Looking at using GMX, E-tip, XP3, TTSX or similar for elk and deer this year. I know there are tons of other bullet options that are proven to be great like the Partition and Accubonds(used last year). Hear this type of bullet penetrates well and lessens bloodshot. Wondering if any of these are better than the others?

Thanks

Seen and/or put to use TSX, TTSX and XP3. Not impressed with the reactions or speed of death on any of them on elk. Seen or used: 270 WSM 130 TSX, 264 Win 120 TTSX, .30-06 180 XP3, .300 Win 168 TSX.

Not much bloodshot though and through and through penetrations.

I don't believe weight retention and penetration is everything though

What was shot placement? Do you think that the slowed expansion and through and through penetration did a poor job delivering energy to the elk? In you experience what bullet delivered the best results consistently?

First elk with a TSX was the 270 WSM, first shot was a little bit low, hitting it in the "elbow", when I finished him off, took what felt like 5 to 10 minutes with a lung shot to actually die from about 5 yards away. Shot in the neck to speed things up, but apparently missed bone, didn't seem to help, so I quit shooting and let him die.

Next was a cow at about 200 yards from a 300 Win Mag and 168 TSX that a buddy shot through the lungs, no reaction, I dropped her with the 264 and 140 Partitions.

Next elk was a cow and calf pair. A buddy shot the cow in the lungs, no reaction with 180 XP3 from 30-06 from about 50 yards, it ran about 50 yards til I shot it with a 264 Win Mag and 140 Partitions, stopping it and staggering it, then shot it again, dropping it. Calf was then shot by another buddy with a 180 MRX (thought it was an XP3 before, sorry) also from a .30-06. It just stood there next to dead momma for a minute or two and was shot again. One bullet recovered that went from the shoulder to the femur, first bullet went through.

Next was a bull that I shot with the 264, 120 TTSX quartering away at 100 yards, broke the off shoulder. No reaction. Next shot was quartering towards, breaking the on shoulder, no reaction. Third shot I hurried too much but accidentally broke the fore leg, dropping him.

Prob my last usage of the monolithic bullets. Just not impressed with them. I prefer Partitions and Accubonds as a better blend of penetration and fragmentation. Elk and deer seem to shrug them off less for whatever that's worth. But I also use Ballistic Tips heavily on deer and antelope and they don't go far, if anywhere, plus there seems to be more audible and visual confirmation of a hit.

First elk with a TSX was the 270 WSM, first shot was a little bit low, hitting it in the "elbow", when I finished him off, took what felt like 5 to 10 minutes with a lung shot to actually die from about 5 yards away. Shot in the neck to speed things up, but apparently missed bone, didn't seem to help, so I quit shooting and let him die.

Next was a cow at about 200 yards from a 300 Win Mag and 168 TSX that a buddy shot through the lungs, no reaction, I dropped her with the 264 and 140 Partitions.

Next elk was a cow and calf pair. A buddy shot the cow in the lungs, no reaction with 180 XP3 from 30-06 from about 50 yards, it ran about 50 yards til I shot it with a 264 Win Mag and 140 Partitions, stopping it and staggering it, then shot it again, dropping it. Calf was then shot by another buddy with a 180 MRX (thought it was an XP3 before, sorry) also from a .30-06. It just stood there next to dead momma for a minute or two and was shot again. One bullet recovered that went from the shoulder to the femur, first bullet went through the lungs.

Next was a bull that I shot with the 264, 120 TTSX quartering away at 100 yards, broke the off shoulder. No reaction. Next shot was quartering towards, breaking the on shoulder, no reaction. Third shot I hurried too much but accidentally broke the fore leg, dropping him.

Prob my last usage of the monolithic bullets. Just not impressed with them. I prefer Partitions and Accubonds as a better blend of penetration and fragmentation. Elk and deer seem to shrug them off less for whatever that's worth. But I also use Ballistic Tips heavily on deer and antelope and they don't go far, if anywhere, plus there seems to be more audible and visual confirmation of a hit.

You know of course,everyone of the bullets you mentioned will kill Elk as well as the cheaper,less expensive...

Our ancestors only wished for the bullets of today!


Jayco

I know Partitions are well known for a good mix of expansion and penetration. I used 165 grain Accubonds last year for the first time on a deer at 230ish yards from a 308. It did give a good audible confirmation. The deer was laying and I delivered one broadside shot into the heart and lungs, broke off side shoulder/leg but did not exit. The buck never stood up, seemed to almost have died upon impact as I do not recall motion at at all. But I was a bit concerned that the bullet did not exit and the entrance was small, though the bullet did do what was intended. What is your experience with Accubonds? What would be your personal suggestion for elk? deer?

Thanks

My experience with those bullets (and similar ones, such as the Fail Safe) is pretty similar, not just on elk but similar-sized game. If they hit heart/2lungs they kill OK, but outside of that perfect broadside shot they kill slower. They do penetrate, though.

The bullets I have experience with include the Nosler E-Tip, Winchester XP3, and all the versions of the Barnes X, from the original to the TTSX, mostly in .30 caliber.

The XP3 can penetrate less than the others, due to the rear core expanding on impact, much like the rear of a Swift A-Frame. This depends on impact velocity.

These days I tend to choose such bullets more for smaller animals I like to eat, such as pronghorns and doe deer, since they kill pretty well and shred less meat.

I am aware that cup and core bullets will do the job. I am merely trying to get the best advantage to make a clean ethical kill. I understand that I must do my part and place the bullet in the vitals at reasonable ranges.

Mule Deer,
I put in for seperate hunting seasons for deer and elk and antelope, so I may choose 2 different loads. Which of the stated do you use for deer and antelope? I was going to go with the GMX but the XP3 seems that it would expand to a larger diameter and would penetrate just fine on deer and antelope.

What would your suggestion for elk be?

Thanks

130 .264 Accubond and 200 .300 Win Mag Accubonds on elk and mule deer. The only one that wasn't complete penetration was a severe quartering (found against the femur) shot from the .300 by a buddy. Here's the recovered bullet, cow went 20 yards:

Sample of one mule deer and 3 elk, none went very far, good blood trails and visible reactions, lots of visible damage

From the .308, I'd go with a 165 Partition, and that's what I'll be loading for my girlfriend this year.

The .308 is no longer mine, just sold it a few days ago. This year I will be using a .270 more than likely but possibly a 30-06. Does that change your suggestion?

Thanks

it would if it was a .270, then I'd go 150 or 160 Partition

If the 168 TTSX from 300 Wby won't get er dun best bring in the heavy stuff!

I've had very good results with TSX, TTSX, and GMX bullets on antelope, deer, and elk. Extremely accurate, fully penetrate, and quick kills.

Taz
Has any of them performed better than the next? or are they all about the same?

I have used TTSX and TSX for a few good seasons now. They shoot well and have good on-game performance.

One thing I found lacking was the 'impact' if a high-shoulder shot wasnt taken. The lack of reaction from critters or the quick death that is seen with a 'softer' bullet seems to happen if you dont hit good solid bone with one of these bullets.

While I've loved the penetration and the on-game performance when it comes to meat, etc, I have moved to an Accubond this year and will see how it does for giving me a bit better reaction at shot when shooting away from the shoulder.

Most of my experiences are with 7-08AI and 140TSX and 140TTSX. This year I'm moving to a 7SAUM and 160AB. I may still use the 140/150TTSX in this cartridge and may try the 120TTSX in the 7-08AI or a 140AB for kicks.

So many options!!!

We pretty much load TTSX's for everything now days. Sure many other bullets will do the job, but so far on mule deer, whitetials, antelope and elk they've worked great and we see good to great accuracy in all our model 70's, so why change. Guess I'm just boring.

I have tried to like the mono's on deer and they just don't do it for me.

1st elk I ever killed fell to a 130 grain .277 gameking, DRT, since then, Partitions, Accubonds, Hornady Spire Points and SST's have all done excellent work for me at varying range's!

Has anyone had experience with the XP3s? Seems like a good balance of bullet performance. Have you had any issues with the TTSX? I do not hand load so would be buying factory loaded

The Partition and AB just work so well, I can't understand why go with the mono's unless law dictates? I guess it is a question more than a statement, why?

I guess I am just intrigued by the penetration and lack of lead fragments/bloodshot. I have heard the bullets being longer than the same weight lead bullets make them more b.c. friendly. I have used accubonds with great success before but was looking at the options.

jcrain,

Any of the bullets you list will expand wider if driven faster. This does tend to help them kill quicker, in my experience, the reason I prefer to start any of them at 3000 fps or more. The XP3, however, does have a lead core in the rear, which tends to shift forward, expanding the back end of the bullet at high impact velocities, especially when it hits bone. This can reduce penetration, just as it does in the Swift A-Frame when the rear core expands.

A lot of people are confused about the extra length of monolithic bullets, compared to a lead-core of the same weight. The length does NOT increase ballistic coefficient or sectional density. SD is purely related to weight and diameter. Any 100-grain .25 caliber bullet has exactly the same SD as any other 100-grain .25 caliber bullets, no matter what it's made of, no matter the length.

Ballistic coefficient is a combination of form and sectional density. A .25 caliber 100-grain TTSX or E-Tip is longer than a .25 caliber 100-grain Partition or GameKing, but that has nothing to with BC.

Bullets kill by tearing up vital organs. The monolithic bullets tear up less tissue, the reason they result in less meat damage, but that also results in less damage to the vital organs. If you put one in the right place, say through the top of the heart and both lungs, it will kill pretty quickly, especially on deer-sized game where the size of the hole is relatively large compared to the animal. But on larger animals the monolithics don't kill as quickly, on average, as bullets that fragment somewhat. They also don't kill deer as quickly when the shot is off-center a little, say in the rear half of the lungs.

The monolithics penetrate quite well, but don't have as big an advantage over some lead-cored bullets as many hunters believe. I've shot lengthwise through deer and antelope with Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions, for instance, and almost lengthwise through elk with Partitions. Lead-cored bullets, however, do have more tendency to stop under the hide, due to their rounded, less jagged mushroom. This really has nothing to do with killing power, however, as a bullet that stops under the hide has obviously penetrated everything up to that point, and the skin isn't a vital organ like the heart or lungs.

So, yeah, monolithic bullets work, often very well. But they aren't magic.

Mule deer,
So what lead core bullet would you recommend for elk using a .270 win? The partition, accubond, seem to be popular. What about interlock? And the a frame you mentioned? Or the XP3 as it looks to expand wider & faster

Only seen one TTSX on an elk, but seen a dozen or more on elk sized critters in Africa.

The only TTSX I have seen put into an elk made the elk not last long. Nice size, healthy cow... Little brother, 235 yards, 257 wby, 100 TTSX.... One shot, cow fell so fast I would have thought he missed if I wasnt watching through my binos.

I have confidence in the TTSX and the Partition. I like the Hornady SP for deer, and it doesn't mean I wouldn't consider any of the other bullets you mentioned, but I have confidence in both the TTSX and the Partition.

How does the a frame compare to the partition? Seems like the design is similar but the a frame seems to retain weight better from what I have read. Is that accurate? Any performance difference?

The A-Frame tends to retain more weight than the Partition, but that also depends on the Partition. The bigger the Partition, in both diameter and weight, the more weight it's designed to retain. A-Frames typicall retain about 90% of their weight, but they also tend to open up more widely than Partitions, both front and rear, so usually penetration is very similar. The A-Frame tends to make a bigger hole the entire length of the wound channel, while the Partition makes an even bigger hole on entry, which tapers to a smaller hole after several inches.

Any experiences trophy bonded bear claws? Or interbonds?

I've killed seven deer with the 139 GMX in 7mm Rem Mag. 6 of 7 fell where they stood, but all were high shoulder shots. When you hit that scapula, it makes little difference what bullet you're using. All were complete pass throughs at ranges up to 300 yards.

I like the GMX and the TTSX a lot -- mostly because I can get them to shoot well consistently. However, I take high shoulder shots when hunting with them for the reasons previously stated. I wouldn't hesitate to punch both lungs if that's the aspect I was presented with, but I'd expect a slower kill and, possibly, a tracking job.

jcrain,

I've used all the versions of the Trophy Bonded, since they were produced by Jack Carter himself in the 1980's up to the present nickel-plated, plastic-tipped, groove-shank version. There are some people who think the original was the best, but that hasn't been my experience. It fouled like crazy, sometimes didn't shoot that well, and in all but the very largest calibers the front end tended to expand into a ball, which didn't kill nearly as well as the flatter mushroom of many other controlled-expansion bullets, such as the TSX and Partition. When Federal took over the manufacturing they revamped the jacket to create a flatter mushroom, which killed quicker. The present version is very accurate and kills quite well.

Interbonds open up widely and so don't always penetrate as deeply as some other controlled-expansion bullets--but they generally penetrate enough. I've never gotten super-accuracy out of them, which seems to be common, but they generally shoot well enough for most big game hunting.

That's been my experience with X/TSX/TTSX bullets, as well. I usually shoot between 1/2 and 2/3 up the body, in line with the shoulder, and they usually collapse at the shot, with little meat damage. The bullet usually passes within a couple of inches of the lower spinal processes, breaks some scapula or shoulder bone, and punches both lungs.

Mule deer,
Seems like you have experienced most bullets available and have a wealth of knowledge. If you were to choose a bullet for an elk hunt using a 270 win, what would you choose? And what would be the second choice?

What about the SST? I think its a bit thinly cased for elk but anyone use it for em?

jcrain,

Have seen more 150 Nosler Partitions used on elk than eny other bullet from the .270, and it does a fine job. But it's really hard to go wrong these days, with all the premium bullets on the market.

I have seen more Elk killed with the 270 Win than any other caliber and never seen one yet killed with a 150 NP that a 130 grain Partition would not have killed.I have used both and stick to 130 Partitions and the old 140 Trophy Bonded.

Like in the 30-06...You don't need a 200 grain bullet because the 180 does it all.I think the record Brown bear for years was taken with a 180 grain pill.

The 270 Win and 130 grain Noslers are like peanut butter and jellie in a jar,with the twist just perfect.

Jayco

Jayco,

What is your favorite 130 partition load?

I have tried most of the powders early on and liked RL-22 for speed(I was young) but these days I save my W-760/H-414 for my personal loads and IMR-4350....

I use Winchester brass and Winchester LRP..I don't give out powder charges on the net..Seems to cause problems for some reason...

But 3100 fps in my 24" Winchester is fairly easy.

Jayco

I need to get into reloading, all the fac tory stuff i can findshoots pretty mildly except the Superformance.

Easy on the assessment, my oldest boy hit a cow elk in the boiler room 3 times, all right next to each other (because the elk would not go down) with a 180 grain Accubond at 225 yards with his 30-06 two years ago. We found 2 of the bullets on the aft hide. The cow elk would not go down so the guide kept telling him to put another one in her. So you cant just assume bonded are better or delivering a faster kill in all cases either.

Totality of the circumstances.


I've not found monolithic type bullets best for me

My experience is with TSXs and TTSXs, about ten head of game from warthog on the small end to zebra and bull elk at the top. I've no complaints -- all were humane and quickly deceased but my feeling is they work best with higher velocity than less.

In attempt to simplify life, though, I've chosen TTSXs for all my big game rifles (just four) because of their accuracy and I know they'll work off the barrel to 400 yds. But it's the longish ranges where there might be more dependable, expanding choices. I'm not sure. I still recall the Lost River Tech 225-gr .338 homogenous (bronze-copper alloy IIRC) that killed a bull right at five hundred yards but just penciled through. But i believe they were much harder than the Barnes versions. Still, the unleaded slugs at longer ranges make me a little nervous.

I will go for the most accurate bullet in my rifle.
200 gr flat base TSX shoots 3/4" from my .300 Wby. It allows to load a little hotter and faster without high pressures than lead core. This must be because the longer design allowed them to put in the grooves that reduce the bearing surface. As a bonus I would swear I feel lower recoil with them, especially heavier ones.
225 gr TTSX shoots 3/4" in my 338 RCM. Love it, and the recoil is noticeably lower than factory Superformance with 200 gr SST.
180 gr FailSafe shoots 3" groups from the same .300 Wby. But it shoots 3/4" groups from my 7.5-55, and the bull I shot with it came down as if the dirt was pulled from under its feet. Poleaxed, not even a twitch, just one shot at 90 yards. It is all about where and how they are hit, more than the bullet construction I think.
I can't get Hornady bullets to shoot any better than good in any of my guns. From the fact that their sitting depth is always a bit different (2-4 thousandths) with the same die setting I conclude their ogive is not highly uniform. In comparison, Bergers seat to within 0.001" all the time.
This is inconsequential for 8" accuracy often quoted for big game but I personally have higher confidence when I know my rifle will hit more or less exactly where I aim it.

Five whitetail so far with the 168 TTSX from a .300 WSM. Four of the five dropped within a few steps of where they were shot. One, a very small doe, ran about 50 yards. Well, actually she was recovered about that far away. I think a good portion of that was tumbling and sliding down the hill towards the bottom.

They shoot sooooooo well in that rifle and give me the closest I've found to a do-it all solution.

Well, I suppose this is enough gun and penetration for whitetail. Where they all behind one another when shot?..

So many bullets, so many calibers, so-o-o many options. I love it!

My experience with TTSX and MRX has been positive. No elk with them so far but mulies and antelope have dropped on the spot and penetration has included front to back and out on a mulie. None recovered so far.

Two bulls may be less than a comprehensive study, but I've had very good luck with a 168 TSX BT in a .308 at just over 300 yards and a 130 TSX BT in a .270 Win. at no more than 125 yards. Quick kills with complete penetration and little meat damage.

One of my concerns with the TSX was the reliability of expansion - this after a bad experience with Barnes XLC bullets (blue lubricated X bullets). My experience with XLCs was they ***COULD*** expand rapidly, then other times they seemed to pencil through with no expansion at all. As a result I cold never bring myself to use TSX bullets on game.

No such problems or doubts with the TTSX or MRX. I hit an antelope high (went for a high shoulder shot, forgetting that the bullet would be 3" high at the given range) and hit above the spine. The 168g TTSX only went through a few inches of flesh before exiting. Examination of the wound channel showed expansion was very fast. I've had one antelope go about 25 feet after being hit with a 100g TTSX and my son-in-law had one go maybe half that distance after being hit with a 168g TTSX. Everything else we have shot dropped straight down including the one I shot poorly as discussed above. (That one did require a finisher, though, as nothing immediately vital was hit.)

Coming in the next few weeks I am going to buy some TTSX and some Superformance GMX and see which shoots the best. Ended up getting a
30-06 instead of the 270, so I will be using 180gr. The TTSX seems to be the popular choice and I may give the XP3s a chance to impress me on a range, still intrigued about the design.

Speed. You want all the speed you can get with monos!


This is a 120 TSX I shot from a 7mm-08 into a caribou at ~200 yards. I would have hoped for more expansion and/or penetration. It wasn't especially impressive. (And I have been very impressed several dozen times when monos, many of them the early variety, worked well. Unfortunately, sometimes they don't.)

Here's a link I just posted today regarding a test I've been working on for awhile:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...0_grain_30_06_bullets_tested#Post6642638

While I have not used the TSX on Elk, I have used and seen used all the versions of the Barnes X (X, XLC, TSX, TTSX) used on game from Coyotes to large Mule Deer. The bullet I have used the most is the .308 cal 150gr out of a .30-06, only have recovered one since 1994 when I started using them.

The one I recovered hit a whitetail buck quartering away in the near hip, smashed the hip joint, continued up through the vitals and broke the off shoulder, stopping under the hide. Range was a little over 300 yards with a .30-06. That is more than enough penetration for me. Retained 85% weight, lost two petals.

Deer are not Elk, but the performance I have seen with them over the past 18 years and lots of game shot, I will trust them. They are not a magic bullet as there is no such thing. If I could not get them to shoot out of a rifle (hasn't been an issue) I would use Partitions with equal confidence.

I shot a big bodied Colorado mule deer with a 140 TTSX out of a 280AI at 389 yards. Muzzle velocity was right at 3200 fps. The first shot was quartered slightly away and went in about 10 inches behind the shoulder and stopped under the hide on the off shoulder. The second round was a raking shot as the deer was disappearing into the oak brush almost straight away. The bullet broke about five ribs on the one side and exited. I found the deer still very much alive, jumped up on me and took off. You should really turn down your scope below 14X before you find the deer at 20 yds. Little to no blood on the ground. After I found him for the second time a quick shot to the neck finished the job. The bullet I recovered looked just like the one posted above and the damage to the inside looked minimal. It is a sample of one so take it for what it is worth. However, I am back to accubonds and partitions. If I was going to use them again I would push them as fast as possible in whatever caliber I was using.

Andy

From what I have seen with the monos they do indeed kill "slower" than conventionals, as Muledeer said, in so many words. My only reference with monos is with whitetails though. I use Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, Accubonds and Partitions on elk. I have never recovered a Partition from any elk I have shot, but have recovered several TBBC's and one Accubond. Below is a typical TBBC for reference...this one was from my biggest bull, which was taken on a "quartering on" shot. It smashed the shoulder and was found in the pelvic canal! Other recovered TBBC's have looked pretty much like this one. The Accubond behaved as advertised, retaining 55% of its original weight and a nice decent mushroom. My TBBC shots seem to all be quartering shots, while my Nosler shots all seem to be broadside, which will partly explain the pass throughs with the Partitions and recovery of the TBBC's.

I wouldn't mind trying the TBBC but they are amazingly expensive if you can even find them as a component bullet. Not really worth my time. If you are shooting factory stuff they might be worth it.

I also am still considering the TBBC, particularly the p3006tt4 loading. The only problem is I can not find those locally, only the others though they still make my list of top 4 to try. Last year I took a small 2x3 mule deer with a 165gr accubond. It was a broadside shot at 230 yards, it did the job but failed to exit which surprised me. So that's when I started pondering other options even though the accubonds are typically reviewed well.

I have a stash of 30 cal 180's and 200's from Jack Carter...the original recepie. I hand load mine.....try to find you some to load at gun shows, etc....I love the way the old ones perform. I have seen it in print before, that the Norma Oryx and the North Fork bullets are the closest thing to the old TBBC's, so take a look at them if you can't find old TBBC's. Norma factory has loaded ammo.

I will look into the Norma offerings. I have not started to reload so I am left to the factory offerings. The TBBC seems it would give good, quick expansion but still has a solid base to help with penetration. Whatever I choose will be for elk and mule deer, so I want a good compromise between expansion and penetration. The etips showed a good result in a test in the reloading section.

GMX - NO

I live and hunt behind the copper curtain, so I have had to switch most of my rifles over to lead free loads. To promote reliable expansion with the lead free stuff I generally step down 1 bullet weight to increase velocity. For example, in my 7-08AI, I swtiched from 140 lead to 120g TTSX. My .260 is running a 100g TTSX. My hunting partners and I took 4 deer last year. 1 with .243 85g, 2 with 7-08 AI 120g TTSX and 1 with 7-08 140g TSX. All 4 were well placed shots, and dropped in their tracks. I understand elk are different, but suspect same principles apply.

I shot this deer quartering with my 7-08AI 120g TTSX at 3150. Bullet broke several ribs before entering check cavity. As much as I hate having bullet selction dictated, a lesser bullet probably would not have penetrated.

Why is it that you say that?

Why? What is your experience? How many critters have you shot with it?

I shot two Sitka last year with a 7mm SAUM pushing a 150 e-tip at 2900 fps. Each deer took one hit to be put down. The first saw me and wAs a bit adrenaline pumped. He ran 30 yards. The second had no idea of my existence and literally went "hooves up" instantly. Never seen a deer flip on its back quite like that. One leg kicked...once. It was spooky, I could watch the bullet flight path over its 278 yard travel in the cold air...

In another world a friend of mine popped a small 50# piglet with a 180 tsx from an '06. piglet took about 20 seconds to expire, though it never ran more than a foot from impact. Full expansion was evident...

Anyway, no bullets were recovered, they performed as advertised.

Ha. I know.... I put that rig together specifically as an elk rifle. Ended up not getting my elk (I KNEW I should have sprung for the bull tag, too), but figured "what the hell" when deer season rolled around. Kept hoping I'd get one facing straight at me so I could see just how far that TTSX would penetrate. Never happened, but the deer just kept falling in their tracks. Surprised me, actually.

If you go with monos I'd personally recommend shooting through the shoulders to anchor the animal better and get a little more expansion, I'd go with a 180gr Accubond, Partition, Interbond, BTSP, or SP on an elk out of an '06.

Personally, I don't get the fixation with the expanding-mono's.

I'll take a Partition every day, all day and twice on Sunday over any of them. Ditto an Accubond.

No fixation on the monos, I used accubonds last year. And you are right in saying the partition and accubonds are top notch. I am sure that back in 1948 when the partitions were introduced that people were skeptical about them. It took people selecting to use a bullet (the partition) other than the current standard to give the partition the legend and following that is has accrued.

Preach it Brad....

I doubt anyone was skeptical about Partition's in 1948. It's just an improved version of what was already available. It's also doubtful in that era most would pay a premium for them, and I'd bet that was the case.

The Expanding mono's are an entirely different kettle of fish, and they've had over 20 years to show what they do in the field. They don't kill any better than, say a Partition, and in many instances don't kill as quickly IMO. When they work, they work well. When they fail (and I believe they fail more than most think), they fail spectacularly. By "fail" I mean they don't open as designed within their velocity range, and essentially act as a FMJ.

Anyone that's worked with hollow points knows what sort of failure I'm talking about.

I will take select Noz Ballistic Tips over the monos for most applications. I know the 180gr, 30 cal is very stout and even at close range with RUM velocity levels.

BTW, Bwalker's avatar is a pic of a .308/150 TTSX I pulled out of a calf elk a couple years ago... tumbled on impact and was found in the off shoulder backwards. No it didn't hit anything on its flight, and surely a 1-10" 308 Win should stabilize a 150 grainer. I'm convinced this happens more than many think.

I don't understand the infatuation with the PT and AB. The TTSX kills just as well and penetrates from stem to stern

I'm just bustin' yer ballz a little bit, Brad, but IMO most bullets kill modern game animals really well. It seems like the same 2 or 3 pics of failed Barnes bullets keep circulating, but I haven't heard of many other cases of failures, especially with the TTSX.

I've seen what is nearly 100 game animals killed with X/TSX/TTSX bullets, now, and I have yet to see an instance in which I thought that the bullet failed to expand properly. The only wild goose chase that I've had to go on was a WT doe that I personally shot a little far back, and only clipped the top rear of one lung. She went a little less than 200 yards before collapsing, and left a blood trail that was like "the yellow brick road", except it was red Everything else has fallen with 100 yards or less, with the majority falling within 20 yards or DRT. To be fair, I am typically a shoulder shooter, but my friends, family, and clients haven't all shot for bone.

Brad,
Dont get me wrong I think the partition and accubond is a great bullet. There are many good/great bullets available. I personally would take a AB over the PT. People back in the day may not have payed for "premium" bullets but today the PT in the federal vital shok 180gr runs over $40. Nosler trophy is a few bucks cheaper but also only offer 150gr and 165g, I prefer to use 180 gr. I can pretty much buy any other offering mono or not for less than partitions. I may not even use a mono at all but this thread is merely to get experiences from those that have used monos for informational purposes, not to argue which bullet is the king of all time. After all core lokts will kill elk just as dead as partitions or a TTSX, assuming you work within the limits of the bullet, rifle and your own skill.

After a bad experience with the original X bullets (XLC), concern about reliable expansion was why I could never bring myself to hunt with TSX even though I had the loads developed. That picture shows exactly what I was concerned about.

No such concern with the tipped versions (TTSX and MRX), which appear to open very quickly. The only one I've recovered was from water jugs, a 180g MRX launched from my .300WM at about 3050fps. It lost one petal. So far, nothing but good results on game in our group with 100g .257" to 180g .308".

What folks seem to always fail to say is that ALL bullets fail at some point. I"ve even seen cup and core Sierra game kings fail to expand at all on a 125 yard shot from an 06 in 165 grainers.

I'll still err to caution and prefer that the bullet be over capable, read a mono, as long as I have a choice. And at this point I have zero losses with mono and know of NO one else personally, other than a few good folks on the fire who I totally trust their data too, that have ever had an issue with a mono.

E tips I have never gotten to shoot well so gave up on them. And now run the TTSX if I have a choice.

YMMV, but I have never seen monos kill as fast as Nosler BT's unless the CNS was hit.
The above mentioned mono kills were with E-tips, TSX's, TTSX's, X's
What you guys who use monos are doing is giving up quick kills based on the idea that complete penetration from every conceivable angle is required. It isnt.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. I've recovered around 10 monos from game, which tells me that they're not "over penetrating" all the time. It really depends on what kinds of shots you take at game. For the shots that I'm willing to take, I don't mind the extra penetration that the monos offer.

Having said that, I use many different bullets on game, not just the monos. I typically use a TSX/TTSX if I'm pushing the bullet faster than 3000fps, and many are leaving the muzzle at ~3300fps. They kill very well at that velocity, even when I'm not going for CNS. I've seen WT bucks with a pulverized heart from a Nosler BT travel 120 yards, and I've seen lung-shot deer go 15 yards before piling up after being hit with a TTSX at around 3150fps impact velocity. There are no hard, fast rules with this stuff.

For killing game, I like the BT, A-Max, SMK, Berger VLD, Horn IL, and others, in addition to the monos. Some times I need extra penetration, and other times I don't. Game size, shot location, range of the shot (impact velocity), and shot angle determine what bullet I might use, as I usually have a mono and a more frangible bullet with me for whatever rifle I'm using.

Oh, and I mostly made that comment above as a retort to those who diligently preach the gospel of PT and AB

If I need a quick stop, I refuse to be dumb enough to risk it to bullet choice, IE partitions and ballistic tip and the like. IF I have to have that, and there are times I desire that, the ONLY certain way to do it is by bullet placement, not bullet choice.

That being said the comment RE you don't have to have penetration from all angles etc... I go like the scouts... alwyas be prepared. Works just fine into the lungs, may run a bit further or may not. And placement can guarantee an instant stop if so desired.

That is by far the smartest move IMHO. Not right for all I understand. But I fail to see how being prepared for anytying you may encounter is bad.

I wear ALL my fire gear going into a fire. While I don't always need it all, when I do, I really do need it all. Same train of thought on bullet choice for me.

And since I"ve had success with zero failures from very close IE under 25 yards on out to 802 yards so far with mono, I'll keep going that route.

Id not fret shooting a elk or a deer from any angle with a 180BT at 3300+fps.
A few years back my wife's uncle shot a whitetail broadside in the hips with a 140 coreloct out of a 7mm rem mag. The entrance hip joint was exploded and the offside hip was broken as well, if the animal had been able to run it would have bled to death from the sheer size of the wound.
BTW Rost, by your own admission you enjoy tracking so your choice of bullets makes sense.

FWIW, Ive NEVER had to trail a animal shot with a TSX/TTSX. That's through probably 25-30 animals. All have either been DRT or died well within sight.

When I started hunting deer - it was in Siberia in 1989 - the only bullet choice I had was, military FMJ in 7.62x54 in a Mosin-Nagant M38 rifle. I shot two deer with it the one season I hunted, one standing and another running. Both poleaxed, dropped on the spot and never twitched. Both bullets were complete pass through, what you'd call a pencil hole. Except, one went through shoulder blades and another, through the shoulder quartering away.
It is a luck of the draw I am convinced. If one tries for the best shot placement possible, any bullet capable of good penetration will do the rest.

I do enjoy the tracking part. I honestly and freely admit that. But your statement makes it sound like I desire for them to run a long ways and have a lingering death. Nothing is farther from the truth. But I don't need a bang flop to be able to locate them.

And I certainly still refuse to waste meat by shooting more frangible bullets.

My choice there. And my choice has been 100% reliable so far. Cup and core bullets have never been 100% reliable.

As I've noted I did a lot of taxidermy years ago, guess which bullets I never found? Mono. Which ones did I find in pieces, cores seperated, stopped by little things like the neck... cup and core...

Mine isn't that I have the desire to shoot mono for any reason, only that a lot of years, seeing well over 1000 animals harvested and watching the results and coming to an educated conclusion.

Regards, Jeff

I have never had a single cup and core fail to expand and never had one not kill pretty darn quick when I did my job.
What sorts of failures have you had?

06, 165 sierra game king. Punched a rib going in. Rib going out. Both 30 cal holes. Through both lungs. Was killed 3 weeks or so later with a neck shot so we could see what the deal was because we searched for about 6-7 hours for that cull.

The others I"ve noted, one a partition 180 out of a 300 mag, stopped by the neck in a 200 pound buck. Mind you stopped AGAINST the neck and I had to kill him with my knife rather than shoot him again(my choice). When you stop a bullet by a puny neck, its amazing.

From the taxidermy side I've skinned out probably 5-7 or so more necks that had stopped a bullet. Mostly were in the 308-06 type calibers and most of those were corelokts.

Failure, well, it can depend, but yes all the deer were dead, whether today or 3 weeks later in the one case.

But it has to lead you right back to why I went to mono. I simply desire something that will leave an exit hole. And if a bullet can't make it through a deers puny(remember ours ain't the size of yours by any means) neck, then its simply not producing confidence to break both shoulders, or penetrate totally from an angle etc...

The last example... 7 mag, 160 sierra game king, 125ish yards, 60 pound piggy.... walking dead away from me and I"m trying to get a good line on the line of piggies for penetration issues... IE more than one with one shot... so I have to go high on the back one... back of head, in the neck basically.. Bang and one flop. 160 was cup and core seperated right there. Flat amazed me. No exit would. Just stopped.

And trust me if you told me this was possible, I'd have called you a liar before I'd seen enough with my own eyes.

And I've yet to see a mono failure, though there are examples out there, Klik and Brad both have them, I've yet to see a single one, or loose any animal.

In fact in a 6.8 necked to 6mm that I run, I shoot tsx not tipped 85s... I've had those dinky bullets run stem to stern more than a few times, never caught one, never lost any animal with them either. One we had to blood trail a ways, but not that big of a deal as there was a blood trail the whole way. She was pumped on adrenalin a bit when I shot her facing me....explains 125ish yard trail.

Not that cup and core don't work, I simply don't trust them for a be all do all any more. And probably never will.

Does not mean I dont' use them when it doesn't matter, IE I can pick my shots or pass the shots. In fact I've put down a few deer or more with the target 185 berger from my 308, but those are pick and choose bullets and I have yet to hit anything other than skull or rib bones at this point.

Jeff

So you had one bullet fail to expand and several other do some weird stuff, but not fail?
A cup and core losing its core is not a failure. For instance I shot a elk this year with a 180gr BT with a impact velocity of 3300+fps. The hole going in was the size of my fist(literaly), broke shoulder, penetrated lungs totally destroying both, and went through the muscle off the off side shoulder and was found under the hide, with just a smattering of lead left in the jacket. The jacket weighed over 100 grs IIRC. the blood ran out the side of that elk like a garden hose, but tracking wasnt needed, because it never took a step. Was this a bullet failure?

Like I know from you, you won't budge or admit or meet in the middle. Thats a given.

But if bullets seperate and stop on a puny neck, mind you thats THIS side of the neck, not after going through the bone, then I just flat won't risk that bullet. Who says it'll be enough to break a shoulder or a hip at some point.

I owe it to the game I shoot to take the least amount of chances.

The one deer that was lost for 3 weeks also made more than a few folks on that deer lease rethink did they miss a few deer along the way or was it due to a bullet failure they never knew about? Made many go to barnes, and the rest go to at least bonded.

IMHO, and you and I are both allowed to have our versions of that, when you have a better tool available just in case, I'm going to use it just in case. For I well know mr murphy. Why not? Certainly not cost or accuracy. Even if they are a buck a piece, monos are not target bullets. And how many of the things do you shoot a year? I run others for practice when thats deemed needed. But for me, and I take 3-5 or so deer a year depending, thats maybe 2-5 shots to verify zero( or not) and one bullet per deer. 10 bucks max won't break my bank. And is mild cost wise considering one has over 1000 bucks easily in a deer rifle...

just my take on it.

Regards, Jeff

Oh yeah, and my instances are not even elk, but small whitetails. If cup and core can't even penetrate the neck vertabrae on a whitetail, why would I risk same on an animal thats tougher and much larger?

I think you would agree that the 180 partition is kind of the gold standard in 30 cal premium bullets with a track record that spans decades. Barnes hasnt got a decade out of any of its versions and even the latest ones have had failures.
BTW I still use TSX's for certain applications, like my 6mm remington and 25-06AI. Though I switched the AI over to TTSX's. They do dig.

From what I've been told the 180 partition is much more frangible than the 200 partition in 30 cal and thats where my mistake in picking a partition came in.

No need to worry, that was my "elk" load if I ever had the privilege and when a 200 pound WT stops it in his neck... we found a MUCH better solution.

Until I see the mono failures with my own eyes, I'll just truck right along like you have done! We've each had great results.

All partitions are designed such that the front half is frangible. This is why they kill fast and dont suffer from the Barnes Rodeo Syndrome. They also penetrate very similar to a Barnes. because the resulting slug after the front core is blown off has a pretty small frontal area. My dad has shot a pile of animals with them and has only ever recovered a few as they most always blow through.
I prefer the BT to the partition as they are even more frangible,kill quicker, are more accurate in general. If you pick the right one the jacket is very stout and is a large percentage of the bullets final weight so they dig pretty deep too.
As I alluded to before, arbitrary "wish lists" like two holes, 100% weight retention, etc are BS. Berger VLD retain very little weight and many times dont shoot through, but they kill like lightning. BT's are a little less explosive than VLD's, penetrate better and kill very well.

One other point. Why do you suppose Barnes devotes recommend shooting for bone or using a lighter bullet to raise impact velocity? Maybe because the generate a pretty small wound channel with out such tricks?

I'm a barnes devotee and actually can't recall shooting bone in a LONG time. Never made a difference.

I shoot barnes in my SLOW guns too and have never had an issue.

As to Bergers coming apart, I've yet to not have an exit on them either. And I"ve got some pretty nice looking ones expanded and probably retaining around 75% or so of weight from some 800ish yard shooting a few years back into dirt backstop. As to killing like lightning, the bergers that is, I"ve yet to have a bang flop with one at all. Other than cranial shots. Still doesn't matter, for what I use them for, they have worked ok so far.

as far as wish lists, they 2 holes and 100% may be BS to you, but we don't all play by your rules thankfully. You run yours, I run mine, we both are probably batting 100%( I know I am when it comes to monos)

While on the topic, my nephew is still looking for the grail bullet... one that goes in just far enough, then basically explodes and bounces around inside the animal until depleted.
Of course he'll never find that. And his family is the one that continually calls me when they shoot at a deer and it runs off. Seems they have issues following blood trails sometimes. and if its not a bang flop, they have a hard time. They also try to be the double shoulder bone family too, and generally throw away both front shoulders of the deer they shoot. Which is really a shame to waste meat if they actually would calm down a bit and place the bullet where it'll kill and not destroy much meat at the same time.

While I don�t get to hunt nearly as much as some folks here, maybe/probably even most, I have been going for elk and deer since I moved here to Colorado in 1982. During that time I�ve only missed going elk hunting one or two years, hunted deer when I could get licenses (i.e. not quite as often) and have hunted antelope here and in Wyoming since the late 1990�s. More than a few coyotes and a lot of prairie dogs have dropped to my hunting rifles as well, mostly the 7mm Rem Mag and .257 Roberts, plus I�ve seen quite a few game animals shot by other hunters.

Some things I�ve learned over that time:

1. Shots don�t always go as planned.

2. Even with well placed shots, animals don�t always drop straight down and you may not see any clear indication of a hit. If the animal walks or runs away and you subscribe to the �shoot until they are down� philosophy, as I do, you may find yourself with a bad angle and have to take what is given or risk losing a wounded animal.

Given Murphy�s proven willingness and ability to intrude in my life, I prefer a bullet that will perform well under as wide a range of circumstances as practical. While there are some premium bullets I don�t care for, the ones I currently use seem to work as well as cup-and-cores at low velocity and I trust them more at high velocity.



The F150 above is semi-retired and is basically my hunting truck. Between it and the camper trailer I�ve spent over $1200 on tires in the last couple years, never mind other maintenance ($$$) and insurance ($$$) or the many thousands ($$,$$$) I have tied up in the rig that could be invested elsewhere. Fuel costs for the elk hunt were over $500 for each of the last two years. The bill for ice and dry ice came to around $150 for last year�s antelope hunt, another $150 or so for licenses and over $300 for fuel. Colorado and Wyoming license costs will run me just under $300 this year and food costs will be about the same. Processing fees ran over $600 last year.

For me, the extra cost of premium bullets for hunting barely registers when compared to other costs that are orders of magnitude greater. It sure isn't something I worry about.

Price has never been an issue for me as its miniscule in the scheme of things as you point out.

Well said Coyote Hunter...you've got it figured out and stated your case perfectly.

My personal philosophy has been: I don't want a bullet that works when things are perfect (that does not always happen!), I want a bullet that works when things go bad.. this is not a ground breaking statement for sure...but it's the truth.

Another truisim for me is Old Man Murphy will intrude in our life for sure, as you stated....The $64,000 question is when it will be? I can tell you it won't be when you are shooting at that little ol cow....not normally. It will be when you have that 340-350 bull in your crosshairs.

Unless you own your own ranch, the very cheapest hunt for us folks from east of the Mississippi will be, oh, about $1500 when you factor in all the costs, and it sure as hell goes up from there! Sorry to sound so stinking cliche' but what is one more $2.00 bullet when you have all that $ tied up in the hunt? I apologize for spouting off a fact that has been beaten to death, but again, its true.

Coyote and Godogs think along my lines.

And BWalker has evidently had total success his path.

No wrong any which way there, other than some of us prepare for the inevitable, and others chug along.

Jeff

GMX .243 80 grain all the way...

Saw a kudu stop a game king from a 338wm in his neck. Thought that wad pretty impressive, for the bull, not the bulleecovered a gameking on a heart [bleep] cow elk from 60 yardS

Not too keen on GK's for elk...they do tend to shed their core a lot in my opinion. As a matter of fact I have seen the majority shed their core on the deer I've shot too.

I personally witnessed my elk hunting partner drop a nice 6x6 with GK's a few years ago...the only thing about it was it took seven (7) hits to do it. The bullets splattering on the hide of the elk and on the shoulder (from a 338 no less) were not pretty to see. Up until that point, I had been telling him/kidding with him, to switch to Partitions or my personal favorite, TBBC's, to no avail. As we were admiring his bull and the gutting process started on this thoroughly ventilated bull, he looked at me and said "Would you be so kind as to suggest some starting loads for a Partition? I would appreciate it..."

We got him fixed up now and the difference is pretty apparent...

That�s not a good recommendation for Game Kings!

People say the choice of bullets can�t make up for bad placement. This sounds like pretty good placement and that a different bullet, like a Partition, would have made a world of difference.

I have used both the TSX and Partitions, in 7mm and 308 caliber. I have one rifle that shoots the TSX in dime sized 100 yard groups and the PT barley at an inch. I have killed two elk with the TSX, in that rifle. While both were killed I did not get the result on the second one I needed to take my second animal. I am now using the PT in that rifle even though its not a dime sized shooter. I have seen the results of over 100 elk killed with the PT. I like the PT

I've killed 5 animals with it including 2 elk - all 5 kills were double lung hits. They create diameter sized entrance and exit holes with no blood trail. Each elk and mule deer kill required extended tracking. I like my lungs scrambled; GMX doesn't do it.

Interesting thread with lots of good perspective...just read the whole thing.

Never used a mono nor worried much about them but generally think along the lines of Coyote Hunter, Rost, and Godogs in the bullet department..I lean toward "tougher" myself .