Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Comancheria

Not to any specific poster in general.

The slaughter of innocents on the Frontier was nothing new. TWO THOUSAND dead on just the Pennsylvania Frontier in the F&I war, extimates of SEVEN THOUSAND dead along the whole Frontier during the Rev War, and EIGHT HUNDRED in less than a month during the Santee Sioux Uprising of 1862.

All huge numbers relative to the population at the time.

I have heard the number fifteen hundred during the settlement of Texas. Comanches were the usual suspects post 1840 at least, but really, in any given area the list of possible Indian suspects could be a long one.

Native deaths gthroughout our Frontier history unknown as many would be random shootings, a few notable bloodlettings, but on the whole the Natives were fewer in number and harder to surprise.

But throughout the whole Frontier period to the very end more Indians were falling at the hands of other Indians than were getting shot by White folks.

But overwhelming all Native death totals.... disease.

To name but one disease... imagine if illegal immigrants to our own country were bringing in smallpox. Further imagine that we ourselves had little resistance and no cure. So that everywhere these illegals showed up sooner of later massive smallpox epidemics erupted, carrying off your wife, children, parents, everyone in a most horrible and excrutiating manner.

Imagine if this happened not once, but several times over the course of your family history and that said illegals were moving in everywhere, shooting at you on sight and throwing you completely off your prior home.

Imagine the motivation you would have to fear and despise those people, and to kill them at every opportunity.

OTOH, for a settlers, expert killers suddenly descend out of nowhere and kill and/or torture to death your whole family, absconding with your children and systematically gang-raping (in some places) and enslaving your wife and daughters. All without any provocation on your part.

A lifetime of devastating grief and loss arriving out of the blue, erupting in a single morning.

Its no wonder hate existed in abundance on both sides, the greater wonder is EVERYBODY wasn't consumed by hatred, all the time. But everybody wasn't.

And an interesting observation:

Among Texans the dialogue invariably runs to examples of settler's families being slaughtered, and in their popular history a highly omissive and slanted view of history, assigning to irrelevance or ignoring entirely much I have posted here.

OTOH, current PC correctness runs to the opposite extreme.

But point of interest, school business just brung me up to OK City overnight, and coming back I detoured through Shawnee, Tecumseh and Tishomingo, all not far east of I35.

Bear in mind Oklahoma is mainstream Americana, the Heartland, Flyover Country.

Yet my return trip took me literally through "The Indian Nations" as it was called: Absentee Shawnee, Sauk and Fox, Citizen Potawatomi, and Chickasaw in this particular instance.

Understand that people who claim Native on the census only comprise about 15% of the population in these areas, and most of even the Indians have only a fraction of Indian blood. Most everybody LOOKS White.

How surreal would it be to see THESE things in Texas, as part of the mainstrean culture (ya I know about the Alabama Cousattas and the Tiguas, but they are both tiny).

The Citizen Potawatomi Center, Tecumseh, OK, and the big golf course out front.










...and an anti-smoking billboard from the Absentee Shawnee Tribe, just east of Norman OK...



Be aware these areas ain't populated with retrograde PC Hippies, but rather mainstream rural Christian Protestant Redneck America.

What IS interesting is that their popular common dialogue about their history is quite different than what prevails in Texas.

In Texas History all these different people, if mentioned at all are pretty much relegated to "ya, we kicked 'em out in such and such a year" without much elaboration.

Seemed like a vindication of sorts for them to see them so prominent in the settlement, organization, culture and history of that whole 'nother state just across the narrow, sandy Red River.

YMMV,
Birdwatcher

Of course I read the book.I pointed out some of the glaring geographical errors he made.Even a glance at a map would have prevented a lot of them.I picture a guy reading historical accounts and adding a little "local color" without ever actually visiting the locales.

I could,for instance,write a story about fishing in Big Lake Tx.If I wrote about the types of fish in the "big lake",most folks wouldn't know enough to brand me a phony.

If I wrote that the fishing is done at Pandale , on the Pecos,rather than in a "Big Lake",it might establish my credibility with folks familiar with Big Lake.

Mike seems hellbent on downgrading the reputation of the Comanches as warriors,and building up the eastern tribes.That's his business,but his agenda detracts from his writing talent,which is formidable.

Well, thats probably me, and I disagree

The saga of the displaced Eastern tribes all across the West is indeed a remarkable one, we could start with the large numbers of Iroquois Six Nations trappers employed in the heyday of the Rocky Mountain fur trade (the largest cohort of trappers if not the majority?) and work our way down.

And the perambulations of a Black Beaver and his ilk are indeed extraordinary.

Likewise, the tactics of Placido and his Tonkawas are well documented, the Tonks being such a persistent and collective pain that Quanah Parker had wanted to strike THEM after that first sun dance rather than the buffalo hunters at Adobe Walls. Osage and Pawnee both were also notable for venturing on raids into Comancheria on foot and coming back mounted.

What is notable too is the large cast of diverse characters who were freely crossing Comancheria even at the height of that tribe's power. A puzzle really that IIRC they never even feinted at shutting down or otherwise collecting tribute from the burgeoning Santa Fe trade which must have been having a visible impact on their heartland.

In those same years, it turns out different parties of Shawnee and Cherokees were already employed as protection for Mexican communities agains Comanches and Lipan Apaches, this practice reaching its peak in the 1850's when Kickapoos, Seminoles and Black Seminoles were all famousy involved and active in this role.

Yet no collective or effective Comanche response to these relatively small communities sitting athwart their raiding trails.

When it came to pitched battles; we know they drubbed Moore when he attacked a camp on the San Saba in '39, but Moore dismounted and handed them the initiative, Moore's Lipan allies STILL ran off most of the Comanche horse herd, and Moore himself suffered only light casualties, even though they faced a long walk home.

The Great Comanche Raid? Initial success against soft targets, repulsion at Victoria, followed by a clever bluff on the much smaller Texan force at Plum Creek, the show of armed resistance evaporating as soon as the Texans charged.

Moore again later that same year inflicting one of the great bloodlettings of the West, nearly 200 Comanche dead on the Colorado, Moore having done everthing right this time.

1840's? A couple of famously lopsided victories by Hays' handful of Rangers against six times their number of Comanches, said Comanches unencumbered by women and children at these fights.

After which it became durn near impossible to draw the Comanches into pitched battle, their forte alway having been soft targets raided for glory and profit. Instead the Comanches turned their attention to the fabulously lucrative and easy pickings in Mexico, Texans apparently shot back too much.

1850's; Jeff Davis' Own, the Second Texas Cavalry, led by Robert E. Lee hisself, rode all over West Texas attempting to draw battle but only drew blood a couple of times, one of which was Lt. John Bell Hood with fifteen men prevailing against a far greater number of Comanches on the Devil's River at close range after Hood was lured in by a flag of truce, said Comanches turning to fight at all only after a gruelling chase by Hood over several days (Hood was guided by a Delaware).

In that same period too, the inimicable RIP Ford succeeded in drawing the blood of Comanche war parties on a number of occasions, but only after much pursuit of a quarry that rarely stood to offer battle. Ford being guided by his indispensible Comanche/Mexican scout Roque.

1860, RIP Ford again, cleans up against Buffalo Hump's band in the Wichitas, Ford's Caddo and Tonkawa allies inflicting the majority of the casualties.

1864, Kit Carson marches approximately 350 enlisted men and about 50 Jicarilla and New Mexican scouts to Adobe Walls into the heart of the Comanche/Kiowa stronghold on the remote Panhandle. At Adobe Walls he discovers as many as SEVEN THOUSAND encamped Kiowas and Comanches. Perhaps at least half of the remaining population of both tribes.

Leaving his infantry behind to guard the supply train, Carson with a fraction of his force riles up at least a thousand mounted Comanche and Kiowa warriors, burns more than 170 Kiowa lodges, kills or seriously wounds about one hundred fifty of the armed and mounted opposition, and successfully extricates himself with a loss of just three killed, twenty-five wounded.

Custer shoulda took notes

...and notable that even as early as 1864 the Comanches and Kiowas in this, the most remote area of Comancheria, were already keeping large herds of cattle.

That same year a combined Confederate/Texas Frontier Militia force of around 500 mounted men, out looking for Comanches, directly contrary to the earnest advice of their Cherokee scout decides to attack a camp of neutral Kickapoos instead (number of combat age Kickapoos unknown, certainly significantly less than the attacking force) and got their a$$es handed to them by the accurate rifle fire from cover practiced by said Kickapoos.

Perhaps thirty casualties among the cavalry/militia, fourteen reported casualties among the Kickapoos. More to the point, the cavalry /militia ended up facing an arduous walk home on account of the Kickapoos also ran off their horses.

Ten years later, it was all over when MacKenzie, following his Shawnee, Delaware, Black Seminole and Tonkawa scouts, relentlessly runs the constantly fleeing Comanches into the ground, ending with that almost bloodless victory at Palo Duro Canyon, the Comanches having scattered on foot.

OK, call that the anti-Comanche take on Texas history, but all true and with only a small amount of cherry-picking

All of which is not to say that the Comanches did not flay the Texas Frontier, Fehrenbach puts the cost at 15 murdered setlers per mile the Frontier advanced, but soft targets almost all, carefully selected and stalked, taken by surprise.

Birdwatcher

Well, I'll get back to the main stream Texas story eventually, meanwhile I'm mining all the minor back stories, usually glossed over or skipped over entire....

To REALLY understand the History of Texas you have to understand that demographics, sheer numbers, trumps all else. The driving force behind the creation of Texas was the hordes of American immigrants swamping all else.

A brief recap of the non-Indian Texas population....

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/ulc01

1807 ~ 7,000
1830 - 20,000
1836 ~ 50,000
1845 - 125,000
1850 - 200,000+
1860 - 600,000+

Total Indian population? I'm gonna float a WAG of about 30,000 in 1830 (of which about 20,000 of which were Comanches), dwindling rapidly thereafter.

If we are talking the Eastern Tribes wandering around the state, a 1,000 total of any one tribe is a lot, so I suppose they ARE insignificant in the main flow of Texas history, but along with several smaller local groups and along with maybe 7-10,000 Tejanos they WERE here, and were moving pretty freely all over Texas. In short, the Texians did not arrive to find a vaccuum, nor an untrammelled, unknown wilderness.

Turns out an invaluable source for those interested in stuff like this are the writings of one Jean Louis Berlandier, a Frenchman in Mexican service who travelled extensively in Texas in the late 1820's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Louis_Berlandier

Specifically, what he left us are drawings of what Indians in Texas looked like in 1828. Berlandier also did get to go on a Comanche-guided buffalo and bear hunt in the unspoiled Texas Hill Country of that day (geeze, what would folks here pay to go on that hunt today if it were possible? )

Here are two of his drawings of Comanches, no word of the significance of the feathery outfits of the second two...







On the coast in the Corpus region, the Cocos, a subgroup of the fierce Karankawa (although sources other than Texian describe them in more benevolent terms)...




..and Karankawas on the coast further east. They had a long tradition of trade with the French and others by this time, note the powder horn, pouch and probable firearm in the case on the ground...



..and just to indicate Berlandier was not averse to painting women as bare breasted, here's his Tonkawa portrait...



He also painted one of the reclusive Kickapoo, perhaps typically retro in his old-style Eastern Woodland head pluck and roach, and note the firearm, likely a rifle....




And one of the more obscure groups, the Carizo, from along the Lower Rio Grande Valley and points south, long associated with the Mexican settlements. Browsing around you'll find that these guys were always ready to go out against their Comanche enemies.

Interesting that the Comanches never succeeded in wiping guys like this out, not even the Tonkawas, who were a tremendous thorn in their side up until the very end, this despite the fact that Comanche musta outnumbered Tonk by at least ten to one.

Here's Brlandier's Carizo's, said Indians trading game to the Rio Grande settlements as well as scouting services againt their mutual Comanche enemies....

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Sharpshin/frontierfolk/berlandier-carrizo-164.jpg[/img]

...and from the illustration it appears that Carizo women were much like those of modern times

Speaking of providing protection, here's Berlandier's painting of a Cherokee couple, much less retro than the Kickapoos....

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Sharpshin/frontierfolk/6858268_5_l.jpg[/img]

Here's the interesting part, this from a remarkably well-referenced and comprehensive link provided by the National Park Service (specific to the Del Rio, Lake Amistad area)....

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/amis/aspr-34/chap3.htm

As early as 1807, the Cherokee visited Nachitoches, and by 1813, several large Cherokee groups were camped on the Trinity River below Nacogdoches. A few years later, they occupied a series of villages on the upper Neches and Angelina Rivers and by 1833 those villages held a population of ca. 800.

That same year, Duwali (a prominent Cherokee chief) traveled to San Antonio and later to Monclova to cement the Texas Cherokee's already warm relationship with the Mexican government.

Indians called Chiraquies and Cariticas were found in the vicinity of Laredo (1826) and along the Colorado River (Berlandier 1828) during the early nineteenth century.

Little information is provided in either account, although, in the former, Gutierrez de Lara stated that the Chiraquis were assisting the Mexicans by fighting hostile Indians around the Laredo area.


So, about fifteen years years before their formal removal from Georgia on the Trail of Tears, and a full ten years before the Alamo, Cherokees in Texas (and Shawnees also) were already providing protection to the inhabitants of distant Laredo against raiding Comanches.

A tradition of contracted services that would still be in effect thirty years later when the Seminoles, Black Seminoles and Kickapoos relocated from Oklahoma to the region south of Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras.

Birdwatcher

the rogers on my dads side are descendents of these rogers.my grandmother was a rogers.

Seven months ago on this thread I wrote....

"Anyways....

Now we come to the legend.... John Coffee Hayes hisself...", and then got sidetracked into Indians and such.

Well part of the reason is prob'ly on account of so few actual specifics of the earlier life and exploits of the man himself are known, even Wiki, which is often a trove of historical information at least, being notably vague on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coffee_Hays

What we do know for sure is that he was born in Tennessee in the year of 1817, to a very-well connected family, Andy Jackson being his uncle.

Sources differ, but he apparently came to Texas in 1836, at the age of 19, with at least some surveying skills. Much is unsaid as to precisely WHY he came to Texas. The ordinary reasons one supposes, adventure and opportunity, but carried to a degree extraordinary in Hays' case.

We may suppose he looked up that other Jackson protege, Sam Houston, upon arrival. Whatever the specifics of the correspondence had been, young Jack's preledictions were apparently already evident as Houston promptly appointed him to be a Ranger in Erasmus "Deaf" Smith's outfit.

From there, near as I can gather, he drops off the radar screen for awhile. Sources have it that he was a member of Moore's failed 1839 expedition against the Comanches, tho' Smithwick, who was there, makes no mention of him. Sources also have it that he was present at Plum Creek in 1840.

At least part of those three or four years he was quietly making a reputation as a surveyor, one who was excpetionally fearless and able when Indians were encountered.

One other factor accounting for his anonymity in the first years however may have been a inclination on his part to keep company with Indians.

One of the best sourcves on Hays might be that written by a fellow Ranger and longtime associate, who travelled with Hays to California after the Ranger years and served as his Deputy when Hays was Sheriff of San Francisco.

Unfortunately the name of this guy escapes me at present, and I'm hanging on a thin google edge just now with amny windows open, but before I lose it suffice to state that the account was written in 1878 in Tennessee, unfortunately in a dime novel Western format( Hays hisself was still alive and wealthy in California at that time, but wrote very little of his life).

But from this book we get this... from a link I posted back in March (www.theoutlaws.com), now inactive wherein Jack went....

hunting with seventeen Delaware friends to the Pecos River... The party travelling on foot.

The Delaware and Hays ran for two days and nights, making only brief stops for food, drink, and rest, while the everlasting pounding of feet set Jack to wondering how much longer he could endure. Finally, he surpassed the point of no return, and his screaming muscles and depleted lung power somehow remembered his days at Davidson Academy in Nashville. He had run further than he had ever run before, but he had kept up.

At dawn on the third day, they attacked, surprising the Comanche, who ran frantically to the river to escape. It was a victory for the Delaware and Jack, who fought hand-to-hand with only a knife and tomahawk.

The Delaware again, who show up everywhere in Texas in this period, and who were apparently both highly thought of in some circles and who were also apparently NOT to be messed with.

Worth noting too that Sam Chaimberlaine, in his very good memoirs, specifically includes some Delawares in the mix along with Jack Hays' rangers amid the exceedingly rough company in the bars of San Antonio..

http://www.tshaonline.org/supsites/chamber/story/life.htm

Seems a safe bet that if you were going to tag along with a company of Delawares on foot into the wilds of Comancheria, as Hays may have done, you were probably held to a pretty high standard while on that trip.

That Hays worked well with Indian warriors is well supported, his close partnership with the Lipan Apaches and his adoption of Indian methods while on campaign being a widely celebrated part of his legend.

And it aint just hype and hearsay-type sources, even the sober and very well researched National Park Service Amistad piece has this to say...

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/amis/aspr-34/chap3.htm

Shawnee are shown on the Sulpher River of Texas on the 1828 Teran map. Known as the 'Absentee' Shawnee, they had settled south of the Red River in 1822. Over the next decade, the Shawnee traded in Nacogdoches and San Antonio, often in the company of the Delaware, Cherokee, and Kickapoo.

In 1832, they attacked a large Comanche band at Bandera Pass.

Recognizing that this tribe had knowledge of the geography of Texas and knowledge of other Native Americans, the Shawnee (along with the Delaware) were frequently chosen as scouts for the Texan and United States armies, and from 1840 to 1860 the two groups were "virtually omnipresent on the Texas frontier".

While only a small number of the Shawnee or the Delaware resided for a long period in Texas... in the early 1830s members of the ill-fated Villa Dolores colony stated that the Shawnee hunted game and beaver for pelts on the Rio Escondido and at Las Moras Creek....

Because of their skill and because of the colony's fears of Native American attack, they were hired as hunters for the colony... in 1838, Jack Hays, a Texas Ranger, encountered them on the Pecos and traveled with them to the Rio Grande in a joint pursuit of Comanche

Allowing that the recollections of Hays' former Deputy may have grown fuzzy recounting what was doubtless told to him by Hays himself perhaps thirty years previous, Hays' ultimately successful two-day on foot running chase of raiding Comanches may have been accomplished in company with Shawnees rather than Delwares, or a mixed party of the two.

Regardless, Hays was an extraordinary man seeking out extraordinary company, and matching the best those literally rough and tough men had to offer, to the limitsof human endurance.

Always hard to say how a given historical figure would have fared today. In Hays' case however, we have a skill at violence, extreme athleticism, tendency to test himself and seek out rough company, combined with an abiltiy to lead those same people.

All of these qualities were present in a number of idividuals of all races on the Frontier, but what sets Hays apart was an ability to move away from violence and to adapt and succeed very well in settled times, as he did in ranching and real estate in California in his later years.

My guess is that Jack Hays today would have been career Spec Ops, a Navy SEAL or the like.

Birdwatcher

The odd thing is, Jack Hays burns bright in Texas history, then just as suddenly is gone, never to return. Indeed after he left the state he never DID return, though in 1853 he travelled to Washington DC from San Francisco, among other things to attend the inauguration of President Franklin Pierce.

In his later years too (he died in 1882) he made a number of trips to Arizona, but none to Texas. A puzzle that, after all there must have been many invites in his later years for various anniversaries and other special occasions.

What he did after his return to Texas after the Mexican War is summed up here...

http://sfsdhistory.com/JackHays.htm

It wasn't until May of 1848 that Hays finally left Mexico to return to Texas....

Jack Hays retired from military duty and was given the job of head surveyor of roads leading west from San Antonio. One of the men in his surveying crew was his former Ranger comrade Major John Caperton, who later became Hays� chief deputy sheriff in San Francisco. Although Hays' job was to �survey�, he and his crew were actually exploring previously unmapped areas, looking for major passages west.

The landscape and weather were brutal and exhausting. After 45 days, the party ran out of rations and subsisted by eating their own pack mules and any wild game they could find. Hays finally returned to San Antonio after 106 days in the wilderness, desert, mountains and treacherous territories both north and south of the Rio Grande. It was December 1848.

It seems possible that that three month ordeal for minimal pay might have been what finally induced Hays to hang up his badge and head out for greener pastures.

More of this time period is mentioned here...

http://www.alamedasun.com/essence-of-alameda/3837?task=view

After the war Hays decided to travel west with his friend (and future deputy sheriff and business partner) Major John Caperton. The pair commanded 40 soldiers who were charged with guarding a detachment of army engineers who were building the road to El Paso.

The three Ranger names most associated with California are John Coffee (Jack) Hays, John Caperton, and John McMullin. Both of the other two guys had served with Hays and were about ten years his junior.

As best I can gather, McMullin and Caperton had both been in Hays' legendary Ranger unit operating out of San Antonio in the early 1840's, and had served under him in the Mexican War. Caperton's later book appears to be THE primary source on Hays, though today that 1878 book "The Life and Adventures of Jack Hays" is out of print, held in manuscript form by the University of California IIRC.

Hays and Caperton arrived in San Francisco in 1850 and together would serve as Sheriff and Deputy Sherrif of San Frnacisco for three years, working closely with the "Committee of Vigilance", an ad-hoc law enforcement body.

John McMullin was from a moneyed family back East, captured in Mexico during the Miers expedition (1842?), he had been able to endure the months of subsequent captivity in relatively high style, staying in a hotel rather than the miserable conditions most of his peers had been held under.

McMullin arrived in California that same year as Hays and Caperton, driving a herd of cattle up from Mexico to the California gold fields.

These three guys were apparently all close; Jack Hays named his first child John Caperton Hays, and after being college educated back east this John Caperton Hays married Anna McMullin, John McMullin's daughter....

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~npmelton/sfbha.htm

That marriage was surely a case of money marrying money, because what is truly remarkable about these three Rangers' later years is the bewildering speed with which they aquired real estate and money. It may be that all three, especially Hays and McMullin, were well capitalized through family connections in Tennessee.

Jack Hays would be summoned to action again during the Nevada Paiute War of 1860. Here the above link is misleading, this was not an old ranger-style series of running gun battles with the Paiutes for several weeks, with numerous casualties on both sides but rather two major fights, the first in which seventy vigilantes made the error of seriously underestimating the Paiutes and paid for it with their lives, and the second larger fight which was a standoff.

If he was not foremost and indefagitable in the fighting, Hays did at least display his old exemplary ability to gather and lead men to combat.

Hays, McMullin and Caperton all chose to sit out the War Between the States, tho' Jack Hays' brother for one rose to the ranks of Brigadier General in Confederate service. Hays would have been 44 when the war broke out, and Cpaerton and McMullin younger yet, certainly not too old for service.

Hays' later years are summed up in the link...

Jack Hays lived another two decades, immersed in California Democratic politics and managing his vast real estate holdings. Hays was a member of the U. C. Board of Regents and a director of the Deaf, Dumb, and Blind Asylum in Berkeley (precursor to the California School for the Deaf and Blind).

He was a major stockholder in the Oakland Gas Light Company, and the founder and director of Oakland's Union National Bank....

So certainly, whatever the "political establishment" or "moneyed elite" was in California at that time, Hays, Caperton and Mc Mullin were right in it, from early on. Whether there is anything sinister implied in that I have no idea.

He died at the age of 66 in his Oakland home on April 21, 1883, and is buried in a crypt in Oakland's Mountain View Cemetery at the foot of Piedmont Avenue.

Ah, the hazards of burial, I dunno Oakland, but here in San Antonio the graves of some of thhe foremost heroes of early Texas lie on the high ground just East of downtown, now one of the roughest low-income neighborhoods in the whole city.

For Hays' part, laying where he is yet I'm surprised he ain't been dug up and scattered yet, after all he was preeminent among the "evil White men" and likely killed a whole passel of "oppressed people of color" by his own hand. 'Course, it might be that the sort of folks who would do the digging ain't familiar enough with history to know who Jack Hays was.

Birdwatcher

At this point I have three of Moore's excellent "Savage Frontier" series of four books minutely detailing the Texas Fronter 1837-45. I'm waiting on "Volume Two: 1838-39", with the intent of trying to piece together a coherent narrative of Jack Hay's rangering career, something which appears to be otherwise sadly lacking in print.

But if anyone in print has it it would be Moore, him being a real historian, guys like me merely reading books by guys like him.

Speaking of books, I came across this in Frederick Law Olmstead's "A Journey Through Texas". Olmstead, the guy who would later design NYC's Central Park and the park around Niagara Falls, travelled clear across the State as it was in 1856-57 and left us a wonderfully detailed narrative.

In the Spring of 1857 he travelled from San Antonio to Eagle Pass, 100 miles upriver (west) of Laredo, and then crossed the river and travelled maybe fifty miles into Mexico, south of the Border.

Bear in mind this was Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras, at one time ground zero for Comanche incursions into Mexico, Northern Mexico by this time in the popular Texas narrative being a depopulated, terror-stricken wasteland ravaged by Comanches.

Yet from Olmstead, describing his return to the Piedras Negras/Rio Grande area, we get this....

They had no horses for sale, but further back from the river there were large stocks, whence herds were constantly driven into Texas. They were sold at six dollars the head, a mare with her colt counting as one, and one stallion being added without charge to every twenty head purchased.

They are broken on the road, the Mexican drivers receiving one dollar per day for this work.

Sorta reminiscent of those Mexican ox carts quietly plying their trade across South Texas throughout the worst of the Frontier era, that freighting trade being the economic lifeline of San Antonio:

Here also we have the spectacle of herds of horses "constantly" (and peaceably) driven into Texas by Mexicans for purposes of trade, from the area south of Eagle Pass/Piedras Negras almost certainly for sale in San Antonio.

In the popular, two-dimensional Texas narrative, this doesn't happen.

Birdwatcher

Good stuff, Birdy... keep it comin'...

Question for you,Birdy:Did the Comanches geld their horses?

Fehrenbach says they did, and sometimes their slaves

Bird;
preciate the time and effort you took to research and write these post. Enjoy them.
Thanks.

Speaking of slaves, who after all comprised about one in three of the total Texas population, Olmstead writes at length on that "perculiar institution". Plainly an abolistionist, bias is to be expected, but then again to us modern folk it would be pretty hard to gild that particular lily.

To his credit, Olmstead does not dwell on incidences of egregious sadism other than relating the case of a Georgia Planter who would pull a toenail for a first runaway attempt, and two for a second, never having had to have pulled more than a total of three toenails from any one person.

Instead Olmstead describes a sort of banal and by modern lights surreal mediocrity on the part of both master and slave, and is the more credible for it.

But before all that, his vivid description of what it was like to ride an antebellum paddlewheeler down the Mississippi to New Orleans, in the late fall of 1856

The Sultana was an immense vessel, drawing nine feet, and having an interminably long saloon. Loaded to the full her guards, even at rest, were on the exact level of the water, and the least curve of her course, or movement of her living load, sent one of them entirely under. Like the greater number of Western boats I had the fortune to travel upon, some part of her machinery was "out of order".

In this case one of the wheels was injured and must be very gently used. Carrying the mails, and making many landings, this proved a serious detention, and we were more than six days in making the passage from Cairo to New Orleans, which may be made in a little over two.

Little could be added, within the same space, to the steamboat comfort of the Sultana. Ample and well-ventilated state rooms, trained and ready servants, a substantial as well as showy table; at the head of all, officers of dignity and civility. A pleasant relic of French river dominion is the furnishings of red and white wines for public use at dinner.

A second table provides for the higher employees of the boat and for the passengers who have found themselves de trop at the first. A third is set for the White servants and children, and a fourth for blacks.

Among the last, several ladies made their appearance, in whom, only when thus pointed out, could you observe any slight indication of colored ancestry. No wise man, therefore, should fall blindly in love, on board these steamers, till this fourth table has been carefully examined.

In a voyage so long you forget the attitude of expectation usual on a steamboat, and adapt your habits to the new kind of life. It is not, after all, very different from life at a watering-place. Day after day you sit down to the same table with the same company, slightly changing its faces as guests come and go.

You meet the same persons in your walks upon the galleries and in evening conversation. New acquaintances are picked up and welcomed to more or less intimacy. Groups form common interests, and from groups cliques and social envies.

The life, especially in the tame Mississippi scenery, is monotonous, but is barely long enough to get tedious, and the monotony is of a kind you are not sorry to experience, once in a lifetime. With long sleeps necessitated by nocturnal interruptions from landings and woodings, long meals, long up and down walks, and long conversations, daily interlarded with letters and books, time passes, and space.

With the Southern passengers, books are a small resource, cards fill every vacuum. Several times we were expostulated with, and by several persons inquiries were made, with deep curiosity, as to how the deuce we possibly managed to pass our time, always refusing to join in a game of poker, which was the only comprehensible method of steaming along.

The card parties, begun after tea, frequently broke up only at dawn of day, and loud and vehement disputes, as to this or that, occupied not only the players, but, per force, the adjacent sleepers. Much money was lost and won with more or less gaiety or bitterness, and whatever pigeons were on board were duly plucked and left to shiver.

Birdwatcher

...and a typical Connecticut Yankee.

Hey I'm baaaaack!!!!!!! Still don't have a computer @ home, but I can get on this one at work for a little while. Been 8 weeks since wifey's surgery and she's doing GREAT!!!!!!

Roger, if you are a Roger's descendant you might be interested in this publication from the Env. Affairs division of TxDOT;

"Under Four Flags - History and Archeology of North Loop One, Travis County, TX"

You can find it and other archaeological publications at this link; http://www.dot.state.tx.us/gsd/pubs/envpubs.htm#u

A good friend of mine, John Clark (ret. TxDOT archaeologist)wrote the report I've mentioned above. His research delves into the Rogers Families in three different central Texas locations. Two in Travis co, and one in Bastrop co. I have a copy but currently it is out on loan to a fellow researcher.

I'll try to keep in touch!

Kaywoodie

Maybe, but one who had'nads enough to ride with just two companions in 1857 from San Antonio to Eagle Pass, cross the river, and ride on into the interior of Mexico, at a time when the unwary and/or unarmed could pretty much plan on meeting a bad end.

One gets the impression that them being visibly armed at all times (with Colt '51 Navys ) saved them much grief. That and their ex-Ranger guide "Woodland".

Here's what Olmstead wrote of the Indians he encountered in Mexico...

When we reached the principal street, we found upon the corner a company of Indians, on horseback and on foot around the shop where Woodland had hoped to obtain lodgings for us, for there was no public house in the town. "Mescalero-Lipan-Tonkaway!" he muttered, scowling anxiously as we approached them; "I know that fellow; I've seen him on the Leona. What are they here for?".

We halted while he rode among the group, and conversed with a Mexican for a moment. When he came out he said- "They won't take us in here. I don't know what we shall do. Do you see that old fellow with the squaw-that's a Comanche. I wonder what he's here for? Some of Wildcat's devilry I expect."

Note; that would be the very same Wildcat of Seminole War fame, who after removal also carved a reputation for hisself on the Texas Frontier, tho that part is mostly forgotten today. Ain't fer nothing there's a Seminole, TX way out on the Texas Plains. Also worth noting that in that polyglot assemblage of Indians were three groups traditionally hostile to Comanches; Mescalero and Lipan Apaches, and Tonkawas.

As we rode on past the Indians, they turned to look at us, speaking loudly to one another, and laughing, some of the younger ones beckoning to us to stop, and shouting, "Hi! hi!". "Don't mind them; ride on! ride on!" whispered Woodland, "they are looking at your rifle.".....

...an Indian came up, and tried to take my Sharp's rifle. I drew it away from him, and he, addressing me angrily, took hold of my arm, and tried to pull it towards him. "Keep it away from him, keep it away!" cried the Frenchman.

I spurred my horse, and with my free hand, disengaged mysself from him... He followed me for a few rods, yelling and gesticulating violently. The Indians all seemed to know the "Sharp" by sight, and to have a great desire to handle it. One of them told Woodland that he knew it had miraculous power to kill Indians."


...and Olmstead's impression of Indians in general...

Nothing can be more lamentable than the condition of the wandering tribes. They are permanently on the verge of starvation. Having been forced back, step by step, from the hunting grounds and the fertile soil of Lower Texas to the bare and arid plains, it is no wonder that they are driven to violence and angry depredations.

There are repeated references to starving Indians in Texas history, but Olmstead WAS writing from during the 1850's; known drought years across much of Texas, bad enough fer example to drive a great many Comanches to accept reservations.

And maybe notable that Olmstead saw few Comanches in Mexico, this was eight years after the massive cholera epidemic of '49 had hammered that tribe.

As to our policy towards them, we saw too little either of it to justify the expression of an opinion, having any other foundation that common sense. The borderers' idea, which looks upon them as blood-thristy vermin, to be exterminated without choice of means, was imperatively uppermost in our minds when in their presence.

A look into their treacherous eyes was enough to set the teeth grinding and rouse the self-preservation tigerhood of the animal man.... If my wife were in a frontier settlement, I can concieve how I should hunt an Indian and shoot him down with all the eagerness and yet ten times the malice with which I should follow the panther.

Yet the power of even a little education on these chaotic, malicious idiots and lunatics can hardly be over-estimated....

After the foundation of Fredericksburg by the German settlers, the principal supplies of food were obtained from the Indians, and the people were almost in consternation when the forts were first established near, and the Indians withdrew their supplies and their profitable barter.

The Comanche/German treaty regarding the establishment of Frederickburg (in the Texas Hill Country maybe 60 miles north and west of San Antonio as the crow flies) has the popular reputation of being the one treaty that was never broken by either side. A bit simplified in the specifics of course but true in the gist; the Germans having taken the revolutionary step of first having politely asked permission to settle, and then followed it up by treating the Indians charitably and fairly when they came into the settlements.

Comanches STILL come down from Oklahoma to participate in that town's annual celebration.

Birdwatcher

Mike, I think you would really find interesting "Adventures in Mexico and The Rocky Mtns" by G.F.Ruxton. He took a little horse-back ride from southern Mex. to up in the Rockies. It is a great narrative of the Mexican people and their relations with the marauding Indians. A remarkable and dangerous journey. I think it ties in somewhat to the theme of this thread.

I'm sure it does, thanks for the reference. I expect one could spend years researching all these accounts. The thing is about these many and diverse stories of the West... I'd guess they're all true, for the most part, the West being a big and diverse place, with the passage of time being an added dimension. Fer example, the one part of Northern Mexico Olmstead travelled in 1857 might have been a different place in 1837, things changing as rapidly as they were during those years.

Still waiting on that "Savage Frontier" episode to arrive. In thhe meantime, another group of Texans at that time, about one third of the population actually, also ain't much talked about; Blacks, slaves for the most part.

Pertinent to this thread, might be the majority of Black folks on the Frontier fringe, or at least a significant proportion, were runaway slaves attempting against all odds to make it to Mexico and freedom. Surely there must be some epic and heroic stories of flight here, 'cept few cared to record 'em.

Noah Smithwick gives one of the better accounts of a single episode of the same. Now Smithwick was a remarkable guy, and actually partnere3d for a while whith a Yankee who had impregnated a slave and then taken the remarkable step of purchasing her so that his children would be free.

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd17.htm
Webber having become entangled in a low amour, the result of which was an offspring, which, though his own flesh and blood, was the property of another, without whose consent he could not provide for nor protect it, he faced the consequences like a man. Too conscientious to abandon his yellow offspring and its sable mother to a life of slavery, he purchased them from their owner, who, cognizant of the situation, took advantage of it to drive a sharp bargain.

Building himself a fort in the then unsettled prairie, Webber took his family home and acknowledged them before the world. There were others I wot of that were not so brave.

The Webber family of course could not mingle with the white people, and, owing to the strong prejudice against free negroes, they were not allowed to mix with the slaves, even had they so desired: so they were constrained to keep to themselves. Still there wasn't a white woman in the vicinity but knew and liked Puss, as Webber's dusky helpmeet was called, and in truth they had cause to like her, for, if there was need of help, Puss was ever ready to render assistance, without money and without price, as we old timers know.

Webber's house was always open to any one who close to avail himself of its hospitality, and no human being ever went away from its doors hungry if the family knew it. The destitute and afflicted many times found an asylum there. One notable instance was that of a poor orphan girl who had gone astray and had been turned out of doors by her kindred. Having nowhere to lay her head, she sought refuge with the Webbers. Too true a woman to turn the despairing sinner away, Puss took her in, comforting and caring for her in her time of sorest trial.

Beneath that sable bosom beat as true a heart as ever warmed a human body. At another time they took in a poor friendless fellow who was crippled up with rheumatism and kept him for years. By such generous acts as these, joined to the good sense they displayed in conforming their outward lives to the hard lines which the peculiar situation imposed on them, Webber and his wife merited and enjoyed the good will, and, to a certain extent the respect, of the early settlers.


...and here's Smthwick's outrage at and contempt for the inevitable fate of the Webber family.

After the Indians had been driven back, so that there was comparative safety on Webber's prairie, a new lot of people came - "the better sort," as Colonel Knight styled them - and they at once set to work to drive Webber out. His children could not attend school, so he hired an Englishman to come to his house and teach them, upon which his persecutors raised a hue and cry about the effect it would have on the slave negroes, and even went so far as to threaten to mob the tutor. The cruel injustice of the thing angered me, and I told some of them that Webber went there before any of them dared to, and I, for one, proposed to stand by him.

I abhorred the situation, but I honored the man for standing by his children whatever their complexion. But the bitter prejudice, coupled with a desire to get Webber's land and improvements, became so threatening that I at length counseled him to sell out and take his family to Mexico, where there was no distinction of color. He took my advice, and I never afterward saw or heard of him.

Turns out the Webbers did set up house again, IIRC just across the river along the lower Rio Grande.

Now given that account, and the relatively free fraternization Smithwick expereienced with various Indian groups in his life, plus the fact that when war broke out Smithwick declared himself a Union man, one might expect him to have been anti-slavery.

Aint that simple; Smithwick himself admits to owning at least two, here commenting on his runaway slave episode...

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd25.htm

It was curious to note the different views taken of that affair by the negroes - a man and a woman - in my possession. The woman, who was a mulatto, openly avowed her sympathy for the fugitives, while the man, a full-blooded negro, took the other side.

Posts running long, I'll cut and paste the episode in its entirety next post.

Birdwatcher

With the understanding that folks could have just as easily read this on the link for themselves; this episode on the Colorado just below the present town of Marble Falls, maybe fifty miles upriver from Austin, the year late 1850's.

Here it is, like a 19th Century version of "It Happened to Me" in Combat Handguns magazine(maybe entitled "Runaway slaves; your horse pistol solution")....

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd25.htm

A man's finest monument is that which he rears for himself. That old mill, which I believe still bears my name, is all the monument I desire. In justice there should perhaps be emblazoned on its wall an incident that occurred during its building.

My dwelling, which stood near the edge of a narrow strip of table land between the river and the hills, was headquarters for a number of the mill hands. One night, just after dark, my dogs ran to the edge of the hill barking furiously at something below. Stepping out to see what game they had flushed, I heard a stone fall among them, by which I knew it was some person, and suspected that he was skulking, as the road ran on the opposite side of the house.

It was too dark to make observations and knowing the watchful nature of my canine guards, I didn't give myself further trouble. It was, perhaps, an hour later that a bright light like a campfire was noticed a mile or so above in the river bottom; coupling that with the incident earlier in the evening, we someway hit upon the theory that they must be runaway negroes, which were not desirable additions to the neighborhood.

We determined to investigate, but the light died down, and there being no other means of locating the supposed camp, we deferred the foray till morning. Bright and early a couple of the boys set out to reconnoiter. In an hour, before it was light, one of them returned, confirming our suspicions. A party of five of us then sallied forth, another having remained in the vicinity of the camp to watch the movements of the occupants, who were seen to be negro men.

The runaways, too, were early astir, and by the time the storming column reached the camp were off. The dogs of course accompanied the chase, and among them was a noble fellow, half bloodhound, that could be depended on to track anything living. Tiger promptly took the trail and bounded away with the rest of the pack at his heels; we hurried on and directly heard the dogs baying and then a shot.

In a few minutes the dogs came back, Tiger bleeding from a shot through the skin under the throat.

This put a serious aspect on the affair; we had not counted on armed resistance. The sight of my wounded favorite aroused my wrath and what had before been a mere frolic now became a personal matter. Tiger, who was not seriously hurt, was also apparently eager for revenge, but to guard him against further injury I tied one of the ropes we had brought along to secure our contemplated prisoners with around his neck so as to keep him in hand. Finding him hard to manage I handed my trusty rifle to one of the boys, taking an old-fashioned horse pistol in exchange.

The delay had given the fugitives a chance to reload and get away. The river being up prevented escape in that direction. A little way on we came upon a horse which they had stolen on Hickory creek: the animal had bogged in crossing a little creek and, there being no time to waste, his captors abandoned him. The negroes then took to the higher ground.

By some accident favorable to the fugitives our party became separated, three of them carrying rifles getting off on the trail with the dogs, leaving me, armed with the old pistol, and two others with only small pocket pistols. For some reason the negroes doubled on their track and came back in full view of our position.

We intercepted them and demanded an unconditional surrender, the only reply being the presentation of a rifle in the hands of a powerful black fellow. Thinking that he meant business, I threw up my pistol and without waiting to take sight, blazed away.

There was a deafening report and something "drapped," but it wasn't the darkey. I sprang to my feet, the blood streaming from a wound just above my right eye; my right hand was also badly torn and bleeding, and my weapon nowhere to be seen. I comprehended the situation at once. The old pistol had been so heavily charged that when I pulled the trigger it flew into fragments, the butt of it taking me just above the eye.

My blood was now thoroughly up, and thinking that the negro had fired simultaneously with myself I snatched a pistol from one of my companions and called to them to charge while his gun was empty. I discharged my piece without apparent effect, the only remaining shot was then a small pocket pistol in the hands of Billy Kay.

"Charge on him, Billy," I commanded.

Billy charged and received a bullet in the groin.

The negro had reserved his fire. By this time the other boys came up, but the negroes had gotten the best of the fight and were off, with the dogs in hot pursuit. Tiger had gotten away when I fell; directly we heard another shot and the dogs returned, Tiger having received a shot through the body.

Neither Kay nor the dog were disabled, but Kay's wound was a dangerous one and we made all haste to get him home and get a surgeon. The chase had therefore to be abandoned.

In sorry plight we returned home. In our haste to get off after the game in the morning, hoping to bag them in camp, we had not waited for breakfast, thinking to be back in an hour or two. A messenger was dispatched for Dr. Moore, our Fourth of July orator, sixteen miles away. The doctor came post haste, but could not locate the ball with which Kay was loaded.

The neighborhood was aroused and the country scoured in vain. Several days later the fugitives were heard from over on Sandy, where they held up Jim Hamilton and made him give them directions for reaching Mexico. We subsequently learned that the negroes had escaped from the lower part of the state. They were never recaptured, though one or two other parties attempted it.

I hope they reached Mexico in safety. That big fellow deserved to; he certainly was as brave a man as I ever met.

Singlehanded - his companion being unarmed - he had whipped six white men, all armed, and as many fierce dogs. That was unquestionably the worst fight I ever got into. I think now, looking back over a life of ninety years, that that was about the meanest thing I ever did....

Billy Kay was laid up about two months, the bullet finally causing suppuration, by which means it was located and removed.

Tiger's wound eventually caused his death. My injuries soon heated, but I still bear the scar, which might well have been the brand of Cain.

The only portion of the double-acting pistol that was ever found was the guard, which caught on a bush some yards away from the scene of battle.

Just as an aside, I found this quote of Smithwick's interesting.

Of course the essential principle of slavery was profiting off of captive labor, a description which would fit even tbe more prestigious slaveowners like Jeff Davis hisself.

But I at least tend to think of this on a plantation scale. Turns out slavery could also be a sort of slave owner welfare (which strictly speaking it was, even for the likes of a Jeff Davis).

Two incidences described by Smithwick where the wages of hired-out slaves were co-opted directly by the owners. Olmstead describes numerous cases of "hiring out" too but in the cases he describes the slave is permitted to keep most if not all of this "extra" income, once obligations to the master are met.

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd25.htm

The savages got separated in the retreat, one party of them getting down into the cedar brakes below Burnet, where they made an attack on Joe Allen, the negro previously referred to. Joe had been spending Sunday with his wife at the Mormon mill, and started very early Monday morning for home.....

It would have been a distressing affair had old Joe Allen been killed, as he was the sole support of a poor widow with a large family, among them several grown-up sons. The injustice of the situation forced itself upon my recognition at the time, and I often wondered how it fared with Joe and his wife Mandy when they were free.

Two more honest, faithful people could not have been found in all the country. Joe was so entirely trustworthy that his mistress permitted him to hire himself to suit himself, himself collecting his wages, which were faithfully delivered to the mistress, while his own wife went barefooted and in rags, her hire and that of one of her children by a former husband supporting another white family.

I had both Joe and Mandy in my employ, and never had the least cause to find fault with either one.

At another time the widow's family had a narrow escape from losing their means of livelihood. Joe was wending his way to his work early in the morning, after having Sundayed with his wife, when he was bitten on the leg by a rattlesnake. He had a chunk of tobacco in his pocket, which he chewed up, hastily binding it on the wound with his handkerchief, and went on his way, not losing a day's work.

Birdwatcher