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Originally Posted by derby_dude
I stand corrected.


You should be used to this by now.


Travis


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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
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Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by derby_dude
I stand corrected.


You should be used to this by now.


Travis



LMAO ROTF



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Sorry, but I chose to defend my life and those I love. Nothing is worse letting a bad bad guy take your life or the life of someone you love. I would deal with the law with as much vigor as humanly possible. The laws don't scare me as much as seeing my wife or child or even myself be a victim to some demon who has chosen to hurt me or mine.

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AMEN!!


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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal

Would I shoot someone over possessions? no, probably not...but remember the old adage about letting people get close to you. Ayoob I know teaches officers that a man with a knife 15 feet away can likely charge, and reach you before you can draw and fire. The Mythbusters TV show, FWIW a few months ago, tested that theory themselves, and demonstrated just that same scenario.


It's not just Ayoob.

A number of years ago a FTU officer in SoCal (IIRC, it was LAPD) named Dennis Tueller was talking to some guys about the "21-foot rule". Basically, they and most agencies were training their cops to consider anyone inside 21 feet (7 yards) as a potential contact-weapon threat in any police confrontation. Dennis told me at a conference a few years back that he did some "thinking out loud" about how valid that distance was.

So he and the other instructors set up an experiment: one instructor would run, and the other one would draw his pistol and fire a round (not at his buddy, obviously) to see how dangerous 21 feet actually was. The guy drawing and firing was not allowed to start his draw stroke until he saw the runner start toward him.

What they found was an adult male of average cop physical condition could close to contact-weapon distance in about 1.5 seconds. This wasn't good, as the average cop can't draw his sidearm from a retention holster in much under 2.5 seconds, and many cops in my experience are doing well to draw and fire in under 3 seconds.

The "Tueller Drill" has become justifiably famous as a demonstration of the distances and times that may be involved in a deadly force situation where the aggressor/attacker has a contact weapon. LEA's all over the country use this as part of their UoDF training.


I'm no expert on the subject, but as a lawyer, I try to stay in touch with the issues.

On this point, I saw a TV show a few years ago which discussed this one -- and the fact that in many prisons, inmates actually practice charging a "target" individual to see if they can beat a draw.

The TV show demonstrated this, with real inmates, hardened criminals. As I recall, the distance was about 15-20 feet. The inmates' technique was to do a quick judo-like somersault to get below the line of sight, then come up to grab or knife the target.

It worked ten out of ten times.


Norman Solberg
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Originally Posted by APDDSN0864


Doc,

I went through one of then Sgt. Teuller's classes long, long ago and learned that the reason he and his fellow officers ran the simulations was because one of his troops shot and killed a knife-wielding man in SLC and the D.A. was bowing to public pressure and was going to charge the officer with homicide. So, Sgt. Teuller and his other shiftmates taped the results of their findings and thus, the "Teuller Drill" was born.
He is a good man and a great supervisor.

Ed


Ed: that's not the story Dennis told me when we discussed it, IIRC, but it was a few years ago and there was a lot of other stuff going on in that session. I don't doubt your report a bit. Sgt. Tueller is that kind of guy.


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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by derby_dude
I stand corrected.


You should be used to this by now.


Travis


Hey, stop that Chitt. I see another post like that Dr Kratz is gonna have to redo my stitches.

I ROR GI.


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Hello
To the Original Poster's reply, It all depend's on where you Live... and I am Very Proud to be from a State that is first and foremost Gun Friendly, and has set forth a Self defense law where we are no Longer Prey or an easy Mark to criminals. In The state of Tennessee you do Not have to have a conseal carry permit. It is Legal for you to own and Posess a handgun here without any Kind of hand gun Permit so long as it is not carried consealed or Loaded in your Vehicle when Traveling. This Means you can Purchase a hand gun Privately from any other Tennessee state person without Registering it through our Nashville handgun License department. Tennessee also has the Stand Your Ground law set forth. This allow's a person to protect his Life if Threatened up to and including Lethal Force. Below is how our state set forth the self Protection Law's and if lethal force has to be used to protect one's life, We also have law's to protect us as to Family Member's trying to sue us for the loss of one of their Family members. No special courses needed in the state of Tennessee if you come looking for Trouble, chances are your outcome will Not be Good for you... When you take our Tennessee handgun carry class they tell us it is totally Legal and Justified to protect your self and family if your life is Threatened. I shoot a Lot at Least Three times a week at my local Range with my Carry and Target revolver's at distances from 25 Yards out to a Hundred yards and do very well with my Group's when doing so. It would not be a good idea for a bad guy to try to invade my Home, car or Threaten my self , my wife or my Kids. TheGeneral.


Tennessee also has a �Stand Your Ground� law. The Tennessee Legislature passed a version of such law in 2007. Part 1 of this column discussed the creation and passage of the law. Part 2 takes a look at the language and operation of the law.


Q. What exactly does Tennessee�s Stand Your Ground law say and mean?

First, the words �stand your ground� do not actually appear in the law, which is simply titled �Self-defense� as it appears at Tennessee Code Annotated section 39-11-611.


Until the passage of Tennessee�s �Stand Your Ground� law in 2007, state law historically required that persons who were legally at home must not use deadly force on an illegal intruder if he or she could safely retreat.


As of 2007, Tennessee�s �Self-defense� law now expressly states as follows:
�A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity, and
�Who is in a place where the person has a right to be,
�Legally has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person

�When and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.�

Q. Does the law have a special provision in the case of forced entry into a residence, business, dwelling or vehicle?

Yes. Tennessee�s �Stand Your Ground� law also says:

�An occupant of a residence, business, dwelling, or vehicle is legally protected

�And is allowed to use force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury

�Against another person who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, business, dwelling or vehicle �When the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.


The law states that the person who is using defensive force in such a situation �is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury.�


The law also expands the physical areas where the law applies:
�The term �business� includes the interior and exterior of the business.
�The term �dwelling� means a building or conveyance of any kind that is designed for an capable of use by people, such as an �RV� (recreational vehicle used for camping or travel lodging), and any attached porch to a building or conveyance.
�The term �residence� also includes any dwelling, building or other structure within the yard, or �curtilage� of the residence. ("Curtilage" means �the area surrounding a dwelling that is necessary, convenient and habitually used for family purposes and for those activities associated with the sanctity of a person's home.�)


IMPORTANT NOTE: The law does NOT allow defensive force to be used in several key situations:
�Against a person who has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, business, residence, or vehicle; or
�Against a person who is attempting to remove his or her child or grandchild, or who is attempting to remove a child for whom he or she has lawful custody or guardianship; or
�Against a law enforcement officer who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, business, residence, or vehicle in the performance of the officer's official duties.



Yeah, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death ,... I Shall Fear no Evil, as I Always have with me Me my Loaded Smith & Wesson "..
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Originally Posted by generalstuart
Hello
To the Original Poster's reply, It all depend's on where you Live... and I am Very Proud to be from a State that is first and foremost Gun Friendly, and has set forth a Self defense law where we are no Longer Prey or an easy Mark to criminals.


Gen'l Stuart... with all due respect for your fine collection of pistolas, and your knowledge of the S&W revolver in a historical context, I must submit that you missed the point of the OP.

Even with enlightened laws being in effect, the following statements (quoted from my OP) are far more likely than otherwise:

Originally Posted by DocRocket

7. The police are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to arrest and charge people who shoot other people, and then let the legal system sort it out. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.

8. The prosecutors are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to put you in prison for the rest of your life, whether you deserve to be there or not. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.


Sorry, but that's the reality. Prepare for it.



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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by generalstuart
Hello
To the Original Poster's reply, It all depend's on where you Live... and I am Very Proud to be from a State that is first and foremost Gun Friendly, and has set forth a Self defense law where we are no Longer Prey or an easy Mark to criminals.


Gen'l Stuart... with all due respect for your fine collection of pistolas, and your knowledge of the S&W revolver in a historical context, I must submit that you missed the point of the OP.

Even with enlightened laws being in effect, the following statements (quoted from my OP) are far more likely than otherwise:

Originally Posted by DocRocket

7. The police are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to arrest and charge people who shoot other people, and then let the legal system sort it out. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.

8. The prosecutors are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to put you in prison for the rest of your life, whether you deserve to be there or not. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.


Sorry, but that's the reality. Prepare for it.









Hello Doc
All do respect here, I did not miss any of the Point, and again I say it depend's on where you live, and who is Handling the situation. We do not have any Walker Texas Ranger's here in Knoxville. The city cop's know the law as well as us citizens. The fact of the matter is, they will respond, you will be questioned, they have an Investigation to complete. You "May" or May Not be asked to go down town for further investigation, by city detectives Then once they determine that the defense move was justified, you will be Released. I have seen it several times in the past with other's that protect them self's, or property from Hoodlum's or Thieves here in Knoxville to Only lead to No charges were Placed upon the shooter. Case closed, no follow up's, have a nice day and Thank's for riding the city of crime, and Tax Payer Trash that cost's everyone else here their hard earned dollars... I also shoot with Several Policemen here and have asked their opinion on this type of ordeal, and they all coincide the same that if your Life is Threatened, you certainly have the right to protect your self or family member's without any legal repercussions there of...What May be Standard shooting self defense Protocal in Texas, sure aint the way that it is Handled in Tennessee, Nor the out come of it... TheGeneral


Yeah, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death ,... I Shall Fear no Evil, as I Always have with me Me my Loaded Smith & Wesson "..
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All due respect, GeneralS, and thanks for your reply... but I expect you live in a somewhat sheltered situation. Reality for most folks is a lot harder than your viewpoint, and if I may be so bold, I expect it'd be a lot harder for YOU should you have to deal with John Law if'n you actually shot someboy.

I

Having a fine gun collection don't translate across the pond to where folks get shot and killed on a regular basis.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Words to live by. Boy Scouts and all that.

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Originally Posted by DocRocket
All due respect, GeneralS, and thanks for your reply... but I expect you live in a somewhat sheltered situation. Reality for most folks is a lot harder than your viewpoint, and if I may be so bold, I expect it'd be a lot harder for YOU should you have to deal with John Law if'n you actually shot someboy.

I

Having a fine gun collection don't translate across the pond to where folks get shot and killed on a regular basis.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Words to live by. Boy Scouts and all that.


Hello DocRocket
Having a Fine Gun collection has "Nothing to do with Tennessee's self defense Law's period" and I sure don't live a Sheltered life as you have Labeled me to have. After 26 Pages of responses it is clear to see " YOU Sir, " are the one that lives a sheltered life Believing that Texas self defense Law's apply to everyone in other area's of the United States... Well, I am Here to correct you that your Theory Does Not apply to anyone in the State of Tennessee and to prove my Point, here is Three justified self defense cases where the Shooter walked and No Charge's were placed, Nor were the families awarded any cases to sue the shooter of said cases, as we are protected from such frivolous law suite's that defend the shooter and his family member's in self defense cases, both in a criminal court and civil law suite court's. Our crime Rate had hit an all time low since Tennessee changed the self defense law's in 2007 as I out lined in one of my Previous responses, but evidently you did not get that Fact either ? I am done arguing with you about it as it is very Plain to see, that I live in a State where you are free to use deadly force without any legal repercussions, so here your Boy Scout Theory of "Be Prepared" Certainly fall's on Deaf Ear's & show's No merit and I Base my Theories on Fact Not assumptions. . Cheer's, TheGeneral.



NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) � Metro Nashville Police are investigating a shooting that occurred as a man and his nephew struggled inside a home.

Police said Friday that no charges have been filed in the death of 55-year-old James Leon Ridley, Jr., who died after being shot by 31-year-old Leondra Ridley.

Police said the younger man was called Thursday night by other family members who said James Ridley showed up drunk and violent. When Leondra Ridley arrived, a woman and her children, ages 4, 6 and 7, were hiding in a closet in fear of James Ridley.

Police said Leondra Ridley told them he shot his uncle in self-defense. Police said the younger man has a valid pistol permit, remained at the scene and cooperated with detectives.

The victim was shot once in the chest.

� 2012, The Associated Press.





LOUDON � A Loudon County jury late this afternoon found Norman Whitton not guilty of second-degree murder.

The 71-year-old was charged in Loudon County Criminal Court in connection with the shooting death of 74-year-old Larry Butcher on April 15, 2010 in Tellico Village, a retirement village where both men resided.

Whitton told Loudon County Sheriff's investigators at the time of the incident he was driving on Toqua Road when he honked his horn at Butcher, who was driving a golf cart.

According to Whitton, Butcher swung his golf cart around to the side of Whitton's stopped car, jumped off, reached through the open window and choked Whitton before Whitton pulled his .38-caliber handgun and shot him.


Jurors returned the verdict after deliberating about two hours. Neither family wished to comment and both sat quietly on either side of the courtroom waiting afterward for the jury to leave the building.

The defense chose not to present witnesses today and rested its case after the state rested its case against Whitton.Butcher died from a single gunshot wound to the chest, a forensic pathologist testified.

In his closing argument, Nichols said people honk their car horns all the time but do not expect to be attacked.

"You have to ask yourself, what would I do if someone stuck their hands through my window?"

Nichols said all the evidence showed Butcher was intoxicated, and because the trajectory of the bullet was down, it showed he was leaning into the window.

Regarding self-defense, Nichols said the question jurors had to consider was whether it was reasonable to believe Whitton feared for his life.


"There is a presumption if someone attacks you in your car or house, you are in fear for your life," he said.

Nichols said state law dictates that evidence is produced of self-defense, the burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Norman Whitton did not act in self-defense.



The jury got the case shortly before 4 p.m., and began deliberating.

More details as they develop online and in the Thursday News Sentinel.

� 2012, Knoxville News Sentinel Co.


Police have to knock on wood just to talk about it.

Now they're holding their breath.

Knoxville logged its lowest homicide rate in a decade last year - 17 killings in a city that typically sees 20-25 per year. Police closed all but three of those cases. They have worked two killings so far since the new year: a stabbing blamed as the result of a husband-wife argument and Saturday's fatal shooting in North Knoxville.

"Other than hard work and the grace of God, we don't really have an explanation," said Knoxville Police Department Lt. Doug Stiles, commander of the Violent Crimes Unit. "We can target some crimes. If we get complaints from a community, we can focus on drug-dealing all day long, for example. But murder's so unpredictable that no matter how good you are, you can't really prevent it."

Outside the city limits, Knox County Sheriff's Office investigators logged a few more violent deaths than usual last year - 11 killings in a county that typically averages about a half-dozen - but closed every case.
A single case accounted for three of those deaths, and another accounted for two.

The county's bloodiest case in years happened during a home break-in July 24 on Highland Circle in South Knox County when authorities say Ronald H. Carter III, a 20-year-old Marine awaiting discharge, and Benjamin Keith Fowler, a 34-year-old felon, blasted their way inside and killed Robert Sanders Doyal, 31, and Judy Adams, 63. The homeowner, 61-year-old Larry Doyal, shot back, killing Carter and wounding Fowler. Doyal wasn't charged.



Another break-in accounted for two more deaths when Douglas Jordan III, 20, told deputies he shot Jimmy Cannon, 39, and Adam Peiffer, 25, after he came home June 27 to his trailer on Love Lane and caught them stuffing pillowcases with his belongings. Prosecutors filed no charges in that case.


That's a total of 11 killings with only eight crime-scenes.

"So it's still pretty much along the usual pattern," said KCSO Capt. Clyde Cowan, commander of the Major Crimes Unit. "In most cases, the victim and suspect either knew each other somehow or were related."

City and county numbers fit with the national trend. Statistics show violent crime across the country remains at lows not seen since the 1960s, even as the economy still sputters to emerge from a lingering recession.

"It isn't just homicide," said Kenna Quinet, a criminal justice professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. "Almost everything is at an all-time low. We don't assault, burgle, rob or anything else at the levels of 20 years ago. Unemployment has never consistently been a good predictor of crime. If you or I become unemployed tomorrow, we're not going to turn to a life of crime. We'd find a way to adjust and get by.

"Our population is aging, and that may explain some of the crime decline. Some of it may be the relatively short-term effects of mass incarceration, but those effects could go away when people come out of prison."

Not everyone takes comfort in the numbers. Some residents still believe crimes are up. City Councilman Nick Pavlis demanded an answer last year from police after a string of home robberies that drew attention in South Knoxville, although KPD statistics suggested the city might be safer than ever.

Police blame the media.

"What sells is sensation," said KPD Deputy Chief Gary Price, commander of the Criminal Investigation Division. "We did have some dramatic crimes last year, and they got exceptional coverage."

Some of the most headline-grabbing cases included the April 19 shooting at Parkwest Medical Center in West Knoxville, when Abdo Ibssa, a mentally-ill store owner, opened fire with a stolen pistol outside the hospital. The shots killed Rachel Wattenbarger, 40, and wounded two other people.

Police say that's one of the few cases last year of a victim and killer who apparently had never met before. Others included DaChanna Dotson, a 17-year-old Austin-East High School student hit by a stray bullet June 9 as she carried her baby nephew to safety on Porter Avenue; and Davida Nicholson, a 46-year-old former Anderson County corrections officer shot three days before Christmas during what police called a botched holdup outside the TVA Credit Union on Wilson Road.

Experts say the media are less to blame for perceptions than the public hunger for crime news.

"Our interest in crime is peaking at the same time that crime is at its lowest levels in our lifetime," said Quinet, the criminal justice professor. "It's the same reason you stop and rubberneck at an accident scene. Some people are just fascinated by violence and by the ultimate darkness in other human beings."

Not every case amounted to murder charges. Private citizens fired and killed four times in self-defense last year - three of those cases in South Knox County and one in South Knoxville, when Jamie Franklin, 21, shot a robber struggling with her husband, Jonathan, during a break-in Nov. 22 at their home on Colonial Drive, No charges were filed.

Police also filed no charges when Dennis Audley Spivey, 49, died after a fight June 14 at his nephew's home on Caldwell Avenue in North Knoxville.

Officers killed two people in self-defense last year - Robert "Bob" Kelly, 56, who died in a gunfight Feb. 24 with KCSO deputies outside his home on Lone Star Way, and Chesney, the S&S robber, who fired at KPD officers from under a bedspread Sept. 3 as they searched for him inside an apartment in the Walter P. Taylor Homes housing project. Internal reviews found both those shootings justified


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I believe that Doc's point is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. One of your citations involves a jury acquitting someone, which means the shooter went to trial.


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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
I believe that Doc's point is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


Prezackly.


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If you live in a metropolitan area and kill someone with a firearm, be prepared to be treated like a common criminal unless you are politically "well connected" and/or have a lot of money. Do not rely on "friends" in law enforcement to help you either, they probably won't. Say nothing and get the best lawyer you can't afford.


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Originally Posted by timbo762
If you live in a metropolitan area and kill someone with a firearm, be prepared to be treated like a common criminal unless you are politically "well connected" and/or have a lot of money. Do not rely on "friends" in law enforcement to help you either, they probably won't. Say nothing and get the best lawyer you can't afford.
Excellent advice there.. Good post.


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timbo... it ain't just in metro areas.

I have a good friend who works as a detective in a rural Indiana county. He's as staunch a 2nd-Amendment man as I am, and runs a gun store and shooting range as well.

But he told me a couple years ago that it is pretty much standard investigating procedure across this country for police to treat EVERY homicide, including firearms homicides, as a murder investigation. He told me that even if the shooter was someone he knows and trusts as much as he does me, he'd still detain me, cuff me, take me in to the station for questioning and probably spend a night at least in a cell while he and his crime scene team went over the scene with a fine-toothed comb.

Now, if that's my friend's take on it in rural Indiana, you have to expect that this is a very real possible outcome ANYWHERE in America.

As I said in the OP, just because YOU think you're a Good Guy doesn't mean you're likely to be treated as such.


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Originally Posted by DocRocket
...I have a good friend who works as a detective...He told me that even if the shooter was someone he knows and trusts as much as he does me, he'd still detain me, cuff me, take me in to the station for questioning and probably spend a night at least in a cell while he and his crime scene team went over the scene with a fine-toothed comb...


Some friend! grin


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Yea Doc, I hear what you say and cops are cops. The difference is most larger cities have DA's controlled by liberal politicians, and their idea of showing how tough they are on crime is to prosecute someone with a clean record that defended them self with a firearm. They don't even care if they win, because between bail and lawyer fees you'll be out around $20,000.00 no matter the outcome. Still, better judged by twelve than carried by six.

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Originally Posted by timbo762
Yea Doc, I hear what you say and cops are cops. The difference is most larger cities have DA's controlled by liberal politicians, and their idea of showing how tough they are on crime is to prosecute someone with a clean record that defended them self with a firearm. They don't even care if they win, because between bail and lawyer fees you'll be out around $20,000.00 no matter the outcome. Still, better judged by twelve than carried by six.
That about sums up the situation.

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