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That wasnt her trying to strike at me was it DS? That was one of the other horses I think but I cant remeber for sure. I didnt mean nothin when I used the word "coonass" in my last post DS. It was awfully funny when she unloaded ya tho!!!! Me try it??? UH UH no way!!!!!HEHEHE THat was a squaw broke filly if I ever saw one, and I never did ride her after that, but it sure was funny. I believe that was Joe that reared up that one time and tried to get onrey with me. I didnt think it was too funny, and I am glad there was somewhere to go and that I had my eye on him!!! The only one that compared to that as far as funny was when Jason jumped off before the big wreck!!! Jump Jason Jump!!!! bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

I'm fairly sure it was the paint that attacked you....right after she dumped me! <P>And Jason did look like a ghost about the time he was headin' dead center of that big arse ol' tree!......if memory serves...the horse went one way, and he flew the other! <P>And just think....all them wrecks with an experienced outfitter....just wait til I get mine back in this fall.....HOLY COW! I may video it all, and enter it on America's Funniest Home Video!....need to do something to recoup some of the cash I'm dumping!....the fertilizer business ain't panning out....can't get the boys to bag it, but the horse is holding up his end......he sure produces the stuff! <BR>DS<P><BR>

Hi There<P> I don't have much experience in the packing department, but I have researched up on some breeds in particular for packing now and then. <P> some horses will become sour to certain activities because they have been pushed too much too fast. That paint mare would have come around if you start her off gradually, we had a stud that would not let people do up his cinch because the people who had him before would do it up really quick, and too tight. We were able to do up his cinch eventually by doing it up little by little, and walking him a short distance inbetween. Eventually he realized we weren't going to rief it up on him like other people had done.<P> For the aggressive streak that the mare has, I suggest picking up a behavioral training video by Dr. Robert Miller, he has a couple methods that can be accomplished in 15 minutes to half an hour that will change your horses personality for the better. His videos are great I first came arcoss them in 1985 and I am always looking for more info from him. He is a friend of Monty Roberts( the horse whisperer).<P>He is the trainer that strongly believes in imprinting a foal, to get it used to every day handling in its life. I suggest to everyone to watch his videos they are interesting and great to watch <P>My one major concern is people who do not condition their horses before the hunting season. It is unfair and cruel to a horse to just throw weight on his back withiut conditioning.<P>Well I hope I have interested some people in Dr. Robert Miller behavioural training advice, it is quite neat what can be accomplished in a short time with a little effort, that will save you a lot of effort in the long run.<P>Tonya

Tonya-With all due respect, I have seen all the John Lions tapes, horse whispering tapes etc. Read many a books on horses.... It wasnt the mare that was mean. It was a appy that got ****y when I made him tow the line!!! That was the trouble with some of these horses we had there is that they were "`SQUAW BROKE`"...... No pun intended....bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

bcat<P>I wasn't meaning you haven't seen anything like that or read anything like that, I had a quarterhorse mare that got nasty while I was away at school, and I had to sell her but I would have loved to try Dr. miller's technique. She actually bit part of my moms ear off, so I had no where to keep her.<P>I would like to see some John Lyons videos too, but I can't seem to find any around here, though I read a lot of his articles that come out in magazines. He seems pretty good too, I just need to find someone with his videos around here.<P>Pat Parelli is another good one, I was able to borrow a tape on the seven games, but I haven't found any of his other tapes.<P>Good Luck this hunting season <P>Tonya

Slayer & Bear Creek: Seem to be a lot of folks about that I would not loan a dog to, let alone a horse. Yes we pack around more than half our own weight once in a while, but it's not a day in day out deal. If one wants their animals on call for extended seasons and over a series of years, stick to the 10 to 12% range. What's wrong with making 2 trips? We're on vacation, not in a race!

Tonya-I have a couple John Lyons tapes if ya want to borrow them. Shoot me an email, I would be glad to share. 1 Minute!!! Sorry Charlie, but 10 percent of a 1000 pound horse is 100 pounds. Does this mean that a kid weighing no more than 70 pounds, plus the 30 pound saddle is all this horse can handle and hold up....... I am sorry buddy, but I have horses that are over 20 years old, that are still packing 200 to 300 pound loads every year, usually around 20 trips in and out in a season, and they havent shown any wear yet. None of these horses are over 1200 pounds...... I know people that blanket their horses every night too, but that is babying them WAY too much in my opoinion......What about the 280 pound hunters, plus the 50 pound saddle, plus gun, plus all his gear???????? ANd to pack the guy around every day about ten miles a day!!! Gimme a break!!!!!! Horses arent babies, they are horses!!!!! bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

You may be on vacation but not in the mountains! Sometimes you don't have a lot of time to do anything, unless you want to spend the winter in a remote valley somewhere. Talk to some of these experienced outfitters with clients in the mountains. <BR>-- no<P>Hunting seasons are short and the outfitters have several camps to tend, get hunters and game out fast. They have a short time to make a yearly budget. <p>[This message has been edited by need one (edited May 08, 2001).]

bcat,<P>that would be great if I could borrow them, is your e-mail address the one on the boykin outfitters page?<P>Tonya

Hi There<P> I am in a good mood, the guy who wanted me to train his colt wanted me to do it today. I did some ground work with the colt because he hasn't had too much handling, and then we rode, he didn't buck at all. <P>The guy was so impressed he wants me to train his other two fillies, I am just glad I am finally getting to ride again. He is planning on taking the colt in a poker ride this weekend, because he is doing so well under saddle on the first day. <P>Well now I have a horse to ride, he wants me to ride him this summer, and train him to work with cows too. <P>Well talk to everyone later, <BR>Tonya

Tonya-My email addy is dboykinunion-tel.com<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

Dang!....I get busy working for 3 or 4 days...and you people start having too much fun! <P>I saw the "Horse Whisperer! <P>I whispered to mine late last night...but I don't think he was listening! ......I whispered to him to move his butt over,....there was a new sheriff in town.....bought another registered Quarter horse ...16.2 .....1360lbs. He's even got a "reverse" on him...maybe that's what the extra cash was for! <BR>DS

There is a MAJOR difference between dead weight on a pack horse and having a rider on it's back. One of the hardest things you can do to a horse is to put a heavy load on him and let him stand there for any period of time. While this happens regularly with pack horses as others are being packed, etc. , a riding horse rarely goes for more than a couple of hours without getting some type of relief (ie. dismounting for lunch, a break etc.). Pack horses do not have that option, once they are loaded, they are loaded until they get to camp. In addition, dead weight rocks in all directions while traveling, while a person riding a horse balances himself/herself so that the horse does not have to work as hard. Try putting a pack on your back and leaving it on for 8-10 hours without removing it. It gets very tough. <BR>Also, pack horses have to work much harder than riding horses to get the load around obsticles in the trail, while this may seem negligable,it does add up. The other thing is that most of the time pack horses are tied together to form a string. It is always much more difficult for the horse at the rear of the string to keep up and negotiate obsticles that it is for the riding horse that is leading the string. I generally try to put the horses that are loaded the lightest at the tail end of the string, and the ones that are loaded the heaviest toward the front.<P>I limit the weight of our riders to 240 pounds. Even at that, when you add the weight of the saddle, pads, rifle, scabbord, coat, lunch, etc., you are pushing the limit of what is healthy for your horse. During hunting season when we are working the horses hard, I try to give them a break every day or two.<P>The bottom line is this: You can load as much weight as you want on your horse and they are such willing animals that they will probably carry it. You can get away with overloading horses for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you. Think about it, is loading your $2,000.00 horse with a few extra pounds of weight worth the chance you are taking of breaking down his back, legs, hooves or spirit? I guess it is a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves.

Got to agree with ya BCA on Dead weight/passenger weight to some extent.....On the other hand I dont believe in freeloaders either. Have ya weighed a half an elk lately? I dont bone elk out.....If they cant pack a half a bull elk for 3 to ten miles they might as well go to the purina dog food factory!! IN MY OPINION!!!! Ya sure can overload em, but the ten percent thing is a crock of BS!!!! SOrry...... bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

Bear Creek,...I'm listening....believe me I am! What you say makes sense,.....but only have two or three horses......I will probably push the envelope a little on the weight......say 20 to 25%....probably not smart......but I will never get my camp in if I can't throw at least 200 to 250 pounds on 'em. One weighs 1400...but he's on a diet! ....the other is said to be 1360.....but probably more like 1200 or so........20% would probably let me load 500 pounds are so on the two, which doesn't go far when your packing a camp for a week to 10 days! I plan to try and condition them up to this slowly.....hopefully I will get it worked out before the fall. I have been offered to borrow as many pack horses as I need from the guy I bought my first horse from. He raises rodeo stock of all kinds...his name is Jerry Ford, a well know racher around here. He has more than 60 head of horses, and several good packers. So that may be the perfect solution.......we'll see!<P>Thanks for all the help fellas...<BR>DS

Slayer-Ya didnt make a mistake by buying horses!!!! I have had mules and donkeys and have had ALOT less problems with the horses. Now I am sure MULE MEN would shoot my theory down, but different strokes for different folks I guess. The only thing I have to say about pack weights is this, I have packed my horses the same way for years and it hasnt hurt one yet. Ole Joe is kinda a dead head but it is because I rode him hard for ten days when he was two years old and Bedrocked him..... He isnt the fastest horse of the bunch, but he gets ya there bcat<P>------------------<BR>If you aint the lead dog the scenery never changes [img]http://www.hunttalk.com/icon/bcatrunningcat.gif.com/boykin][/img] <BR><A HREF="http://www.huntandlodge.com/Boykin/outfitter.html" TARGET=_blank>Boykin's Hunting <B>Homepage</B> </A>

I've packed some too, and would suggest either borrowing another horse or cutting down the weight a little rather than PLANNING to pack 200-250 pound loads. My 1200 pound gelding (in great condition) did pack a cow elk out that weighed 270 on the meat scale, but that was 4 miles out, we went slowly, and I would try not to do that again. Another thing to check into is the weight of your pack saddle. My sawbuck with canvas panniers lash cinch and manty (mantee?) goes about 70 lbs, but there are lighter rigs out there. <P>I know other people have different opinions. My point is, you don't need to go looking for trouble when packing: it will find you.<P>Dave

Bigram....I'm certainly not looking for trouble, just trying to get a camp in the backcountry. I would not even think twice about the 10% limit had I not experienced personally a pack team handle with no problem what so ever loads much greater than this. An average looking team of horses went in and out sevearl times with loads of greater poundage, and was in good spirits doing so. These horses were of average weight, and build,.......and were fed and cared for well.....and they performed as they were expected to. They were not asked to do anything they had not done dozens of times before, and both horses and outfitter knew exactly what to expect....as it should be. B'cat definitely knew his stuff, and knew what his horses could do for him,....and he never asked any more of them. All I want is to develope the same plan.....know what to expect from my horses, and for them to know what to expect from me......not that unreasonable, I don't think. I am not looking for trouble......only looking for a good time in the back country. Maybe I will have to sell these front range lard asses I bought and get a couple of those bionic Equine from southern Wyoming! <BR>DS

'Slayer,<P>Sounds like you're going into it with your<BR>eyes wide open, and you've certainly got <BR>lots of advice. Horses are a lot tougher<BR>than we sometimes think. Good luck. <P>Dave

Big Ram...thanks for your sincere luck.....my eyes are open, but I also know I will meet many unseen problems....as it goes with men and horses and pack trips. I've had the good fortune to go on a couple with an experienced guide....and there were still a few little gliches....I can just imagine the "little gliches" I'll run into! <P>But hopefully I'll look back on it all with no regrets.......so I'll go forward with my plans, full knowing there will be set backs, and eager to meet the challenge head on......<BR>DS