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Maybe not a bad idea to go with Partitions for everything... Rock solid idea... Never seen one not work near or far and from all angles...
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Well, the first load with 130 Accubonds and H4831sc went about .5" at 100, so it looks like I've found my meat getter.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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NAB's are excellent bullets. With that group and those bullets, you're good to go.
DF
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elk really don't require benchrest grade accuracy to get a shot into the vitals at any decent hunting distance. We all have our definitions of decent ala doable distances. Bench grade accuracy is my standard.
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Well, the first load with 130 Accubonds and H4831sc went about .5" at 100, so it looks like I've found my meat getter. If your first load went into .5 betcha you can tweek it and shrink it. AB's have been know to be remarkably accurate. Wanna sell me a hundert of em? Would like to try em in the 6.5-06
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You wanna' try some .277" Accus in your 6.5? C'mon man...
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I thought you meant 130 gr .264's.. albeit the consensus here on the .270 they should make my 6.5-06 perform more better.
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They definitely will get you some awesome numbers on that chrono They've got a measly .435 BC... can't even be in the same room as a 6.5 Accu!
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Bergers work well at all ranges. Albeit they ain't for everyone. Depends on what you are looking for. Berger claims their bullets �will shed 40% to 85%� of their weight and produce a wound cavity that is �13� to 15� long�. I want more penetration than that and to get it you need a bullet that holds together. Just this morning I was reading of a Berger that failed to reach the far lung on a broadside shot at elk. Could be complete bullcrap, as I wasn�t thereto verify it, but what I do know is that the bullets I use drop elk fast on a broadside, usually straight down, and they have made the trip lengthwise on mulies, from both directions, dropping them straight down in the process. Here�s the elk record for my hunting buddy (Dave), son-in-law(Kelan) and myself since 1999 when I started keeping good records: 1999 � Daves bull, 7mm RM/160g Grand Slam, 5x5 bull, 100 yards broadside, straight down 2000 � Daves cow, 7mm RM/160g Grand slam, cow elk, ~80 yard neck shot, 125 yards (A more frangible bullet would have been better here, as would a broadside to the body.) 2000 � 6x5 bull, 7mm RM/160g Grand Slam, 350 yards broadside, straight down 2002 � Dave�s cow, 7mm RM/160g ~100 yards broadside, 40 yards 2002 � Cow, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, 40 yards 2002 � 5x5 bull, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, straight down 2003 � 6x6 bull, .45-70 350g North Fork, 213 yards broadside, straight down 2006 � Dave�s cow, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, 20 feet 2006 � Cow, .300WM/180g North Fork, 282 yards broadside, 25 yards 2007 � Cow, .30-06/165g North Fork, 125 yards broadside, straight down 2007 � Cow, .30-06/165g North Fork, 25 yards broadside, straight down 2010 � Cow, .30-06/150g AccuBond, 262 yards broadside, straight down 2010 � Kelan�s cow, .300WM/180g PowerPoint, 363 yards broadside, straight down 2011 � Cow, .338WM/225g AccuBond, 265 yards, 1 poorly placed shot above the spine (my fault) allowed it to make 20 yards; 2 more broadside an inch apart, still standing after the first, straight down after the second (which was unnecessary but accelerated the inevitable) If you were counting, that�s 14 elk with 8 going straight down where they were hit with the first shot. Of those, 9 were mine and 6 went straight down. Very acceptable. I don�t shoot a lot of deer, just one every 2-3 years, but with one exception every one I can think of in the last decade has been shot with a North Fork, TTSX/MRX, Grand Slam or Trophy Bonded and has gone straight down, most on broadsides but two lengthwise with full length penetration. The one that didn�t go straight down took a quartering hit with a .45-70/350g and was leaking more than any animal I�ve ever seen. It made a tight circle and dropped just a few yards from where it was hit. I had an antelope make it 25 yards after getting hit with a 100g TTSX, but the others we�ve shot with various caliber/weight Grand Slam, TTSX and AccuBonds have gone straight down or made no more than a couple steps . XLCs were an epic failure on antelope but that�s why I don�t use them anymore (they did stop the buck in its tracks, though). My son-in-law dropped an antelope with a 168g A-MAX but lost a lot of meat as a result of shrapnel. That antelope made a few steps but didn�t drop any faster than the others. Bullets that are advertised not to penetrate more than 15� don�t interest me. Although I try hard for broadside shots, I won�t turn down frontal or quartering shots. The one ham shot I�ve taken was the result of Murphy stepping in as the trigger broke � but the 7mm/140g North Fork made it to the sternum of a buck mulie and dropped it before I recovered from the recoil. Use Bergers if you want, I don�t think they have anything to offer that I�m not already getting and I simply don�t trust them if things go wrong. Practice with what you plan to use. No exceptions.
I've often wondered why some hunters accept minute of pie plate accuracy and sub par practice for killing? Some even think magnums will make up for poorly placed shots. Game animals deserve more respect than that.
jus' my .02 �Sub-par practice�? Your opinion doesn�t make it a fact. I�ve got practice loads that are cheap and extremely accurate and most shoot so close to the same POI as my hunting loads that there is no practical difference for hunting purposes. Saves me a bundle on practice and the switchover only requires a few shots to reconfirm zero and trajectory. Anyone can do the same. "a bit better accurate" and the tiniest of MOA standards are only what I am after. No exceptions. The game I hunt gets respect at many levels. Just how I feel 'bout it. My game gets respect, too � that�s why I develop accurate loads and practice as much as I can. My 7mmRM/140g North Fork loads shot the second smallest group I�ve ever shot, 3 shots at 0.262� for a scope check. Here�s a scope check target from my .338 WM, taken just before the 2011 elk season: That may not be accurate enough for you. It is way more accurate than I need, but I�ll take it. Once I hit about 1.25-MOA, smaller groups don�t buy me anything in the field. Respect for the game is also why I refuse to use what I consider sub-par bullets like the Bergers. That�s my .02.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 08/16/12. Reason: Correction of 6x5 to 6x6 in 2003
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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DF: Bad choice of words.You get my drift..
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Bergers work well at all ranges. Albeit they ain't for everyone. Depends on what you are looking for. Berger claims their bullets �will shed 40% to 85%� of their weight and produce a wound cavity that is �13� to 15� long�. I want more penetration than that and to get it you need a bullet that holds together. Just this morning I was reading of a Berger that failed to reach the far lung on a broadside shot at elk. Could be complete bullcrap, as I wasn�t thereto verify it, but what I do know is that the bullets I use drop elk fast on a broadside, usually straight down, and they have made the trip lengthwise on mulies, from both directions, dropping them straight down in the process. Here�s the elk record for my hunting buddy (Dave), son-in-law(Kelan) and myself since 1999 when I started keeping good records: 1999 � Daves bull, 7mm RM/160g Grand Slam, 5x5 bull, 100 yards broadside, straight down 2000 � Daves cow, 7mm RM/160g Grand slam, cow elk, ~80 yard neck shot, 125 yards (A more frangible bullet would have been better here, as would a broadside to the body.) 2000 � 6x5 bull, 7mm RM/160g Grand Slam, 350 yards broadside, straight down 2002 � Dave�s cow, 7mm RM/160g ~100 yards broadside, 40 yards 2002 � Cow, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, 40 yards 2002 � 5x5 bull, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, straight down 2003 � 6x5 bull, .45-70 350g North Fork, 213 yards broadside, straight down 2006 � Dave�s cow, 7mm RM/160g, ~100 yards broadside, 20 feet 2006 � Cow, .300WM/180g North Fork, 282 yards broadside, 25 yards 2007 � Cow, .30-06/165g North Fork, 125 yards broadside, straight down 2007 � Cow, .30-06/165g North Fork, 25 yards broadside, straight down 2010 � Cow, .30-06/150g AccuBond, 262 yards broadside, straight down 2010 � Kelan�s cow, .300WM/180g PowerPoint, 363 yards broadside, straight down 2011 � Cow, .338WM/225g AccuBond, 265 yards, 1 poorly placed shot above the spine (my fault) allowed it to make 20 yards; 2 more broadside an inch apart, still standing after the first, straight down after the second (which was unnecessary but accelerated the inevitable) If you were counting, that�s 14 elk with 8 going straight down where they were hit with the first shot. Of those, 9 were mine and 6 went straight down. Very acceptable. I don�t shoot a lot of deer, just one every 2-3 years, but with one exception every one I can think of in the last decade has been shot with a North Fork, TTSX/MRX, Grand Slam or Trophy Bonded and has gone straight down, most on broadsides but two lengthwise with full length penetration. The one that didn�t go straight down took a quartering hit with a .45-70/350g and was leaking more than any animal I�ve ever seen. It made a tight circle and dropped just a few yards from where it was hit. I had an antelope make it 25 yards after getting hit with a 100g TTSX, but the others we�ve shot with various caliber/weight Grand Slam, TTSX and AccuBonds have gone straight down or made no more than a couple steps . XLCs were an epic failure on antelope but that�s why I don�t use them anymore (they did stop the buck in its tracks, though). My son-in-law dropped an antelope with a 168g A-MAX but lost a lot of meat as a result of shrapnel. That antelope made a few steps but didn�t drop any faster than the others. Bullets that are advertised not to penetrate more than 15� don�t interest me. Although I try hard for broadside shots, I won�t turn down frontal or quartering shots. The one ham shot I�ve taken was the result of Murphy stepping in as the trigger broke � but the 7mm/140g North Fork made it to the sternum of a buck mulie and dropped it before I recovered from the recoil. Use Bergers if you want, I don�t think they have anything to offer that I�m not already getting and I simply don�t trust them if things go wrong. Practice with what you plan to use. No exceptions.
I've often wondered why some hunters accept minute of pie plate accuracy and sub par practice for killing? Some even think magnums will make up for poorly placed shots. Game animals deserve more respect than that.
jus' my .02 �Sub-par practice�? Your opinion doesn�t make it a fact. I�ve got practice loads that are cheap and extremely accurate and most shoot so close to the same POI as my hunting loads that there is no practical difference for hunting purposes. Saves me a bundle on practice and the switchover only requires a few shots to reconfirm zero and trajectory. Anyone can do the same. "a bit better accurate" and the tiniest of MOA standards are only what I am after. No exceptions. The game I hunt gets respect at many levels. Just how I feel 'bout it. My game gets respect, too � that�s why I develop accurate loads and practice as much as I can. My 7mmRM/140g North Fork loads shot the second smallest group I�ve ever shot, 3 shots at 0.262� for a scope check. Here�s a scope check target from my .338 WM, taken just before the 2011 elk season: That may not be accurate enough for you. It is way more accurate than I need, but I�ll take it. Once I hit about 1.25-MOA, smaller groups don�t buy me anything in the field. Respect for the game is also why I refuse to use what I consider sub-par bullets like the Bergers. That�s my .02. I've seen that list before. Impressive. �Sub-par practice�? Your opinion doesn�t make it a fact. I never said it did. Again I game my .02 In my mind if I am going to make the commitment to kill and practice to kill. I will practice with the ingredients I intend to cook with. That pretty much removes all the controllable variables with the ingredients. Different bullet brands rarely perform exactly alike. Too accurate is not accurate enough in my book. Again my .02
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Fully aware of what Ingwe has done. Stellar actually.
I'm not saying that these "board standard" bullets don't work nor will. What I am saying is go with the most accurate bullet for your load/rifle. I feel too many rely on marginal accuracy with a "hunting bullet" to make up for poor preparation and poor shot placement.
If a guy has a 1.5 moa rifle at 100 yards at 400 that equates to 6" add wind, weather and angles, now you could have a mess.
SST's will work, Bergers will work, Scenars will work and yes even the lowly matchking. Hell, I'm a fan of AB's if you can get a good load. Accuracy and bullet placement trumps all.
If you can squeeze out MOA at 100 you're marginally ok. .5 MOA is where I think you should be. Or better. BS. On many levels. All bullets are most assuredly NOT the same in "on game" performance, any more than they are the same flying through the air......and all bullet performance issues are not resolved by merely hitting the right "spot".Anyone with a modicum of experience killing animals knows this.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Cocadori, You're a sniper/shooter who hunts... And that's OK. Just some are more hunters and their equipment is just that, a tool. I lean more toward you are in that regard. DF
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... Too accurate is not accurate enough in my book. Again my .02 Fair enough.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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BS ..how so? Level it for me. All bullets are most assuredly NOT the same in "on game" performance Correct. I never said they were. all bullet performance issues are not resolved by merely hitting the right "spot" "Hunting" bullets cannot resolve issues of a miss placed shot either. Issues can be exponentially increased in realms of "oh schitt" by hitting the wrong spot. Proficiency in knowing your rifles/load and how it "acts" can reduce this significantly. A well placed bullet regardless of make can kill and kill well. How many here are willing to take on a running shot? A few I suppose. I guess a "hunting bullet" would increase confidence "just in case" huh? I guess that in itself could turn into an ethics discussion. Success cannot be increased by a poor shot with a magnum or "hunting bullet". A paunch shot, leg shot, etc. Anyone with a modicum of of experience of killing animals knows this as well. IN the end it's the same old same old hunting vs match bullet. The OP wanted to know if the SST's would work on Elk. Yes they do. The ones I've seen hit/killed they didn't complain either and there were no issues. I never said it would be my first choice. I simply stated my opinion that accuracy trumps all. In any case I'd choose the most accurate recipes with the bullets I wanted to use. Whether it be a SST' core lokt, Partition etc. save varmints types. For years I carried the ought six with Partitions. Not because it was a Partition but because it was hands down the bullet the rifle liked the best. However I was limited in my range of effectiveness due to bullets issues in the areas of BC and speed bleed off due to bullet design. You've your opinion I have mine.
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Cocadori, You're a sniper/shooter who hunts... And that's OK. Just some are more hunters and their equipment is just that, a tool. I lean more toward you are in that regard. DF I'm a guy who likes to be prepared to maximize the limits if the situation presents itself. Do I look for the maximum limit. hell no. I'd love every one to be under 100 yards, broad side, no wind , no weather and the sun at my back. That rarely happens. To make up for tough situations I like to be prepared with the utmost in accuracy and patience to wait for the right window of opportunity. If I was younger and not seen the mistakes I've seen. I may fall into the "hunting" bullet cause it'll kill better thing. It still comes down to shot placement. Can one extend their opportunity envelopes buy using a "solid" to drive from one end to the other. Sure. Those are risky shots and those who worry about meat damage with "match" bullets because of explosiveness should be worried about just as much meat damage in takeign an end to end. Do Bergers, SMK's and the likes fragment? Sure they do. All the time no, not all the time. Fragments aren't always a negative. several wounds can be beneficial over one as well. Do they fail yes they do. Do hunting bullets fail? yes they do. I've see a corelokt zip right through a speed goat. As far as I know that goat is still alive. I saw a partition bounce off a rib and open the guts like a zipper too. If my rifle liked them the best because I had the best accuracy I could achieve for the velocities I feel I needed to get the job done at my maximized ranges. I'd use em. It now comes back full circle to accuracy. Am I right in my thinking. Hell who knows. I know it's my opinion. Because in my mind If I can place the shot where I think it needs to be placed then I have the confidence I need. If the shot is such that I don't feel right or confident I simply don't take it. Years ago I might have. I passed on an easy booner WT this past year. Simply because the shot wasn't right for the conditions I was presented with. Schitt that's just hunting. I still managed to harvest a respectable one however. But the good news is I've seen him this year ;-) I just have to show him where to travel ;-)
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�
"Hunting" bullets cannot resolve issues of a miss placed shot either. Issues can be exponentially increased in realms of "oh schitt" by hitting the wrong spot. Proficiency in knowing your rifles/load and how it "acts" can reduce this significantly.
Nuts. A bullet that holds together and penetrates deeply can indeed help make up for a misplaced shot. The buck I shot in 2007 stepped forward and turned away as the trigger broke, making an �easy� 150 yard quartering away shot a shot to the right ham. Fortunately the North Fork bullet held together and penetrated to the sternum, dropping that buck like the proverbial rock. A bullet like a Berger, if penetrating 15� as advertised, would have ended up in the intestines or stomach and may well have resulted in a lost animal as a result. A sample of one, to be sure, and not all misplaced shots are on a straight line to the vitals. Nevertheless, North Fork bullets have proven to me they are capable of breaking a lot of bone and continuing. So have Barnes TTSX/MRX, Grand Slam and Trophy Bonded. Unfortunately, things don�t always go as planned. When that is the case I�ll take a bullet that expands reliably but in a controlled manner, holds together and penetrates deeply. A well placed bullet regardless of make can kill and kill well.
Keyword there is �can�. Very different than �will�. I�ve put FMJ�s through coyotes and quit using them when well placed shots failed to result in satisfactory kills. When I tried 7mm 160g Barnes XLC bullets on antelope they were complete failures � two through the lungs on a slight quartering shot failed to kill and it took a third through the heart, over 20 minutes later, to finish the job. Bullet design affects performance. If I could guarantee every shot would be a perfectly placed broadside and that Murphy would never interfere again, Bergers would be fine. Unfortunately, experience dictates a different approach to life. Stuff happens. How many here are willing to take on a running shot? A few I suppose. I guess a "hunting bullet" would increase confidence "just in case" huh? I guess that in itself could turn into an ethics discussion.
My guess is quite a few would take running shots. Trying them on coyotes has resulted in mixed success and made me very cautious about taking such shots. Haven�t taken one on big game in years but I won�t rule them out completely � and yes, a good �hunting� bullet, not a Berger, would definitely increase confidence levels. Success cannot be increased by a poor shot with a magnum or "hunting bullet". A paunch shot, leg shot, etc. Anyone with a modicum of of experience of killing animals knows this as well.
Poor shots are not all equal. As long as the shot is placed in a straight line with the vitals, a bullet that holds together has a better chance of reaching them than do bullets that fly to flinders shortly after impact. IN the end it's the same old same old hunting vs match bullet.
The OP wanted to know if the SST's would work on Elk. Yes they do. The ones I've seen hit/killed they didn't complain either and there were no issues. I never said it would be my first choice. I simply stated my opinion that accuracy trumps all. In any case I'd choose the most accurate recipes with the bullets I wanted to use. Whether it be a SST' core lokt, Partition etc. save varmints types.
For years I carried the ought six with Partitions. Not because it was a Partition but because it was hands down the bullet the rifle liked the best. However I was limited in my range of effectiveness due to bullets issues in the areas of BC and speed bleed off due to bullet design.
You've your opinion I have mine.
There is no doubt that SST bullets would work most of the time. So would a .223 with a 52g match bullet. I trust AccuBonds to perform better, which is why I use SSTs for practice and AccuBonds for hunting in my .338 WM. I�m not worried about what happens when things go right because, well, things go right. What I want is the extra edge good bullets can provide when things go south.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Poor shots are not all equal. As long as the shot is placed in a straight line with the vitals, a bullet that holds together has a better chance of reaching them than do bullets that fly to flinders shortly after impact.
A bullet that holds together and penetrates deeply can indeed help make up for a misplaced shot.
OK so what about those that are not in line with the vitals? Does a Solid or NF or the like do better? So jus' in case you were wondering. I just ordered 400 140gr AB's for the 6.5-06. Will they suffice?
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Fully aware of what Ingwe has done. Stellar actually.
I'm not saying that these "board standard" bullets don't work nor will. What I am saying is go with the most accurate bullet for your load/rifle. I feel too many rely on marginal accuracy with a "hunting bullet" to make up for poor preparation and poor shot placement.
If a guy has a 1.5 moa rifle at 100 yards at 400 that equates to 6" add wind, weather and angles, now you could have a mess.
SST's will work, Bergers will work, Scenars will work and yes even the lowly matchking. Hell, I'm a fan of AB's if you can get a good load. Accuracy and bullet placement trumps all.
If you can squeeze out MOA at 100 you're marginally ok. .5 MOA is where I think you should be. Or better. BS. On many levels. All bullets are most assuredly NOT the same in "on game" performance, any more than they are the same flying through the air......and all bullet performance issues are not resolved by merely hitting the right "spot".Anyone with a modicum of experience killing animals knows this. Agree completely. We all acknowledge that placement trumps everything else...not much good is going to happen if you can't hit the vitals. However, hitting the right spot is only the beginning point for a successful shot. My elk blood brother proved this on a number of elk prior to switching bullets. His choice was Sierra Game Kings...a very good bullet on elk "usually". His elk would all require multiple shots to drop (witnessed by me and others). When dressing out the elk we'd always find core separations, and what we would deem insufficient penetration - never a pass through, not once. I cautioned him that one day it was going to bite him in the butt, and to get something a little more stout for a bull elk. His last GK experience was with a gorgeous 6x6 bull that took seven shots to put down. Six of those shots were in the vitals, mostly exploding on the hide/shoulder. I got it all on video for his viewing pleasure. Afterwards he asked me to dig him up a good load for Partitions and life has been a great series of bang flops for him ever since. SST's will work, Bergers will work, Scenars will work, and the Matchking will work...all will, but NONE of these will work every time on the shoulderblade of a 900#+ bull. Noslers, TBBC's, NF's, BBC's sure will, and have been doing it for ages. I just want the law of averages on my side all I can get, and to keep Murphy's Law as far away as I can. The latter named bullets will go a long way towards helping me in that endeavor.
You only live once, but...if you do it right, once is enough.
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