Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles 35 whelen load, still coming up short

"Who the heck carries a 26+ inch barrel around in a hunting gun unless it's a single shot?"

I do. The rifle is a Winchester M70 in .300 Win. mag. and it suits me just fine shooting 200 gr. Speer Hot Cores and 200 gr. Nosler Partions at 2930 and 2950 FPS respectively. Is very accurate with those loads and will reach out and touch something. All my 4 .300 Win. Mags have 26" barrels the Winchester mentioned and 3 Ruger #1 rifles, one "B" and two "S" versions. Frankly, I have not found the long barrel on the M70 to be much of a problem, even in some fairly thick stuff. I think the problem is a bit overblown.
Paul B.

Your obvious experience with these "OVERBORE" beauties almost matches your powder experiences. You'd have to be a "special gifts" reloader to find the 25/06 barely beating a 'Bob......

My point is that you are speaking completely out of your league. Velocity is the product of the pressure curve and coordinating that curve with barrel length is always a fair-to-middling idea. In particular, I was commenting on the falsehood of your previous statement. Best to speak of what you know and leave the rocket science to the scientists.....

Knowing you can't recall your previous statement, here it is:
Sometimes it's best to quit while you're ahead, but I suspect you've got a reply coming my way.

406, a simpe 'i disagree' would do. beig irrogant makes you look like a douche even if you are right.sorry. so bottom line is, a faster burnin powder probably wont make a rats azz differance for me correct? ill prob just stick w/ my 225PT's. i think i have room for a little more smoke out of them anyhow.

btw, i run mostly rem 9 1/2 mag primers. ive read tha p[rimers can and cannot make differances in velocity. whats your take.

If someone posts things that are absolute in nature, but appear humble, regardless of their validity then that's okay. Have someone post a observable and demonstrable fact and then you become arrogant. Gotta love the 'fire.

I should have gone right to the point. RL 15 is probably too slow to recognize max velocity in your tube. Give IMR 4064, 4895 and even TAC a try and I think you'll find more velocity, though you may not get 2400 fps from a 18.5 inch Whelen. FWIW, there are lots of ways to kill game with a Whelen and the 250 cup & cores no longer offer the advantage they once did--BTDT. Your 225 NPT is an okay choice, especially for deer size game, but the 200 TTSX is a great match for the Whelen, preferable IME to the 200 or 225 TSX or any NPT in the Whelen. I load it to 2800+ and it has accounted for moose, caribou, and a very large brown bear. I've killed a lot of critters (big & small) with a lot of cartridges and the Whelen so loaded is a tough combination to beat.

I do believe none other than Mule Deer himself has posted data here and stated that the 257 'bob will nip at the heals of a 25-06.

Maybe you should ask him.

The only way a "well loaded 257 'bob" nips on the heels (whatever that means) of a 25/06 is if the 25/06 is poorly loaded. I'm confident it happens as regular practice for many, but that says significantly more about the reloader than the cartridges in question.......

Oh, if just looking at trajectory figures and giving 3100fps to the Roberts, and 3400 fps to the 25-06 (not poorly loaded), then the Roberts will arrive at about 1 1/4" lower at 300 yards when given a 200 yd Zero.

I'd say that's what could be meant by "nipping at the heels."

Here you go: This comparison is the 7 Mouser with the .280 Rem.. It also addresses the "fast powder" myth.

By Mule Deer relating to a 7 x 57 vs a 280 discussion.

"I was the person who crunched the numbers and came up with the formula (approximate) that any increase or decrease in powder capacity results in 1/4 that increase in potential muzzle velocity, at the same pressure in the same bore size.

It is gratifying to see it quoted so much. Once I even saw it quoted as "the old 1/4 rule." I first published it in RIFLE or HANDLOADER (can't remember which) at most 10 years ago, which I guess qualifies as "old" in this era of the Internet.

I worked out the formula partly because of discussions like this. I had also grown weary of gun writers guessing how much "Ackley Improving" a round would increase the velocity.

The formula was developed by crunching the numbers from a bunch of handloading manuals. If you want to argue about it, feel free. But first spend a few days crunching numbers so we have something realistic to argue about.

The .280 has about 20% more powder capacity than the 7x57, with the same bullet seated to factory overall length (about 3.1" in the 7x57 and 3.35" in the .280). Exactly how much depends on
brass weight, but 20% is pretty close.

Thus the .280 can drive bullets about 5% faster when loaded to the same pressure, in the same barrel length. If the 7x57 is capable of 2700 fps with a 160-grain bullet, then the .280 will drive the same 160 to 2835. If the 7x57 is capable of 2900 with a 140, then the .280 can drive the same bullet to 3045, again everything else being equal.

I see that somebody has brought up the old myth about needing a longer barrel in the .280, to burn up all that slow powder. This is indeed an old one, but the truth is that just about all the smokeless powder that's going to burn in a rifle round (99%+) burns by the time the bullet has traveled maybe 2 inches in front of the chamber, exactly how far depending on various factors. The bullet continues to accelerate because the gas produced by the powder continues to expand, not because the powder is still burning.

In reality, the powder that produces the most velocity in a 26" barrel also produces the highest velocity in an 18" barrel.
This has been proven over and over again. In fact, the LEAST loss of any load's velocity in shorter barrels generally comes from a combination of slow-burning powder and heavy bullets."

I've found the same thing in comparing 22" barreled 257's and 25/06's, and if RL-15 is "too slow", getting more speed out of a faster powder from a 35 Whelen is going to be from an increase in pressure. 15 is going to get you there before pressure signs (other than the most important, the chrony speed).

My Hodgdon load magazine has data for several rifle cartridges in standard and short 15" test barrels. There isn't any significant reordering of powders vs. performance when changing the barrel lengths.

When pressed to the extreme (handguns), there isn't either.