Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's Horse/Rider training clinic

Hosted a "horse trainer" this past weekend. Amazing what one can learn from a good teacher. Both horses and more importantly the riders.

Two activities stuck with me- the change in attitude of the horse when laid down and the benefit of a good "patience" pole.

For us recreational riders a clinic or two is the best horse money spent on our hobby.

I will have to wholeheartedly agree Dan. I have attended several clinic's over the year's, and my life with horse's has improved significantly because of the help and direction I recieved.

Amen, Dan!

The fact that my horse trainer lets me live with her is a BIG plus!

Ed

Probably the clinics for the rider are more important than ones for the horse.

8 cornerstones of a well broke horse is the theme of his clinics. Way more to do with rider training - three days will help get a horse on the way, but won't if one does not know how to continue the process.

Those of you that use horses for real work are the envy of a novice like me. Doing something besides going in circles in an arena would speed the learning process up for sure.

I am talking about horsemanship not just riding down a trail.

I figure the clinic's I've attended were for both the rider and the horse. Dan, If you can where you are. Try the cutting or reined cowhorse. Especially the reined cowhorse. You WILL improve your riding skill'sand horsemanship, and have one heck of a good time.

Allison Trimbol is doing the "Great Alaska Horse Expo" this next weekend. I plan on giving ranch sorting and some of the cow work modules a go.

Often if not usually the riders upon receipt of said horse from trainer need more schooling than the horse.

There's nothing that can replace repetition and just going out and doing it. Often it is finding the time and will to do so.

Case in point. The wife has been working on a great mare. Now it was my turn to take her to the hills. As this horse seemed bored with arena stuff. I was tired and it was getting hot. But I'm sure glad I did. I put the time in and realized she's gonna be a good one. She "learned" me (the rider) that all I needed to do was my job so she could prove to me her worth. She's a country covering "chick" who loves to do just that, cover country. We put in a solid 8 miles in no time.

Here we are coming out of a watering hole before we head up higher into the hills.

Sometimes it's hard weeding out the entertainers and those who want to sell thier tack vs the ones who want to teach folks something.

Lots'a folks go to these things and then go home and wonder why it doesn't work tat home like the clinician did at the clinic.

However, if you connect with a good one, they are very helpful to young and old.

Thanks guys - I have been trying to get some pics up but not having much luck.

Nice looking ride Cocadori!

She's a good un! 16 HH and a puppy dog personality with a no quit attitude.

She might a mentioned something to me about seeing the last frontier... ;-)

Point her north & west - will have a place at thanksgiving dinner set for ya.

All the point's about clinicin's are true to one extent or another imho. However I have found that most have at least one or two thing's that are useful. As for the participant's, a lot of people seem to be looking for a magic bullet that's just not there, or they just do not have ability to convert information to actual practice.

Information overload really will detract from the learning experience.

You are right about people wanting a magic bullet to cure their or their horses problems. Once in a while the bullets do come along. There has been a dramatic improvement in one horses behavior since laying it down at the clinic.

It helps that the group that showed up for this clinic was familiar with the clinician and each other.

a

Here's a spin on it.

OK the "magic bullet" is it that or is it something else. Since all this horse whispering started ..what about 12-15 yrs ago.

You now have all these people re-inventing the wheel, this idea that idea, touchy feely this touchy feely that.

There are times when you need to "shut up and train the horse"

While I agree horse training has come a long way but only in the media. These idea's and methods have been around for a while there was just very mediocre ways of getting it out there. Introduce the internet and now it's out there instantly.

OK back to my point. What if perhaps to get a horse to respond or show a dramatic change is all you do is change your routine, change your method a bit. For example in athletic training both strength and endurance if you alter your typical regiment or routine you often notice a dramatic gain.

I've been around a lot of horse trainers and have been fortunate to have a mentor who knows many of "the" old timers and current trainers. One thing they will ALL tell you. Just go do it. You cannot replace the value of time spent. Also, you may be able to find a magic bullet every now and again. However, the effects of the bullet aren't permanent. Nothing is more frustrating after training a horse for someone only to have that phone call a few months later that the horse isn't acting or performing the way it was when you showed it to me. ..."Oh really when the last time you worked with it?" "Well, I rode it one or two days after you delivered it but I havn't had much time lately.. I guess its been 6 or 8 weeks."
Well ma'am our fee is still $$$ to train horses and re-training or refreshing the memory isn't any cheaper.
"Don't you still have the DVD we made you so you could continue to enforce the things we trained?" "Well yeah but I haven't had much TIME lately."

the way I see it. In the end the magic bullet recipe looks like this

Primer = Will to do it
Brass = Place to do it
Powder = The skills to do it/Knowing what to do
Bullet = Time and Repetition

wow.. this reply just evolved... hmmm need more coffee...

Like the bullet analogy...

Find a place to add "knowing what to do" and you covered all the bases.

Like to buy you a cup of coffee some day!

Fixed.... ;-)

Would very much enjoy a chat with you.

Truth be told. My wife is the one to chat with. She's got the "horse gene" I merely repeat and apply what she does. I'm constantly in awe of her abilities to communicate with these ponies.

In our relationship she's the trainer and I'm the mileage guy.

I've see enough trails and situations to know "what the pony needs" before it can be "tagged" a trail horse.

Funny how a lot of people think "oh it's just a trail horse" when in fact a true trail horse has much more than any "show horse"

I have always subscribed to the "little bit of training and a whole lot or ridng".

Funny how those little thing pop into place over time.

I do mules and the training, although like a horse, is done over time.A mule will usually pick something up when shown or asked 3-4 times and then there is little back sliding, but they so seem to want to ask why you want to do something and see no sense in running around in a round pen.

I have been at it since about 69-70 and still find little techniques that work on some animals and not on others.

There are several here that I would like to take a "clinic" from!

Thanks to all for the discussion and pointers.

+1



Sounds like my marriage as well

I too like your bullet theory, can I use it....of course giving the credit where it is do.

I agree time is an issue. What you said goes back to the old saying....Good horses are made with wet saddle blankets. And I believe a large percentage should be out there covering miles, nnot circles in an arena.

I got my 3YO mare with 30 days of basic training. Made sure she would listen, and headed out. 3 years and several hundered miles later, my daughter is starting to use her as a jumper. Willing, eager, great attitude and quick to pick up what is asked of her. If I just arena rode her I don't think it would have been nearly as good a horse for my daughter as she is now.

When we started:





Now:

I'm a big believer in consistency. If I introduce something to a horse, I go back the next day and hope it's still there. If not, I just keep at it on a daily basis until the horse has it. I don't think you want to ask too much of them. I give them something new and don't burn them out over it, but try to make it part of their foundation before the next bit.

With the big responsibility of getting your butt in and out of the back country alive. If one can do that under most adverse conditions I can tolerate them not being able to do a flying lead change.

Ha! I hear ya!

I guess on further reflection, ther is a so called "majic bullet", but it is not majic at all. It is called foundation, and for me the foundation is laid with ground work. And yes consistancy is the key all through a horse's useful life. Speaking of useful, it remind's of an interview I heard of Dick Gaines I believe it was, comparing a horse to a bucket of water, in that every time we inflict pain on a horse, we take a dip of water out of the bucket, and soon the horse has outlived it's useful life. Foundation, and lot's of wet saddle blanket's for sure, and compassion.

Afreakinmen!

LOl I went to a clinic last week, after one of my old broke horses bucked me off and broke 4 ribs and seperated my left shoulder. My fault I know the horse is cinchy. So I am on vacation till I heal up. 700 cows are kinda taking care of them selves lol.Ed

Never a matter of if.. just a matter of when...

True story, I guess thats why I can see the humor in it lol. I just don't bunce back like I did. Ed

I have never had a mule I raised and broke out buck with me.I probably haven't been bucked of for at least 15 years and have no intention of doing so now.

I hurt myself more when falling over my own two feet.

I have folks say, "hey,my mule is doing this or that, how about riding it". The answer is always no now.

I could have said that too till spring of last year. Let myself be hurried, and rode out on a gelding I raised from a baby. On the way back home we blew through a ditch, and the sun-of-a-gun bogged his head and me with waaay too much rein out.

Here are some pictures that DanH emailed to me to post. This is Badger and he was being laid down to make him more submissive. He is a good horse but has been a problem child at times.

I believe Mrs. DanH took the pics.

I'll let Dan fill in the blanks.













[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Ironbender/2012Horseclinic/IMG_2537.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Ironbender/2012Horseclinic/IMG_2534.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Ironbender/2012Horseclinic/IMG_2467.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/Ironbender/2012Horseclinic/IMG_2402.jpg[/img]

(not Badger)


This paint is one of mine taking a turn on the patience pole.

Disclaimer: we asked this horse with as little pressure as possible...

This horse has had a history of bucking people off - including myself. He was dropped off as a last chance (by the dog musher whom he was dropped off to). He can be really good, but when he decides not to do something it is nose down rear feet straight in the air.
My wife is more intuitive about horses and noticed some physical abnormalities. A blood test revealed an extreme deficiency in thiamine. His levels of thiamine were so low that his muscles were breaking down so he was in pain constantly.

After a couple of rounds of treatment the levels returned to normal and brewers yeast keeps the levels good. He is probably 100#'s heavier from what he was.

He will still have one bucking fit at the start - My youngest has his number and knows his signals. A couple of bucking circles to the right and one or two to the left. After that he turns into a real gentleman.

These pics were after a lunch break, he did already have his "buck" over with. The change since this has been remarkable. He has been ridden almost every day since then without so much as a hop. His ground manners were always very good, but the tension is gone from his demeanor.

The paint of ironbenders spent 6 hours feaking out about the reindeer while it grazed behind the arena, but the formal meeting was uneventful.

I would say laying one down is a last resort. If you sit on thier neck and not let them up for about 10-15 minutes, you should have establised who is in charge. They know if you're sitting on them, they're defenseless. It doesn't hurt them, just lets them know that you can do it.

I don't intend to speak for Dan, but I know *a lot* was tried with this horse, so it was sort of last ditch.

Is Badger a Little Peppy (Peppy San Badger) bred horse? If he is, being somewhere between 'cold backed' and plain old broncy would be somewhat expected. I ride cutters, and they are well known for bucking a bit. I had a gelding that was out of a little peppy mare I sold a few years back, he wasn't bad, but would crow hop a little, often even when working cattle if he wasn't ridden down enough.

Yes he is a peppy, rum squall, smart little lena, impressive (double neg on the tests).

The little broncy/ cold backed would be an understatement for his behavior.. Most of it people caused, not out of intention but out of lack of knowledge. (myself included in that group) Some horses are more laid back and suitable for beginners.

He is going to learn about ranch sorting and see how he does on an extreme cowboy course this weekend.

He may turn out better than I expected. More compassionate/understanding influences stayed my hand on his fate...

I was assuming so. I don't understand mixing Impressive (halter horse) blood with a cowhorse. That probably doesn't help things either, as they aren't particularly known for trainability. Worse than the bucking (I can handle a little of that), I don't like the way he sticks his nose out when the rider is pulling the inside rein. I have found it is really hard (maybe near impossible) to do much with a horse that instinctively doesn't want to give his head. In other words, if their first reaction to a pull is to stick their nose out, getting them to give their head and be supple is never going to happen, which means spending the time to train them will pretty much never pay off. Understand, this is based on an assumption from the picture, which may be not his typical reaction, I'm betting you know, though.

After many years of messing with horses (I grew up on a cattle farm) I won't mess with a horse that is a 'project'. They can turn out OK, but OK is kind of the best you can hope for. The worst with a somewhat 'mental' animal is ending up with them upside down with you on them, or getting a concussion from a head thrown into your chin. A playfully broncy horse, I have no problem with, one that loses control so bad they can hurt you by accident I don't need. I used to laugh when my gelding was cutting a calf and bucking. Too many good horses for me to waste my time with a project.

Also, I don't know your background, but I think some are inclined to believe where animals are involved that problems are people caused. Some of them are just knuckleheads, like some people. A beginner mixed with one of these is like giving a three year old a loaded handgun. Somebody is gonna get hurt! With one of these sometimes being compassionate will just lower your guard enough for a train wreck to happen.

Most all my riding now is related to training/competition in cutting, and the more I do the quicker I can pick out a horse I don't like, some of the natural tendencies (like the sticking out of the nose) are more trouble to fix than they are worth.

Jstevens.
I sure agree with you. A lot of ill manned animals are human caused,but there are ones that are just bad tempered.I quit messing with those kind years ago. In my younger days,I layed down a few rank mules. I made them useable,but not trust worthy.One always had to be on the look out for them.

Doesn't surprise me ironbender; looks like the turd was going over backwards on a couple of those shots.

As to impressive, personally i don't care for them and wouldn't have one(or anything thats bred to be a "halter horse"), but impressive was bred in the blue.

I'm really fond of the Little Peppys.

Once again I'll place my vote for the Peppy San Badger bred horse's. Really like the Paddy's Irish Whiskey line. Have a yearling filly by an own son of PIW and out of a Dock Bar mare that is one of the sweetest natured baby's we have ever had on the place. Maybe it's luck, but of the several PSB horse's I've been around, none of them have acted as described here. After a 5 year rest from showing, I took my 9 year old gelding (a grandson of PeppySanEspecial) to a reined cowhorse show. Despite everthing I put him through, he took it pretty well. Much better than his rider:) Incidently all my foal's are imprinted at birth, and it seem's to make all the difference later on.

Paddys Irish Whiskey was also one pretty horse.

He is one of the full brothers to Gray's Starlight, who was a noted sire of cutting/reining horses. 'Rooster' (Gallo del Ciello) was another full brother (Little Peppy x Doc's starlight), for some reason, they were better known as sires of reiners/working cow horses/reined cow horses.

Most of the Gray's Starlight's were quite pretty headed, nice horses to look at as well as being athletes.

Not all of the Little Peppy horses were broncs, but many were somewhat playful buckers. Get one with Little Peppy on both sides, or out of a Doc Quixote mare, better hang on, though. The reputation for being a little rough wasn't a myth.

I'm down to my last horse. She is a grand daughter of Little Peppy (By Lynx and Peppy), and out of a daughter of Leo's Question that was out of a Pat Star Jr mare. You'll wear your jeans out before you will ride her down for the day.

I watched Gray's Starlight show a bit. Gary use to say if he could just have one more (like Gray's Starlight). I know this sounds stupid but I didn't care for Rooster, he didn't want to cut.

I knew the Rooster's were used a lot for reiners, so I had to assume that they didn't work in the cutting pen as well.


The Leo's Question x Oklahoma Star bloodline cross was a pretty well known nick years ago, usually with a shot of Bert in the mix somewhere.

Pretty impresive knowledge Mr. Stevens. Indeed a lot of those Leo's Question mares did have some Bert in them. I really liked those horses, a lot of guys didn't want to put the time in with them but they suited me to a t. I rode a few of them (leos Question horses, mostly mares) and a couple of the Doc's Jack Sprat as well. I considered Mr. Wilkins one of the most astute horsemen I ever met. He could pretty well sum up a horse in the first couple of minutes. I felt honored to do some horse trading with him, as I very much respected his knowledge. Sounds to me you've been looking at good horses for some time

I don't want to harsh anybody's mellow and maybe the pictures didn't tell the story so I could understand it, but I've seen better technique for laying one down. Looked like a pretty fair rodeo.

The foundation mare that my 9 yr old gelding is out of trace's back to Bert through Puddin Head breeding.Also, the mare that had that sweet little filly I mentioned is by Freckles Mr Mack by Quixote Mac.

Back for the "Great Alaska Horse Expo". Badger did excellent ridden by my daughter and Three of the clinicians. Cattle work (ranch sorting) and being roped off of didn't rattle him .

Jstevens the horse with her nose out is not Badger, but my wifes horse ridden by a gent that had not ridden in 30 years. She was getting a little cranky with his rein work.

The laying down started out gentle with just the clinician doing it, but with the knee brace and broken arm he had me run the leg rope for him. We were pretty gentle - he would just bow then explode. His behavior this weekend was way beyond expectation.

Thanks to all who have lent their wisdom and opinions to this discussion!

I always liked the Doc's Jack Sprat horses myself, as I am in NW Mo., they were kind of in the neighborhood(E Ne) Some of the Wilkins' family are still around there, but I don't think they do much with horses though. My current show horse is out of a Smart Little Lena x Doc's Oak stud, out of my old mare which is a Colonel Freckles and her mother is out of real old lines, her grandmother is a half sister to Bert (out of the same mare), and by Pretty Boy (dam's sire of Poco Lena). She also has Plaudit back in her pedigree. He was a thoroughbred Kentucky Derby winner and the sire of Question Mark who I think was the dam's sire of Leo's Question. I grew up on a cow/calf operation, and we have had registered quarter horses for right at 55 years on our home place, the same year I was born. I can't remember at the moment what town in Nebraska the Wilkins' were from, having a brain fart, I guess. If I remember correctly, the Wilkins owned Leo's Question as well, so there were a lot of crosses on them, kind of like Bud Warren with Leo mares bred to Sugar Bars.

The blaze on her nose describes her nick name!

Ironbender you are thinking of my horse not this one....

Oops. Got a pic of that one?

I remembered a "better" blaze!

A leather cuff below the hock on the hind legs works pretty well. Can't use a rope there, it will burn the heck out of them. FWIW

I had a neoprene cuff in my back pocket in case it came to that.

I was "allowed" to go on a trail ride with my youngest and friend last night. Badger was outfitted in an english saddle so they could do some blowdown tree jumping. No trace of his former obstinate self. His jumping form is amusing - doesn't matter if the tree is 6" or 3' off the ground he still jumps the same height.

Laughter at simple pleasures in the woods is becoming too rare in this day and age.

I just ride around or have the horse step over trees - not up to the sky bombing they were doing.

Helps when one can ride in daylight till midnight.

To tie this back into the thread - it is amazing what someone with skill and patience can accomplish. Attending a clinic or getting mentored by a "master", learning should never cease.. Getting comfortable can cause stagnation. Not just in horses, but in what ever ones passion is.

It CAN do that, but not always a burn. Natives in Slana always laid horses down to shoe them. I did a small bunch of horses for a feller there one time and the village elder came by to watch - he'd never seen horses shod while standing!

Was the young one jumping bareback the way she raced him last weekend?

By the way I truly believe a horse can learn a valuable lesson by being "laid down."
The closer the timing is to the miscreant act, the better, but it can't always work out that way.

Mike
We used to shoe a string of 15 mules by laying them down with a bale between their legs. Saved a lot of time but it was hard to get used to nailing at that angle. Hard for me anyway.

The only time I've done horses sideways, was 2 BLM mustang mares each with a yearling. They came up from Nevada, IIRC, and hauled through swamp from the Haul Rd. by a horse that would not take "no" for an answer.

They were maxed out on dopey drugs and the mares still were able to toss their heads and run out of rope range.

Finally caught them, choked them down, sacked them, had the vet's tiny wife sit on their heads, and went to work.

That was an interesting day!

A bit off topic, but I castrated my now retired gelding, Shiloh, by lifting his hind feet off the ground with a come-along attached to a rope on his tail. Pretty much the same principle. Take away a horse's legs and you remove the flight instinct. The young trainer who starts my colts lays all his colts down on a bright blue tarp.

Ironbender where is Slana?

When one lifts a horse up by the tail do you secure the back feet? Lead us down the thought process of using a come-along for castration. Intriguing solutions come out of necessity - and may come in handy for others some day.

It's halfway between Tok and Glennallen on the Tok cutoff.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Dan, no you don't have to secure the back feet. If I can find it I will dig out a 25-year-old photo and post it. If a horse's hind feet are off the ground they don't struggle at all. I put Shiloh in an alley that had a six-foot gate and a guillotine style alley gate. Pulled the alley gate to the top and secured it. Fastened the come-along up there, secured a rope to the stub of the tail and lifted just enough to get the hind feet a few inches off the ground. I then opened the six-foot gate and had room to work. The nice thing is gravity is on your side, too. Ray Hunt taught this to my friend Charley Snell but it is an old method, probably been used for hundreds of years.

Thanks - may come in handy to know on a hard to shoe the back right hoof type.

no drugs for the horse? What percentage result in paralyzed tails?

I've never heard of any problems using this method but its not widely used. The horse keeps a lot of its weight on its front feet so there isn't as much stress on the tail as one might think.

Thanks for the reply John. Is the horse anesthetized at all for this, or do they have to just tough it out through the cutting?

I think i'll leave the castrating to the vet with the biggest bag o'drugs!


I like a round pen for an uncooperative horse to give a "choice" for shoeing.

Cutting Shiloh, 1987. Charley Snell on left, advising me. Shiloh, by the way, is a unique horse in that he is a line-bred descendent of U.S. Cavalry Remount horses that crossed with a Paint mustang mare producing a line of Paints that were high percentage TB. His bottom side includes Rocket Bar, Go Man Go, and Sabre Twist.

My father castrated horses for everyone around. No drugs. But he did cut according to the stage of the moon. My late partner Lynne Taylor cut thousands of mustangs for the BLM. Again, no drugs. Just be clean, be careful, be quick but precise and get the horse on clean pasture with exercise. Most knife men today use Ace to quiet the horse mostly for the strain of having his feet tied not because of the actual castrating.

Interesting mtrancher. I'm really surprised how quiet the horse seems. I think having Ray Hunt help your horsemenship is (was) about as good as it gets.

I've not seen nor heard of that method before. Quite interesting.

I should point out that by saying "no drugs" I am not saying one shouldn't use an antiseptic to clean the scrotum and the tools. "Miracle Water" is popular up here. It is a mixture of distilled water with Shaklee's Basic H, Basic G and a pinch of salt. Also, some will give the horse a shot of antibiotic but just as many don't.
Charley is the fellow I mentioned in the thread months ago when we were discussing saddles. Charley learned his horsemanship directly under Ray and his saddlemaking from Dale Harwood.

"Miracle water" can be used on many things. Cuts, abrasions, sores, bites, etc... The recipe is one tablespoon of Basic H, one tablespoon of Basic G and 2 tablespoons of sea salt in a gallon of distilled water.

We have had good luck using 1 tablespoon GSE (grapefruit seed extract) to a spray bottle filled with water to treat rain scald or other fungal/bacterial skin problems.

Cheaper than vetracyn...