Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Why cant people shoot????

[quote]I cannot fathom how anyone who would want a job as a peace officer would show up for training and have never touched a firearm of any type.
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It follows the way some people think of guns as evil almost like they could be killed just by being in the room with one locked in the cabinet. That some would assume if you buy a good enough gun it will do its job all by itself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

First let me clear one thing up, Stetson, the guy that whack his melon, was not a client, but just a friend that wanted some meat, so I took him. He didnt have a rifle, because of a nasty divorce, so he took mine. He is NOT a client, and was not paying, I was not bashing him. I was not bashing anyone. It just amazes me, that people pay money, then dont bother to learn to shoot. It dont really matter to me, its just discouraging to work your Azz off to get someone on a really big animal, and he misses 7 times starting at 30 yards. 4 of the shots, the deer was standing broadside with his nose up a does hinney. Bashing no, disgusted yes. But like I said, it just isnt that hard to me to shoot and hit something. But I guess I take for granted how much we on this board do get to shoot. This thread wasnt ment to bash. Sorry if I rubbed your azz the wrong way,

Toby Joe

CC
The situation has been expanded here a few times and written up in at least one bow-hunting magazine. Thumbnail; Randy Ulmer, a serious bowhunter hired Tony Russ, sheep author and holder of the P&Y record dall. Tony could not perform at Randy's level and when Randy insisted they try to stalk a particular sheep Tony took off.

Randy was able to kill the sheep and return later to retrieve it. That involved finding his way back out of the area and then in.

Tony stumbled into an incredible sheep and wrote a couple books. The books have some special moments in them. In his bear book he cautions hunters not to use mauser rifles because they jam. He has work ethic related issues with the other guides he has worked with and many clients have complained along the same lines.

A search would get you more of the details.
art

Here ya go....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.tonyruss.com/

have missed game totally(buck fever) have made a couple bragging shots,but i think im average as a gameshot.i won't try and kill something out of MY range.I shoot more pistol than anything else and if your a cop whose dedicated and practicies and the following offends you i'm sorry,but some yall police can't hit a B27 at 15 yards.being a Fat white guy i love seeing "Mr. Combat Ninja&buddys" at the range"oh? yall pointshoot? latest Tactical heartbreaker lifetaker techinique huh? them sunglasses look cool at night,matches them Black gearbags&holsters...Didn't i read Mas Ayoob&Clint Smith say actually Hitting the target is a good thing?" after i hear how they "learned this in the Military" i simply say closest to center gets a Coke bought by the loser wanna shoot? yall read above where i said i was Fat right? i reckon yall can figure the results(pun intended.)

FWIW there are ranges all over the country that hold highpower matches. Scoped rifles are now welcome at all. But have to be able to fire 10 rounds rapid fire. IE one might have to buy and AR and put a scope on it(cheapest way). Most clubs shoot at least once a month. ITs a great way to get coached for free. Most all Highpower shooters go out of their way to help.

My nephew used to just blast away. Took him under my wing, got him an AR, and he has shot iron sights to 600 yards now. We have not shot as much as we should, but it only took him that amount of shooting to become more proficient.

To me if you can't take the time and money to shoot at least once a month, don't waste the rest of the time and money.

And with highpower -- it doesn't have to be about winning. Lots of folks just like to get trigger time and it gives them that. You'd be surprised how much easier shots become once you practice.

As a kid I would not shoot at a doe (we wanted meat) at about 250 yards because I couldn't hold still enough. My mentor shot it with a 6mm. I was amazed. I was still capable of missing deer at 75 yards if I didnt' have some type of rest. And a sling was only used to carry the gun to the stands...

Years later, and much highpower, a 300 yard shot is a chip shot. As easy as a 25 yard shot used to be.....

Apply yourselves or get lost... IMHO. Its owed to everyone including the game. There is always fishing. If the fish don't bite or you don't hook em, no one is harmed.....(that I can see) Much better than an errant gut shot.....

Jeff

Tango mike, Sitka.

One factor I'd suggest from the client side -- when you're trying to settle down for a shot, it isn't helpful to have the guide saying "shoot, shoot, SHOOT!" all the time.

I've had that a couple times -- once with both the guide and my hunting partner giving me the helpful advice. Naturally I missed on that one.

John

John
I understand your point, but can you imagine how many times critters do not get shot at because the hunter took too long? I cannot tell you how frustrating that is.

I literally had a guy that took over 20 minutes to find a caribou in the scope and pull the trigger. He shot over his back at a little over 100 yards with a 7RM, "...Because he was so far away." Try being patient for 20 minutes. I ended up forcibly dialing his scope down to 3x and dared him to adjust it.

He ended up with the caribou and it is in the top 100 All-Time in B&C... ACtually there are some other elements that rate telling. After missing we chased the 'bou over a ridge. He had been fighting another, virtually equal bull while he was trying to find him in his scope.

We crawled over the lip of the hill and 4 caribou rose; a cow with calf, a young bull and the monster that had to rock his head back and forth to get up.

I whispered "There's your bull!"
"Which one?"

I swear that was the question with those options in front of him.
art

John-you're absolutely right, IMO the guide gets the hunter into position, and then tells the hunter when he is ready to take the shot. Sometimes a bit of a sense of urgency is needed but usually it is the time for the guide to be the cooler and the calmer.

When I am guiding I will not give him the old shoot shoot trick, for the most part this is a recipe for a bad deal. Most guys will get flustered under this kind of pressure. And the kind of guys that won't get flustered under that kind of pressure normally already have the critter down and dead!

Like I said b4 a good guide has to know what his client can and can't do and put him a situation where he can succeed.

Many times I found it best to get him/her into position and then say let me know right b4 you're gonna shoot.

Mark D

"which one"

Man that is hilarious hahahaha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On a side John-if'n I did ever had a guide that did the old shoot shoot. When I had the time and when it was the correct time I would politely (well maybe not) tell him to be quiet and that I would make it happen when I was ready.

If, he did it again I would most likely drop my gloves to the ice and bitch slap him into the next century!!!

After he came to he would most likely have the hint!

Mark D

TobyJoe,
lighten up! I think maybe you got your horns in a general twist at the moment. PLEASE go back and read where I said I didn't want to ruffle any feathers as well as the sentence where I started with "seriously". This implies I was joking. If this guy paid or or not it was still pretty darn funny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> However I definately think you were giving him a pretty good kick in the backside and maybe he deserved it. It looks like you had a lot of bad clients this year. I think we all agree that a lot of guys can't shoot for sh** some days, including myself.
PS, My wife took great exception to you rubbing my azz! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

A-men to this

Mark,

That is exactly what I'd hope for. Get me in position, make sure I'm looking at the right critter, maybe tell me "better shoot fast or he'll get behind that rock" and then let me do my part. At that point, a reasonable hunter would know it's all up to him. (Yes, I know that doesn't describe every client.)

Maybe my mind plays tricks on me, but on the elk hunt I was mentioning, I seem to have some memory of my guide and partner jumping up and down in my peripheral vision.

The guide was a pretty big guy -- maybe I missed because the ground was shaking.

Anyway, it turned out fine -- a clean miss that time, and the next day I asked him to hang back while I crawled within 40 yards of a different bull. The antlers are on the wall behind me now.

John

The cheapest part of the hunt, and the one that has possibly the greatest amount of impact on the "impact" is ammunition. We buy a rifle for $800 and a scope for $400 and mounts and a sling, and a case, and goretex, cammo clothing and boots, and a $30,000 vehicle and a $8000 ATV and a licence, and then try to cut costs on ammo.

I have been hunting with an old work buddy the last week or so. The guy is a good hunter, but he won't practice. I load his ammo for him, and I do it at cost 'cause we're friends. I loaded him 50 rounds about 10 years ago, and he has 15 left.

This last week, he has missed two nice cow moose. One because he undersestimated the range, and would not listen to me when I told him to shoot his rifle in three and a half high at 100. The other because he took a jerk out hunting with him -- not me, the one behind the trigger.

My 17 year old daughter told him he needs to go to the shootist's accuracy school. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hitting a pie plate at 100 yards is not accuracy with modern hunting rifles with scopes.

A real problem I see when watching guys shoot is their trigger control. They crank the trigger, and MAKE the shot break, instead of pressing the trigger, and allowing the shot to break.

And I agree with the poster that said women shoot better than men because they listen, and don't have to be John Wayne.

People need to develop confidence in the rifle and ammo -- that is done on the bench, at known ranges.

People need to develop familiarity with their rifle - dry firing is good, and just shouldering and pointing at stuff is good as well.

Practice with the ammunition you hunt with -- mostly. And shoot smart, not lots. Shooting lots can reinforce a bad habit. Practice with someone who knows how to read a target.

At least, that's what I do.

The thing that floors me about this thread is the number of misses people will tolerate and still hunt with someone. Everyone misses. I'm not perfect. But, if anyone I'm "guiding" ever misses 2 in a row, we're done until the problem (whether equipment or skill related) is diagnosed and the problem solved. Fortunately, it's never happened to me.

Maybe that's a dilemma for a compenstated guide, but it shouldn't be if the rules are clear up front.

There is "guiding" and there is hunting with someone. When hunting with someone you can handle it however you see fit. When "guiding" you need to be able to work it out. And yep the guide is the compensated one.

Now some outfitters out there make it clear up front if you wound a animal then that is your animal and your hunt is over and done if you do not want to continue to finish it. And yeah the concept does get a bit controversial.

Mark D

I get the impression it was a novice shooter using a strange rifle that wasn't set up for him...lop OK ...could he see thru the scope OK....and I bet that 257 STW has a real "bark" to it.

I can see how, without a couple of shots to get used to it, that someone could miss.

I have never been a guide and readily admit I don't have the skills. I belong to a club which has shooting positions for 50, 100, 200 & 300 yards. Every fall we have a couple of public shooting days when non-members can pay a fee and use our facilities. We provide the targets, range officers and helpers for those who need it.

Without an actual count I estimate at least 40% to 50% of the guests need help. Getting them started required us to finally make up a portable target stand that we could set up at 25 yards so they could get on paper.

Some, usually the younger ones, would accept advice gratefully. Once they reach 40 or so they seem to think they know everything they need to. I have been known to comment after some of these "shooters" have left "I'm glad I will not be hunting in the same woods as these guys."

I do not convey this message to the people involved because it is apparent they do not want to learn. This is one of the reasons that I have, for about 35 years flown in for my hunts. I know only my companions and myself will be there and because they are long time friends I know what they are capable of. I also know they will not be taking a random shot in my direction.

Years ago I took an acquaintance from a club I belonge to along on an antelope hunt in Wyoming. It took 6 days of patient effort to get this guy to try a shot. He was finally told we leave in the next 2 hours to go deer hunting and if you haven't tried for an antelope by then you are out of luck. A dumb buck wandered within about 150 yards and the guy reluctantly tried the shot. He missed but the backup (by you know who) dropped the animal. To this day he still thinks he made the killing shot. (I knew whose shot killed the animal because of the type of bullet we recovered when we cleaned it.) Strangely enough at the next ranch he turned in a fine performance on mulies. Go figure. Maybe he needed confidence.