained by The Hague treaties that preclude the use of bullets designed to expand and cause greater wounds (it's much better to use a clean grenade or a gentle flamethrower instead of an evil expanding bullet.)

The 77SMK is a target bullet, with the hollow point in front because of the way the bullet is manufactured. The shape of the meplat is not a cause of inaccuracy in a bullet, and it is much easier to form a nice boat tail that way and the shape of the boat tail is critical. The 77SMK is not designed to expand when it hits the paper (or anything else,) and the increased lethality of the round is due to 4 aspects: it's heavier; it's not as stable as the M955 or M193 round out of a 1:7 twist barrel when it hits something; it retains its velocity better because of its higher BC and so will hit with more force at long ranges; and it's more accurate so shots in vital areas are more likely to occur.

I personally like the 77SMK for a heavy bullet that seats in mag-length properly, but it is not a STHF bullet. For that the 64gr PP is a much better bullet or any other expanding bullet is much better suited to the task.

Really. Are you totally sure you want something that expands as rapidly as a 64 if you are SHTF? Do you not want to retain a lot of weight just in case due to barriers, body armor, and the like?

I see the point of the expanders for sure, but then again there are otehr needs on the fields of battle.

Actually bottom line I"d take whatever I had more than likely.

As to expansion, SMKs keep getting that rap they won't expand. I have yet to shoot a SMK into an animal that did not expand. And lets just say over the years I"ve grabbed what I had handy more than a few times and more than a few deer and hogs and loads of javelina have hit the ground never knowing they were shot with a "non expanding" bullet.

Just stirring the pot a bit here.

Of course my personal ideal would be the TSX or TTSX but who has the money to load up 5 or 10K of those to just lay around.

From what I've seen of the 64 pp it is way to lightly constructed for a shtf bullet. I'd go TSX, Fusion, ScII, or even AMAX before the pp.

As usual, you make good points but one needs to keep in mind that a SHTF scenario can range from a home invasion by a dog to an apocalyptic event; take your pick.

It is far more likely that a SHTF would be at the lower end of the above spectrum and punching through barriers and body armor is a very remote possibility and the expansion qualities of the 64PP would be desired.

As you go up the scale of SHTF, the likelyhood that many people would be able to evacuate dragging 5k or 10k rounds diminishes. If you are the type of person who wears the latest fashion of foil-lined hats, you might want to keep several magazines loaded with what you think are the very best bullets for your purposes, say one or two hundred rounds.

Right church, wrong pew.

Fragmentation is the primary wounding mechanism for 77-gr SMK/Mk262. It can fragment at as little as 2100 fps and demonstrates reliable fragmentation at 2300. From a 16" barrel, that should make it good to 225 meters.

Interesting read, thanks for the link. The authors have a good sense of humor.

I note a couple of things. First off, there is no date on the report. Why is that an issue? Well, the ammo shown is loaded with Nosler bullets, not SMKs. We do know there was a time when BHA used Noslers because Sierra refused to put a cannellure on the 77SMK, but that was only temporary; Sierra relented and Mk262 Mod 1 was loaded with cannelured SMKs from that point on. We are talking about two different bullets here.

I have been told, but have not verified and have no way of doing this, that SMKs have a thicker jacket than the Noslers. Does that make a difference? I don't know.

Also, I have a problem trusting reports that are anonymous. It does not mean the report is a fraud and I don't see what there is to be gained with a fake report, but questions linger.

Again, thanks for the link.

However, that said. The more I think about it the more I think either 77gr OTM will fragment equally. These are target bullets, so they are un-bonded cup and lead core bullets. This means when they hit something there is really no reason they won't break up and break up quick. And when the lead core goes solo at those velocities and deceleration stresses, it's going to come apart quick.

Just thinking out loud here.

I don't know about thicker, but Nosler uses J4 jackets and they are softer than Sierra.

I've put several 77gr SMK's into coyotes and have had very few exits. The bullet kills them well. I would not use it for barrier penetration though. This link is a good read but pay attention to the first paragraph. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

The trauma of a xm193 is pretty tough!

I had not thought of this problem, from the link:

"Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on some JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased."

Also, don't forget in a real SHTF situation, you really don't want to get into a gunfight. You want to stay unknown. Someone a few hundred yards away probably doesn't even know that you exist, so why call attention to you by shooting at them?

OK. The chit hit the fan...
Why are you engaging at distances of more than 100 yards instead of retreating?

My SHTF is a stock 10-22. I doubt that at distances I have to engage a target they are going to be concerned about the FPS of the 22 caliber round coming there way.
Additionally the simple fact is for energy to be transfered you have to first hit the target.
I can put alot more rounds downrange accuratly with a 22LR than I can with a .223 rem.
I can carry alot more 22LR ammo than I can .223.
I can store a lot more 22LR ammo for the same amount of money.
As a small game caliber I can kill anything I need with a 22LR as well as a .223 without making as much noise.
A 10-22 with a wood stock is going to draw a lot less attention than a AR-15.

Well are we talking SHTF or Zombies here? If Zombies we need to rethink our strategy. I mean you cannot bug out to the mountains with Zombies and all that.

Don't over-think it.

Just have some ammo.

The 22lr has it's place and 99% of the time, the "chit" will be an intruder/burgular type situation. For that I'm sure you'd be fine with a 22lr unless the intrudewr is armed as well.

Going further, being able to put distance between you and the bad guy/guys and still make lethal hits is a plus in any gunfight. I would hate to think that I had to defend my position with a 10/22 against someone with a high powered rifle sitting behind some rocks at say 200 yards...

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.