Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting GMX, XP3, E-tip, TTSX? What experience have you had?

I do enjoy the tracking part. I honestly and freely admit that. But your statement makes it sound like I desire for them to run a long ways and have a lingering death. Nothing is farther from the truth. But I don't need a bang flop to be able to locate them.

And I certainly still refuse to waste meat by shooting more frangible bullets.

My choice there. And my choice has been 100% reliable so far. Cup and core bullets have never been 100% reliable.

As I've noted I did a lot of taxidermy years ago, guess which bullets I never found? Mono. Which ones did I find in pieces, cores seperated, stopped by little things like the neck... cup and core...

Mine isn't that I have the desire to shoot mono for any reason, only that a lot of years, seeing well over 1000 animals harvested and watching the results and coming to an educated conclusion.

Regards, Jeff

I have never had a single cup and core fail to expand and never had one not kill pretty darn quick when I did my job.
What sorts of failures have you had?

06, 165 sierra game king. Punched a rib going in. Rib going out. Both 30 cal holes. Through both lungs. Was killed 3 weeks or so later with a neck shot so we could see what the deal was because we searched for about 6-7 hours for that cull.

The others I"ve noted, one a partition 180 out of a 300 mag, stopped by the neck in a 200 pound buck. Mind you stopped AGAINST the neck and I had to kill him with my knife rather than shoot him again(my choice). When you stop a bullet by a puny neck, its amazing.

From the taxidermy side I've skinned out probably 5-7 or so more necks that had stopped a bullet. Mostly were in the 308-06 type calibers and most of those were corelokts.

Failure, well, it can depend, but yes all the deer were dead, whether today or 3 weeks later in the one case.

But it has to lead you right back to why I went to mono. I simply desire something that will leave an exit hole. And if a bullet can't make it through a deers puny(remember ours ain't the size of yours by any means) neck, then its simply not producing confidence to break both shoulders, or penetrate totally from an angle etc...

The last example... 7 mag, 160 sierra game king, 125ish yards, 60 pound piggy.... walking dead away from me and I"m trying to get a good line on the line of piggies for penetration issues... IE more than one with one shot... so I have to go high on the back one... back of head, in the neck basically.. Bang and one flop. 160 was cup and core seperated right there. Flat amazed me. No exit would. Just stopped.

And trust me if you told me this was possible, I'd have called you a liar before I'd seen enough with my own eyes.

And I've yet to see a mono failure, though there are examples out there, Klik and Brad both have them, I've yet to see a single one, or loose any animal.

In fact in a 6.8 necked to 6mm that I run, I shoot tsx not tipped 85s... I've had those dinky bullets run stem to stern more than a few times, never caught one, never lost any animal with them either. One we had to blood trail a ways, but not that big of a deal as there was a blood trail the whole way. She was pumped on adrenalin a bit when I shot her facing me....explains 125ish yard trail.

Not that cup and core don't work, I simply don't trust them for a be all do all any more. And probably never will.

Does not mean I dont' use them when it doesn't matter, IE I can pick my shots or pass the shots. In fact I've put down a few deer or more with the target 185 berger from my 308, but those are pick and choose bullets and I have yet to hit anything other than skull or rib bones at this point.

Jeff

So you had one bullet fail to expand and several other do some weird stuff, but not fail?
A cup and core losing its core is not a failure. For instance I shot a elk this year with a 180gr BT with a impact velocity of 3300+fps. The hole going in was the size of my fist(literaly), broke shoulder, penetrated lungs totally destroying both, and went through the muscle off the off side shoulder and was found under the hide, with just a smattering of lead left in the jacket. The jacket weighed over 100 grs IIRC. the blood ran out the side of that elk like a garden hose, but tracking wasnt needed, because it never took a step. Was this a bullet failure?

Like I know from you, you won't budge or admit or meet in the middle. Thats a given.

But if bullets seperate and stop on a puny neck, mind you thats THIS side of the neck, not after going through the bone, then I just flat won't risk that bullet. Who says it'll be enough to break a shoulder or a hip at some point.

I owe it to the game I shoot to take the least amount of chances.

The one deer that was lost for 3 weeks also made more than a few folks on that deer lease rethink did they miss a few deer along the way or was it due to a bullet failure they never knew about? Made many go to barnes, and the rest go to at least bonded.

IMHO, and you and I are both allowed to have our versions of that, when you have a better tool available just in case, I'm going to use it just in case. For I well know mr murphy. Why not? Certainly not cost or accuracy. Even if they are a buck a piece, monos are not target bullets. And how many of the things do you shoot a year? I run others for practice when thats deemed needed. But for me, and I take 3-5 or so deer a year depending, thats maybe 2-5 shots to verify zero( or not) and one bullet per deer. 10 bucks max won't break my bank. And is mild cost wise considering one has over 1000 bucks easily in a deer rifle...

just my take on it.

Regards, Jeff

Oh yeah, and my instances are not even elk, but small whitetails. If cup and core can't even penetrate the neck vertabrae on a whitetail, why would I risk same on an animal thats tougher and much larger?

I think you would agree that the 180 partition is kind of the gold standard in 30 cal premium bullets with a track record that spans decades. Barnes hasnt got a decade out of any of its versions and even the latest ones have had failures.
BTW I still use TSX's for certain applications, like my 6mm remington and 25-06AI. Though I switched the AI over to TTSX's. They do dig.

From what I've been told the 180 partition is much more frangible than the 200 partition in 30 cal and thats where my mistake in picking a partition came in.

No need to worry, that was my "elk" load if I ever had the privilege and when a 200 pound WT stops it in his neck... we found a MUCH better solution.

Until I see the mono failures with my own eyes, I'll just truck right along like you have done! We've each had great results.

All partitions are designed such that the front half is frangible. This is why they kill fast and dont suffer from the Barnes Rodeo Syndrome. They also penetrate very similar to a Barnes. because the resulting slug after the front core is blown off has a pretty small frontal area. My dad has shot a pile of animals with them and has only ever recovered a few as they most always blow through.
I prefer the BT to the partition as they are even more frangible,kill quicker, are more accurate in general. If you pick the right one the jacket is very stout and is a large percentage of the bullets final weight so they dig pretty deep too.
As I alluded to before, arbitrary "wish lists" like two holes, 100% weight retention, etc are BS. Berger VLD retain very little weight and many times dont shoot through, but they kill like lightning. BT's are a little less explosive than VLD's, penetrate better and kill very well.

One other point. Why do you suppose Barnes devotes recommend shooting for bone or using a lighter bullet to raise impact velocity? Maybe because the generate a pretty small wound channel with out such tricks?

I'm a barnes devotee and actually can't recall shooting bone in a LONG time. Never made a difference.

I shoot barnes in my SLOW guns too and have never had an issue.

As to Bergers coming apart, I've yet to not have an exit on them either. And I"ve got some pretty nice looking ones expanded and probably retaining around 75% or so of weight from some 800ish yard shooting a few years back into dirt backstop. As to killing like lightning, the bergers that is, I"ve yet to have a bang flop with one at all. Other than cranial shots. Still doesn't matter, for what I use them for, they have worked ok so far.

as far as wish lists, they 2 holes and 100% may be BS to you, but we don't all play by your rules thankfully. You run yours, I run mine, we both are probably batting 100%( I know I am when it comes to monos)

While on the topic, my nephew is still looking for the grail bullet... one that goes in just far enough, then basically explodes and bounces around inside the animal until depleted.
Of course he'll never find that. And his family is the one that continually calls me when they shoot at a deer and it runs off. Seems they have issues following blood trails sometimes. and if its not a bang flop, they have a hard time. They also try to be the double shoulder bone family too, and generally throw away both front shoulders of the deer they shoot. Which is really a shame to waste meat if they actually would calm down a bit and place the bullet where it'll kill and not destroy much meat at the same time.

While I don�t get to hunt nearly as much as some folks here, maybe/probably even most, I have been going for elk and deer since I moved here to Colorado in 1982. During that time I�ve only missed going elk hunting one or two years, hunted deer when I could get licenses (i.e. not quite as often) and have hunted antelope here and in Wyoming since the late 1990�s. More than a few coyotes and a lot of prairie dogs have dropped to my hunting rifles as well, mostly the 7mm Rem Mag and .257 Roberts, plus I�ve seen quite a few game animals shot by other hunters.

Some things I�ve learned over that time:

1. Shots don�t always go as planned.

2. Even with well placed shots, animals don�t always drop straight down and you may not see any clear indication of a hit. If the animal walks or runs away and you subscribe to the �shoot until they are down� philosophy, as I do, you may find yourself with a bad angle and have to take what is given or risk losing a wounded animal.

Given Murphy�s proven willingness and ability to intrude in my life, I prefer a bullet that will perform well under as wide a range of circumstances as practical. While there are some premium bullets I don�t care for, the ones I currently use seem to work as well as cup-and-cores at low velocity and I trust them more at high velocity.



The F150 above is semi-retired and is basically my hunting truck. Between it and the camper trailer I�ve spent over $1200 on tires in the last couple years, never mind other maintenance ($$$) and insurance ($$$) or the many thousands ($$,$$$) I have tied up in the rig that could be invested elsewhere. Fuel costs for the elk hunt were over $500 for each of the last two years. The bill for ice and dry ice came to around $150 for last year�s antelope hunt, another $150 or so for licenses and over $300 for fuel. Colorado and Wyoming license costs will run me just under $300 this year and food costs will be about the same. Processing fees ran over $600 last year.

For me, the extra cost of premium bullets for hunting barely registers when compared to other costs that are orders of magnitude greater. It sure isn't something I worry about.

Price has never been an issue for me as its miniscule in the scheme of things as you point out.

Well said Coyote Hunter...you've got it figured out and stated your case perfectly.

My personal philosophy has been: I don't want a bullet that works when things are perfect (that does not always happen!), I want a bullet that works when things go bad.. this is not a ground breaking statement for sure...but it's the truth.

Another truisim for me is Old Man Murphy will intrude in our life for sure, as you stated....The $64,000 question is when it will be? I can tell you it won't be when you are shooting at that little ol cow....not normally. It will be when you have that 340-350 bull in your crosshairs.

Unless you own your own ranch, the very cheapest hunt for us folks from east of the Mississippi will be, oh, about $1500 when you factor in all the costs, and it sure as hell goes up from there! Sorry to sound so stinking cliche' but what is one more $2.00 bullet when you have all that $ tied up in the hunt? I apologize for spouting off a fact that has been beaten to death, but again, its true.

Coyote and Godogs think along my lines.

And BWalker has evidently had total success his path.

No wrong any which way there, other than some of us prepare for the inevitable, and others chug along.

Jeff

GMX .243 80 grain all the way...

Saw a kudu stop a game king from a 338wm in his neck. Thought that wad pretty impressive, for the bull, not the bulleecovered a gameking on a heart [bleep] cow elk from 60 yardS

Not too keen on GK's for elk...they do tend to shed their core a lot in my opinion. As a matter of fact I have seen the majority shed their core on the deer I've shot too.

I personally witnessed my elk hunting partner drop a nice 6x6 with GK's a few years ago...the only thing about it was it took seven (7) hits to do it. The bullets splattering on the hide of the elk and on the shoulder (from a 338 no less) were not pretty to see. Up until that point, I had been telling him/kidding with him, to switch to Partitions or my personal favorite, TBBC's, to no avail. As we were admiring his bull and the gutting process started on this thoroughly ventilated bull, he looked at me and said "Would you be so kind as to suggest some starting loads for a Partition? I would appreciate it..."

We got him fixed up now and the difference is pretty apparent...

That�s not a good recommendation for Game Kings!

People say the choice of bullets can�t make up for bad placement. This sounds like pretty good placement and that a different bullet, like a Partition, would have made a world of difference.

I have used both the TSX and Partitions, in 7mm and 308 caliber. I have one rifle that shoots the TSX in dime sized 100 yard groups and the PT barley at an inch. I have killed two elk with the TSX, in that rifle. While both were killed I did not get the result on the second one I needed to take my second animal. I am now using the PT in that rifle even though its not a dime sized shooter. I have seen the results of over 100 elk killed with the PT. I like the PT

I've killed 5 animals with it including 2 elk - all 5 kills were double lung hits. They create diameter sized entrance and exit holes with no blood trail. Each elk and mule deer kill required extended tracking. I like my lungs scrambled; GMX doesn't do it.