Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters DOUBLE RIFLE U/O WINCHESTER GRAND EUROPEAN 7x57R

I own one of the above however, reloads will not regulate. As yet I have not found factory cartridges that will regulate to my satisfaction. Enquiries at our local shooting range indicates that this is common with the Grand European.
Can those with greater experience comment ?
My 7x57R is presently confined to the lockup until it performs. It has served 3 years of its sentence. One wonders if factory regulation was by a set-up jig instead of live firing.
Many combinations of projectiles and powders have been trailed along with optics and factory iron sights.
Being a bird gun shooter I purchased the Grand European because it was a perfect fit.

Man that sucks! Is the regulation adjustable? Have you tried different loads in each barrel? If it won't regulate with the same load in both barrels, maybe you can find a combination of loads that works well enough.

Yes I have tried from 110gr to 175gr. But not all the possible powder and primer combinations. I like to hunt large boars so I have to use the same load in each barrel. At times I have little time in a reload to place the correct load in its barrel.

More loads may find a suitable combination

Some questions:

Is the rifle scoped? Was it scoped when you bought it?

What sort of regulation are you hoping for?

Are the bullets from the two barrels shooting apart, or cross-firing? Are they in line vertically?

As you have heard at your local ranges, regulation issues are common with the Grand European. I would not give up hope though. IIRC, the Grand European was truly introduced for the European market, with a few trickling into the US. Given that, I would suggest that regulation was accomplished with one of the European brands of ammo - possibly Norma. Regulating a double with reloads can be an iffy proposition - and time consuming.

I would suggest, if you haven't already done so, to take a look over on the AR forums and see what can be found there, or pose the same question there. Lots of DR guys hang out on AR and they may be able to point you in the right direction.

Good shooting.

P.S. MD's questions are very pertinent. How the rifle currently regulates or shoots with your reloads, is indicative of what needs to be done.

Depending on what is to your satisfaction as far as regulation. The Winchesters just don't cut the mustard,from the get go. As a whole they just don't shoot very good, but can be regulated by several top gunsmiths. It could cost you $1000 + because they charge by time and ammo, no flat rates for that type of work. Or they may need to heat and resolder the barrels, if that can be done to a Winchester.

Myself for what you have invested in the gun and what it would cost to have a gunsmith regulate the gun. I would sell it and buy a double rifle that is proven regulated. Also I would like to shoot the gun before buying it, or have a written guarantee of regulation. That you would get a 100% refund if the gun didn't preform as guaranteed.

There are a multiple factors to consider with a double rifle, ammo that it was regulated to at the factory if it was. Regulated with iron sights or scoped. A double rifle is shot different than a single barrel gun, you shoot the first barrel then shoot the second barrel within several seconds. Because the heat from the first shot will warm up the second barrel changing regulation. You don't shoot a double rifle like a bench rest rifle resting the forearm on a sand bag, but grip the forearm resting your hand on the sand bag.

Go to Accurate Reloading Double Rifle Forum there's more knowledgeable gentleman there, than me that could help you.

Very partinent questions by MD to be answered. Generally Browning/Winchester doubles are regulated at 60meters, about 65 yards. To the contrary of what your shooting buddies say they are well done job.

Normaly for a double it's considered good if two shots stay in 6cm at the regulation range. Some of them can go far better than that. 4 cm is very good.
Browning /Winchester 7x57R can be zeroed from factory with Norma 156grs or ID classic (Tig) from RWS 175grs, i lean toward RWS.
Normally you get, with the double, a target with type of bullet and distance where the rifle is regulated. In some case regulation can be made specially for the customer with one special load.

Think you have better chance playing with different 175grs bullets, more blount than spitzer, at velocity around 730/750m/s.
Any scope or red dot sight on, can move the point of impact and the regulation.
Good luck

Dom

You mean it might not regulate with 120 or 130 grain foo-foo gadget bullets? Everybody knows those old-fashioned slow heavy 175 grainers won't kill anything and drop like a stone to the ground past 75 yards.



I guess somebody forgot to mention that to all those deer that hibernated in my freezers all winter.

Not exactly but not far from your saying. More seriously lot of chances, chamber is cut for longer 7mm bullets because it's what made their reputation everywhere and CIP chamber design is such.
The Tig (ID classic) reputation is perfect on most big game hunted in the world, even on cat and buff in bigger calibers. Expensive, old design, very classic but efficient bullet on boars and stags.

Dom

I had one in 30-06 and with the factory irons and factory 180gr ammo it would do about 5" at 100yds. Not great but was a nicely made rifle. How much of that was my shooting I don't know as a pop can is about the biggest thing I can hit at 100 yds.

The answer is a resounding...NO! usually...

These guns are not soldered together like conventional double rifles or combination guns and are notorious for being out of regulation and nearly impossible to regulate. I hate to say this, but they are what they are, and there is a reason then don't command high prices.


A real master gunsmith might be able to fiddle with the barrel crowns, like what was done with the Sabattis to get them on the paper, but it isn't all that desirable a way to bring them together. Done wrong, and you have nearly ruined the gun.

Also, there are a few, very few, who can work with the silver soldered jig regulated barrels and get them shooting, but it will be costly.

I have owned a couple of the Grand European combination guns in 7x57 and 9.3x74R under 12 gauge and an O/U double rifle in 9.3x74R. None of the rifles were good shooters, 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards were the norm, even when I mounted scopes. I have read that the barrels weren't well regulated when new. The 9.3x74R tended to shoot the top barrel about 2" high at 10 o'clock and the bottom barrel about 2" low at 5 o'clock with most 286 grain factory loads. Not great, but consistant enough that you could compensate.

At 1 time, I thought that the 2 Grand Europeans in 9.3x74R would be useful if I ever went back to Africa, but I look at them more as novelties than as serious hunting weapons. For the price, you'd expect better outcomes than the sort of poor performance that you get from the much less expensive Russian Baikal IZH-94s.

Jeff

Thanks for all your comments. I have tried factory sights and scope. These were 1-4 x20 Leopold and a 4x32 Kahles 1'' tube. I have owned a number English doubles in both Nitro and BP. I have only had one gunsmith regulation job . It was successful. I have a large variety of RWS and other specialised top quality projectiles to continue load development.
For an off the shoulder double about a 2 1/2'' both barrels at around 60yds would be acceptable. Good enough to get the vitals. After all these a stalking hunting doubles.

FWIW....I have found that my O/U .30-06 (a Rizzini 90L) shoots better - regulation is better - with the factory iron sights. With a scope, it will shoot the first shot right to POA. The second shot, however, is always a few inches higher and left. The irons give me two shots within a couple of inches of each other at 100 yards. It likes 180s at 2700 fps.
The point is....the iron sights gave me better and more consistent grouping than the scope.
Pete

Finally, I have confirmed Winchester Grand European U/O double rifles were NOT test fired to check regulation. They were regulated during the manufacturing process to a predetermined set of specifications. Consequently, a short cut that did not generally work.

A really pretty gun that doesn't shoot good. Well, they got it half right.

5 month old post I know but I have this gun in .257 and my understanding is that they weren't regulated by a gunsmith but they were test fired at the factory as they did come with a factory regulation target.

I have a Beretta 9.3X74 O/U double rifle that wouldn't group tighter than 6 or 7 inches at 50 yards. I tried dang near every thing to get the barrels to regulate and finally sent it to J J Perodeau at Champlain Firearms. He fixed a problem with one of the claw mount bases that was incorrectly installed and regulated the barrels to shoot in a couple of inches at 100 yards with the factory load I sent him. The work was first quality. I could not tell the barrels had been apart. I did it several years ago and thought the price was very reasonable for the work done. He quoted me a price for the regulation and stuck with it. I would do it again tomorrow if I had a double that wasn't regulated.

I saw a Beretta 9,3X74R O/U come right out of the box, test target and all. The target looked great!

There was one small problem. The gun had been assembled with barrels that never saw a finish reamer.

They wouldn't chamber ammo. Beretta was very silent, as they replaced the gun for the new owner.

For anyone who doubts this, I was at Lee LeBas' shop when he received the new gun and was supposed to scope it. Ask him what he saw.

This. JJ gets about 700 bucks for re-regulation plus forty rounds of ammo. Select the ammo you want to use, send him the rifle, ammo and a check and he'll deliver.