Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Gunsmithing Restoring guns

I was thinking of buying old guns and restoring them in my free time. I was thinking of blueing, refinishing the stock, and possibly replacing parts like butt plates and what not. After restoring them I figured I would try to sell them to make back the money I put into them and hopefully a little more if I'm lucky.

Anyone done this before? Thoughts, comments, opinions, advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

yes if you work real hard and get really good at it you can make 1.00 hr lol it is somthing you just have to love to do..

AND likely you will need to get you get a FFL since your intent is sale of said refurbs

Yep, I have a safe full of '$1.00/hour' guns!

Another thing to consider is the specimens you intend to 'work' on- beware of originality/collect-ability issues before attacking them with tools of destruction!

and then, there is the liability problem. put everything you own in your mother's name in case you get sued. seriously, we all face the thread of lawsuits, like medical doctors...

A DOLLAR AN HOUR !! I KNEW I WAS GETTING SCREWED !!

If you change your name to turnbull......you have a chance.

Well I wasn't really gonna try to make a killing. I was hoping that I would be able to make back what it cost me for the supplies that I would use. I do like doing this kinda stuff and it would be alright with me if I only made a $1 an hour haha but I just don't want it to cost me money in the end. As far as selling them I would probably just sell them in our local newspaper which I don't think I need an ffl to do.

Thanks

Guns in original "mint" condition will always bring more than "restored" examples.

"Proper" restoration like Turnbull and and others perform is a labor inten$ive process.

IMHO, the best way to learn and help recoup the cost of your supplies is to buy inexpensive guns like .22's, muzzle loaders, pump, and single shot shotguns for next to nothing and go from there. If you mess up, you're out your time and little more. Sell them for what you can.

It's a labor of love for sure.

JIm

if you are buying guns with the intent to resell,as you just publicly announced, them by any definition you are a dealer and you would need an ffl regardless what you do with them while they are in your possession. you would be hard pressed to claim you are just the "occasional" exception. i also see you are from the state of pa. here you are required to collect the sales tax on any transfer of real property as a dealer.

I thought that there was a certain amount of guns per year or something that you had to sell that caused you to have to be a dealer. Plus I thought you only collected sales tax if you were a dealer. I know around here that if for example someone just sold there gun to there friend or something there was no sales tax involved and I didn't think you had to have an ffl to do so. I could be completely wrong on this so if I am please let me know.

If I buy a gun and fix it up shoot it a little bit and then take it to a store to trade it on another gun to do the same thing with do I need an ffl?

Thanks for the help.

I think you need to do a lot of research before doing this. Call the ATF and see what they say. Do not listen to heresy.

I looked some stuff up on the ATF's website and am planning on sending them an email or calling them. I would like to get an FFL but im only 19 so I can't or at least I don't think I can. Here is what I found so far.


Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person�s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee�s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
Performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or
changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike
manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is
primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily
affect only the appearance of a firearm.
Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or
changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or
applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.
Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to
or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not
need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.
Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who camouflages or engraves fireanns as described in this ruling does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.
Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or
-3
engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes
a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.

What I get from this makes it seem like it is ok because I will be buying the firearm myself, it will be in my possession and owned by me when it is being worked on. I'm not trying to start a business or anything I'm just looking for something to do, more like a hobby, or activity as they call it.

I'll let you know what I hear from them.

Thanks

Sorry for making the post so long

I believe your first post said fix up and sell. If you fix them up and keep them you shouldn't have a problem.

If a customer leaves his firearm on your premises, you MUST have an FFL and maintain a bound book of ALL transactions. Anyone not doing so is looking to get themselves in big trouble with the ATF.

Since we have no gunsmith within 80 miles I occasionally help friends and friends of friends with small stuff. Occasionally I'll refinish "grandma's old shotgun" which is almost always worth less than the cost of any repair but brought a grandma to tears once. I make it a point to never let anyone give me more than my out of pocket costs just to avoid any suspicion that I was breaking the rules even though the ATF would probably never find out.

The interpretation of the requirements revolves around what "in the business" means. In most situations it's clear and the ATF has better things to do than hunt down people who refinish a couple a year. But occasionally an "azzhat" agent will try to extend the meaning or press a marginal case and the Agency will almost always back their man just because he's their man. You don't want to meet that guy, not likely to end well for you even if you win.

Be aware that the opinion of an agent is not legally binding on the agency. An official letter ruling is binding on the agency only in respect to the exact question answered and only for the person to whom the letter is addressed. Official agency rulings are binding generally. Otherwise an opinion letter is considered merely good guidance, an agent's opinion less so. I believe one of the FAQs on the ATF web site even warns you that FAQs are not legally binding.

No luck with getting ahold of the ATF so I guess I will have to wait until Monday or Tuesday but I'll let you guys know what they say.

I appreciate that you guys are trying to keep me from getting in trouble and no offense but I think you are a little confused on what I am doing. I plan on buying a gun every now and then (maybe like one a month or every other month)and working on it as a hobby not as a business. Then when I get the gun fixed up I might shoot it a little bit and then when I find something else that I might want to work on I'll sell or trade the gun to get the new one. I'm not trying to start a business or make a living off of this so from what I have read I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm sure that there are plenty of members on this site that do the same thing like buying a project gun and messing with it for a little while and then selling/trading it to get another project gun.


Thanks

I got that. The point is that it depends on what "in the business" means. I can readily make the case that what you suggest is engaging in a business: buying and selling firearms on a regular and continuing basis with the intent to turn a profit. See ATF Ruling 75-31. So what if you don't do volume or make much money or even loose money, maybe you just suck at it. Lots of businesses are part time and loose money.

I'm not giving you an opinion, just saying how things could go wrong in the extreme case. It's not clear just where the line between hobby and business is, I stay well clear of it.

Well I was able to get a hold of the ATF today and I explained to them what I was doing. They said that what I was doing would be fine as long as I wasn't doing a large number of firearms in a short period of time. I told them that it would most likely be 2 or 3 guns during the course of the summer and they said that was perfectly fine.

Thanks for the help

Good luck with your venture. It is a fun hobby and maybe even a little profitable. I enjoy rust bluing barrels and wood work too.

Brent