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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
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My dad (now 70) has never been a "shotgun guy", and consequently I not either. I've tried to become one, through sheer grit and ignorance (and a Trius thrower), and am probably a lot better than my dad, but I still stink overall. A few years ago I started chasing quail each fall with my 28ga Wingmaster, and as expected, I miss a lot of birds, but still enjoy the experience------------though admittedly I'd feel even better with more birds in my vest. Some days I shoot better than others, but there's so much hiking between shots, that I'm really doing more for my health than my skill.
Anyway my shotgunning stinks, and my dad's even more so. I've read and re-read Brister's book, and just bought a copy for my dad who's recently decided shooting skeet might be a fun way to enjoy his retirement------------or maybe just wants to finally learn the shotgun. He called a couple days ago asking about Brister's BB gun technique, and wondered if I'd "get on the internet" and learn if it really works. His question (that I couldn't answer) is how well does the Daisy BB gun have to "fit"-----------should it replicate a true adult shotgun fit? In poking around the net, I discovered the Leon Measures Shoot Where You Look program which seems similar to Brister's approach, and gets some decent reviews, but I'd love to get some more feedback from you guys. An instructor named John Woolley also has a DVD, but I can't find reviews of it.
I realize my dad (and I) should have some professional instruction, and probably sooner than later. But does this sightless BB gun practice have any merit, and can it help to build a good foundation prior to live instruction. From what I've read, a lot of this "point shooting" approach involves trigger time, and BBs are much cheaper than flats of AA shells. BUT I (we) don't want to ingrain bad habits that become tough to undo.
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Lessons would be great but if you dont want to spend the money on lessons join your local trap and skeet club. There will me more advice there than you need but if you stick at it you will learn to shoot. My advice would be to join the local club and watch for the guy who consistently shoots good scores, get to know the guy and see if he will give you some pointers. Try, if you can, to find a solid shooter that will help and subscribe to his way of shooting. One of the problems you will run into is that every guy has �his� way of shooting and you cant try em all right away. So try find one guy that can shoot and let him help, that will get you where you want to be faster than having 4 other guys on a line all telling you different things and confusing the crap out of you.
It�s a magazine not a clip......
Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least.�
- Lord Chesterfield. 1750
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
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My dad has a local Skeet club, but all I've got here is Trap. The two issues I've got with trap are; all birds are flying low and away, and the members of my local club aren't fun to hang around. When I get more time I'll check out Idaho's skeet and sporting clays ranges. It'll involved 90+ minutes of driving, but really open up my options.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2006
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Even if the local guys are duds its still trigger time. Better to hit that place once a week and a great club once a month then a great club once a month. Heck who knows maybe they need a guy like you to cheer them the heck up!
As for trap shooting its a part of the game you need to learn. Skeet and trap are cheap and a great place to start. I try to get a trap or skeet line line befor I shoot a sporting clays tournment, good warm up and again, its trigger time....
It�s a magazine not a clip......
Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least.�
- Lord Chesterfield. 1750
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Joined: Dec 2011
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I agree with passport - trigger time. I hunted with a shotgun all my life until I got in my 40's and stopped. I was never real good. Wife and I picked up trap this year and we both started hitting under 10 each round. I am about 6 months in now and the last two rounds Ive shot I am 50 for 50. She started later and had never shot before and she is in the high teens now after about 3 months. We just shoot a lot.
That said, the gun, training and education are all part of the process.
Shoot a lot and be safe.
Jim
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2008
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My dad (now 70) has never been a "shotgun guy", and consequently I not either. I've tried to become one, through sheer grit and ignorance (and a Trius thrower), and am probably a lot better than my dad, but I still stink overall. A few years ago I started chasing quail each fall with my 28ga Wingmaster, and as expected, I miss a lot of birds, but still enjoy the experience------------though admittedly I'd feel even better with more birds in my vest. Some days I shoot better than others, but there's so much hiking between shots, that I'm really doing more for my health than my skill.
Anyway my shotgunning stinks, and my dad's even more so. I've read and re-read Brister's book, and just bought a copy for my dad who's recently decided shooting skeet might be a fun way to enjoy his retirement------------or maybe just wants to finally learn the shotgun. He called a couple days ago asking about Brister's BB gun technique, and wondered if I'd "get on the internet" and learn if it really works. His question (that I couldn't answer) is how well does the Daisy BB gun have to "fit"-----------should it replicate a true adult shotgun fit? In poking around the net, I discovered the Leon Measures Shoot Where You Look program which seems similar to Brister's approach, and gets some decent reviews, but I'd love to get some more feedback from you guys. An instructor named John Woolley also has a DVD, but I can't find reviews of it.
I realize my dad (and I) should have some professional instruction, and probably sooner than later. But does this sightless BB gun practice have any merit, and can it help to build a good foundation prior to live instruction. From what I've read, a lot of this "point shooting" approach involves trigger time, and BBs are much cheaper than flats of AA shells. BUT I (we) don't want to ingrain bad habits that become tough to undo.
Thanks in advance for your answers. There's no place better to start than with Brister. My recommendation is to now put yourself into the hands of a good instructor (most shooting establishments have one or two around), get the basics right. As to your specific question about the BB gun, it does work, and will help to refine hand/eye coordination. But to the shotgunning business, getting the technique right from the start is desired. Most folks don't do this, and many wind up having to unlearn bad technique/habits and move to good ones. I'd worry less about precision in gun fit just yet, refine stance, gun mount, swing, etc. You can do alot of the basics at home in front of a mirror...feet about shoulder width, or slightly less, apart; most weight on forward foot; no extreme "leans" (as you'll frequently see on a skeet range); practice gun mount (slow at first, faster only as technique gets smoothed out). Closing eyes can confirm your proper mount. Once the basics are ingrained, buy shells by the case and shoot alot. One word of caution...be careful of the self proclaimed experts (it's one thing to shoot well, quite another to coach). These folks will often frustrate and get in the way.
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Yes, getting the basic form down in a consistently repeatable way is the first step, score keeping is secondary. Then you have a good foundation upon which to refine your technique. Clay games are more about consistency than anything which means a lot of repetition/practice.
There are two bad habits I see that are about tied in popularity. First is not maintaining head position relative to the barrel when swinging. It's usually called head-lifting but it's more than that. On the mount you fix your head on the stock (firmly, with some pressure) so your dominant eye is aligned with the barrel. Your head has to move with the stock when you swing to maintain that alignment so the barrel points where you look. You need a coach for that, often a shooter thinks he's locked into the stock all the way through the shot when he isn't.
Second is a strong instinct to aim. You're taught that the muzzle needs to be in a particular relationship to the target to compensate for angles - lead - and so forth. So it's natural to try to consciously see that relationship before you shoot. That makes your swing erratic and destroys your lead with the swing-through method. Focus on the target and just shoot it, allowing your subconscious to check the alignment with the target. When you miss doing that it's natural to revert back to aiming but actually it's a matter of training your subconscious to make the correct alignment, which means practice. Sometimes you'll see the correction yourself but sometimes you'll wind up with no idea where the shot went. That's where a coach comes in. With adults I see many who are too proud to ask and they just waste shells repeating the same mistakes.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2006
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No disrespect but making this statement so please don�t anyone get wet mitting but what I'm about to say...........
This thread is exactly like what you will find on your standard skeet line, 4 guys all stating what they think is the best way to learn to shoot. Find one guy, be that a pro instructor or just someone you feel can help you find your way, but ONE GUY. Several opinions, all may be right, will most likely add confusion and extend the time it takes to get your feet on the ground.
Not trying to kill the thread either, just making a point..... Carry on!
Last edited by passport; 09/06/12.
It�s a magazine not a clip......
Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least.�
- Lord Chesterfield. 1750
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Well I don't know but generally so. Sometimes instructing a (young) shooter I don't seem to be getting through or sometimes I'm not focusing on the right problem. I'll call the other instructor over and more often or not the fresh perspective or his different approach to explaining the problem does the trick. You do need a guy that knows HOW to instruct at least as much as WHAT to instruct. A lot of guys can shoot like crazy but can't teach worth a damn. Experience in instructing counts a lot.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,812
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,812 |
Right!!!! One thing that may help with the head position. Learn to get the majority of your gun movement by rotating from the hips down instead of using all arms. Using all arms sometimes tends to pull or push the head out of alignment. Just recently took a lesson from John Wholly. Your instructions for not aiming sounds like a repeat his mantra; "Start in front and look at the bird." Just recently he was runner up Veterans Champion at the World Fitasc. 
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
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Thanks for all of the suggestions........keep 'em coming. I AM taking notes. 
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 16,554 |
Ok, one more. This week a couple older kids we hadn't seen very often this season stopped by to shoot. They fell out of form just as they pulled the trigger like they were thinking the shot was over as soon as the trigger was pulled. It isn't. You need to follow through, the muzzle of our best shooters keeps moving at least until the shot reaches the target. That's the swing-through method. But whatever method you choose you need to hold form at the very least until the shot leaves the barrel, a little longer reinforces it and makes sure you did. We teach the beginners follow through by having them follow the target, or the biggest piece, all the way to the ground.
Well another on tempo. We'll stand behind a beginner and count one, two after he calls for the target. He should complete the shot before we reach two. Teaches rhythm, smooth swing, and discourages aiming.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,812
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,812 |
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
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Thanks for the pointers NH, and the link Battue. I'd LOVE to spend a week with Woolley.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,522
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,522 |
Illinois DNR offers several shotgun courses cheap. They are kind of sporting clays, with an instructor, and geared for hunters. You class yourself from novice to expert and shoot with people that classed themselves similarly. Each group gets its own instructor. The instructors are very good, very competent people.
If Illinois does this I think there is a good chance other states do too. I have taken the course and I intend to take more.
Ernie
Last edited by EWY; 09/16/12.
George Washington - �Labour to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire,�conscience.�
God save the Republic
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