Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Postell Bullets?

As a novice to the BPCR (so much the rookie I don't even own a Sharps or Roller yet! ) I have heard mention of different bullet designs and nose shapes and don't understand what the different shapes are and why one might be more useful than another.

Ranch13 mentioned in another thread about "original Postell bullet shapes" but I don't know what that means.

Is there a reference source anyone can point me to that might have the different bullet shapes and their advantages and/or disadvantages?

Thanks,

Ed

I don't know of a good general treatise on the various bullet shapes and designs. It is a widely discussed topic in BPCR circles, so a search could be helpful.

The Postell is a traditional bullet that seems to work well in a variety of rifles. It is fairly streamlined, not terribly different from the BACO money bullet I posted a pic of. Maybe not as good as some other designs for long range competition, but unless you plan to play at that game, you really don't need to get that involved with such fine points. A Postell wouldn't be a bad choice for a bullet for most any BPCR.

I don't hunt with BPCRs, but in general a bullet that is blunter and softer than a Postell works better for hunting.

You could probably find a pic of a Postell as well as the .45 Govt. (457125?) on Lyman's site or catalog. I have a couple of Postell moulds, but I don't shoot that bullet any more, so I don't think I have one to take a pic of.

Paul

Thank you, Paul. I figured that I could Google the terms and come up with the shape(s) but I was being lazy and thought there may be a reference work out there that covered it.

Ed

Ed, I just took a look at my Midway catalog, and on p. 448 they list the Lyman moulds with bullet pics. The .40 Postell is the #410663 round nose, and the .45 Govt. is #457125, also listed as a round nose but a very different, blunter shape.

Most mould makers offer a Postell of some sort. I have the Lyman .40 mould, and a .45 from Steve Brooks. Lyman doesn't appear to offer a .45 Postell.

Paul

The current Lyman postell bears little resemblance to the original postel. Current lyman postel has a much more pointed nose. The original postel bears great resemblance to the Paul Jones etal,, Creedmoor bullet in nose shape.
Takes for ever to load but if you look here at the 451xxx and 446xxx bullets they are more of the original postel design.
http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

Ranch13,
so, the 446187 and the 451113 are the ones that are closest to the original Postell design?

Ed

Paul,

I have seen the term "money bullet" used in a couple of posts. What does that mean? Does it refer to a competetion-style bullet?

Ed

Ed the 446187 is the closest to the original postel.
Altho Lyman still calls the 457132 the postel,the one they offer now is a good bit more areodynamic .

I don't know the exact history, but the designers were competitors looking for a ballistic advantage and that design was supposed to put them "in the money" at matches. At least that's what I understand about the history.

I posted pics of my BACO paper patch money bullets awhile back. It is currently a very popular long range bullet having excellent BC, etc. It is available in both paper patch and grease groove form, and also a version with mini-grooves.

Paul

Thank you, sir! I still have a LOT to learn!

Ed

These are original bullets from Sharps and Ballard. They don't look much like Postells

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Bullets/Sharps%20and%20Ballard%20Cartridges%20from%20Grant.pdf

Thank you, Paul.

Now I have questions for an exterior ballistics expert...PP, typical BP grease groove design, or mini-grooves...is there really enough difference in the different profiles to make a measurable difference in retained energy at long range to pick one over the other?

Questions. More and more questions. The more I learn, the more I understand how little I know.

Ed

When a grease groove and a patched bullet of relatively the same length and nose design are fired from the same rifle, generally the patched bullet will require several minutes less elevation than the grooved, and will also use about half the windage as a greaser.

Well, I'm hardly a ballistics expert, but this topic has been discussed at some length on the Shiloh forum, and those who have done a lot of long range shooting and testing claim that there is a difference. Long range match shooters are mostly concerned with accuracy, and that includes reducing errors due to the effects of wind. They claim that bullets like the Money and of course Brent's PP prolate are less sensitive to wind and require less wind correction and are therefore less susceptible to error. Intuitively, the absence of grease grooves would produce less wind resistance, all other things being equal.

How much practical difference does that make? Hard to say. Serious competitors tend to leave no stone unturned in their quest for greater accuracy and match points. There hasn't been a wholesale switch to paper patching, although it is coming on strong.

Funny story. At a silhouette match this past weekend, one shooter thought Brent's wads were blowing apart, when he saw the shredded paper patches exiting the muzzle like confetti. Couldn't believe a silhouette shooter would be shooting paper patched bullets.

Paul

EXcept when it does not.

For instance, a grease groove bullet with a reasonable BC of .50 takes on about 130" of wind in a 10 mph cross wind at 1000 yds and 1350 fps. A paper patch bullet with the same nose shape would have to have a BC WELL IN EXCESS OF DOUBLE that 0.5 value to have even sorta-maybe close to 1/2 the wind-induced drift. And believe me, they don't. Not even close.

Regardless of all the internet expert mantra out there, PPBs and groovers will shoot, for all practical purposes, just about exactly the same wind drift for a given nose shape and bullet weight and launch speed.

Counterintuitive?

Paul

Quite a selection of bullet shapes there, Brent!
Quite a few have flat points, while a few have an almost 1R profile, and others closer to the "money bullet" mentioned earlier.

Evidently, from the reading I've been doing, there are differences between the first "Postell" style bullets as cast in Ideal molds versus modern Lyman "Postell" style bullets.

There are a few more books I need to lay my hands on, one being the Single Shot Rifles book you have referenced.

Thanks again!

Ed

It might be counterintuitive. I do not like to trust to intuition on much of anything because it is so often wrong. But be that as it may, I am certain that the difference between grooved and ungrooved bullets is just about zero so far as wind is concerned. I am certain there is a SMALL difference, but so small as to be not measurable by even fairly sophisticated shooters.

Certainly, there is a large imaginary difference that has been claimed, but when you ask for the REAL numbers, you don't get anything you can take to the bank.

The certainty of shooting paper patched is that you will look better doing it, have more fun, experience less lead in the barrel, and attract a lot of attention on the line. I need to make up a few dummy rounds just for show and tell and to pass around. Everyone wants to check them out.

To clarify, you're saying that there's not much (if any) difference in exterior ballistics between the styles, all other things remaining constant? Or is there a definite, yet slight advantage to the PPB due to the more aerodynamic shape?

Is it just a Chevy vs. Ford thing?

Ed

I was typing (slowly) when you posted and answered my question.

Ed, the differences between nose shapes can be dramatic in some instances. But not so much in the Paper patch vs. groove thing. The paper will just look MUCH better and they will make you much happier, but they won't shoot a ton better.