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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
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Yea Doc, I hear what you say and cops are cops. The difference is most larger cities have DA's controlled by liberal politicians, and their idea of showing how tough they are on crime is to prosecute someone with a clean record that defended them self with a firearm. They don't even care if they win, because between bail and lawyer fees you'll be out around $20,000.00 no matter the outcome. Still, better judged by twelve than carried by six.
That about sums up the situation. Except if you have to actually go to trial on a Manslaughter or Murder charge, your legal fees will be closer to $100K than $20K. Much depends on the facts of the case, especially how well you initially tell your side of it. Also, much of your costs will be related to what experts you have to hire in order to make your defense. Ballistics experts are $100 to $300 per hour. God forbid that you need a medical doctor to work your case AND testify at trial. While a lawyer around here will bill $225-$250 per hour, I've seen physicians bill $600/hr. Seriously. Anyway, as much as I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, let me just offer up this: 1. I have not taken any of the so-called "high end" self-defense courses. However... 2. I have spoken directly to friends that have taken these courses. They report that the practical gun training is very good--better than what you get in a "typical" course, but NOT better to the point that it justifies the expense. 3. What makes "high end" courses so expensive (in part) is the claimed "expertise" in preparing yourself legally for a self-defense shooting and what to do after such a shooting. Unfortunately, these "high end" classes seem to be rather hit-and-miss as to how accurate/useful the information is. One friend of mine (an attorney) took an Ayoob class and came back shaking his head. He said "I paid extra to get war stories and bad legal advice." Another friend (also an attorney) went to Front Sight for a week and came back very happy with the gun training, but very concerned about the legal advice. For example, the course had each student write a letter to himself (and mail it) explaining why he would to defend himself with deadly force if necessary. The instructor said it was to later use in court if you ever got charged after a self-defense shooting because it would explain your intent prior to the shooting. But, such a letter is inadmissible as self-serving hearsay in my home state. My friend is a criminal defense attorney and has defended murder cases--he's well-versed in evidence and criminal procedure. The letter is useless in a courtroom. 3. If you are worried about legal consequences of a self-defense shooting, consult with an experienced criminal defense lawyer licensed in your state. The lawyer will give you the best preparation as to how to best position yourself, legally, for a self-defense shooting. 4. Again, "high-end" courses are fine. Take them if you can afford them, but get your legal advice from somebody who is licensed to give legal advice. (Unless your high-end instructor agrees to serve your prison sentence for you if it turns out he's wrong...) Carry on!
Wade
"Let's Roll!" - Todd Beamer 9/11/01.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,697 Likes: 16
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,697 Likes: 16 |
Yea Doc, I hear what you say and cops are cops. The difference is most larger cities have DA's controlled by liberal politicians, and their idea of showing how tough they are on crime is to prosecute someone with a clean record that defended them self with a firearm. They don't even care if they win, because between bail and lawyer fees you'll be out around $20,000.00 no matter the outcome. Still, better judged by twelve than carried by six.
That about sums up the situation. Except if you have to actually go to trial on a Manslaughter or Murder charge, your legal fees will be closer to $100K than $20K. Much depends on the facts of the case, especially how well you initially tell your side of it. Also, much of your costs will be related to what experts you have to hire in order to make your defense. Ballistics experts are $100 to $300 per hour. God forbid that you need a medical doctor to work your case AND testify at trial. While a lawyer around here will bill $225-$250 per hour, I've seen physicians bill $600/hr. Seriously. Anyway, as much as I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, let me just offer up this: 1. I have not taken any of the so-called "high end" self-defense courses. However... 2. I have spoken directly to friends that have taken these courses. They report that the practical gun training is very good--better than what you get in a "typical" course, but NOT better to the point that it justifies the expense. 3. What makes "high end" courses so expensive (in part) is the claimed "expertise" in preparing yourself legally for a self-defense shooting and what to do after such a shooting. Unfortunately, these "high end" classes seem to be rather hit-and-miss as to how accurate/useful the information is. One friend of mine (an attorney) took an Ayoob class and came back shaking his head. He said "I paid extra to get war stories and bad legal advice." Another friend (also an attorney) went to Front Sight for a week and came back very happy with the gun training, but very concerned about the legal advice. For example, the course had each student write a letter to himself (and mail it) explaining why he would to defend himself with deadly force if necessary. The instructor said it was to later use in court if you ever got charged after a self-defense shooting because it would explain your intent prior to the shooting. But, such a letter is inadmissible as self-serving hearsay in my home state. My friend is a criminal defense attorney and has defended murder cases--he's well-versed in evidence and criminal procedure. The letter is useless in a courtroom. 3. If you are worried about legal consequences of a self-defense shooting, consult with an experienced criminal defense lawyer licensed in your state. The lawyer will give you the best preparation as to how to best position yourself, legally, for a self-defense shooting. 4. Again, "high-end" courses are fine. Take them if you can afford them, but get your legal advice from somebody who is licensed to give legal advice. (Unless your high-end instructor agrees to serve your prison sentence for you if it turns out he's wrong...) Carry on! I took the NRA course (Defensive Handgun) around 1980. Twenty hours or so of range time, one-on-one with the instructor (i.e., I was the only student), at $20.00 per hour. Instructor was a retired Deputy Sheriff. No mention was made of any legal considerations if you have to defend yourself, but that information can be acquired for free to anyone who wants to know.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,009
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,009 |
I like the NRA classes. A lot of bang for the buck.
And I agree: Quality information doesn't have to be bought. Just make sure it is what it purports to be.
Wade
"Let's Roll!" - Todd Beamer 9/11/01.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
For example, the course had each student write a letter to himself (and mail it) explaining why he would to defend himself with deadly force if necessary. The instructor said it was to later use in court if you ever got charged after a self-defense shooting because it would explain your intent prior to the shooting.
I can see it now: Client to attorney: "Okay, I understand why you're telling me we can't use the letter at the trial, but I did show it to the police the night of the shooting. This is a copy. They kept the original." Attorney: "Holy Mary, Mother of Pearl, are you [bleeping] kidding me?????!!!!!"
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 884
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 884 |
A lot of self defense training will go a long way to prove you were planing for a deadly force encounter, and might make some jurors think you were planning to shoot someone. Read up and practice on your own. All the training in the world will not guaranty the out come of a fight, and the one with the strongest will to survive usually prevails. Use the same type of ammo as your local law enforcement uses, or as close as you can get. If you call 911, simply report there has been a shooting, the location, and nothing else. Once the police arrive, you have no friends. Identify yourself to law enforcement as required, then shut up, get a lawyer, and let your lawyer answer ALL the questions.
Rich or poor, it pays to have money.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,158 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,158 Likes: 2 |
3. If you are worried about legal consequences of a self-defense shooting, consult with an experienced criminal defense lawyer licensed in your state. The lawyer will give you the best preparation as to how to best position yourself, legally, for a self-defense shooting.
Note bold... Best advice yet.. A lot of self defense training will go a long way to prove you were planing for a deadly force encounter, and might make some jurors think you were planning to shoot someone. The proper reply (in court, with council's consent) would be, "No, my plans were to survive for my family." Read up and practice on your own. All the training in the world will not guaranty the out come of a fight, and the one with the strongest will to survive usually prevails. Use the same type of ammo as your local law enforcement uses, or as close as you can get. If you call 911, simply report there has been a shooting, the location, and nothing else. Once the police arrive, you have no friends. Identify yourself to law enforcement as required, then shut up, get a lawyer, and let your lawyer answer ALL the questions. Absolutely - #1 priority..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
That is EXCELLENT Waders and right on target.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,466
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,466 |
took an Ayoob class and came back shaking his head. He said "I paid extra to get war stories and bad legal advice." That's not the first time I've heard this first hand.
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