Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Been testing the 12GA From Hell--

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

yah know i wish i was closer to you so i could see yah touch these off in person. way cool stuff!!

Thanks for the info. Bud was supposed to start his load work-up this week. Haven't heard from him. Turkey season hre next month, so that is what he is developing. Will e-mail your data to him, as may not get to catch him this weekend. Know he got some load info from previous owner (Yep, he bought and paid for it already, darn it). Told me he had too many guys seeing it and asking to buy it. Well, that puts me No. 1 on the buy list anyway. Anyway I get to use for turkey after he gets his turkey. Need to trap one and stake it out, so he fills his tag first day,LOL!

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

Am printing your post to save, and thanks. I am thinking brass cases for the 87 here sooner or later, if looks feasible. Will be messing with it a bunch late this coming Winter.

Tried to catch him at home this morning, but he was working an event somewhere. We have enough components for shotshells and loads for next month. He told his wife he got the barrel internal measured this week, but she didn't know what he found out. If I get anything in the way of data, can pass on to you if you think might have some relevance to your project.

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Works good. Next we cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads worked.
I also felt now that having found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion to
the turned cases(that can't take pressures like
our cases built from bmg brass), that good low base plastic
would do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns, so I tested plastic with 600 gr slugs, the last 3 days along with turned cases, and a good result.
Plastic does as good as turned case loads in NEf and
1887. Like 120 gr Re-7 in 87 gets 1700 in plastic case.
If it had long heavy barrel you could get over 2000.
The plastic will get all the potential that NEF and 1887
can deliver with RE-7 type loads. And plastic is
a 100 times more available.And with regular primers so
gun doesn't have to be worked over for big primers.Ed

Great info, printing to save. Basically I'll be the one to do the "brass" loads, and just for nostalgia. I've got the wads and brass around here someplace, (if still good), haven't had it out for years. My goal is to show up at dove shoot next year, with a full bandolier of brass shot loads. Might even put some of that "real smoke" charges in those cases, LOL!

Your plastic/load info is great, thanks a lot! Should find out what he's done tomorrow, said he had the weekend free, and wants to play. If doesn't storm, I want to do some patterning if possible.

Still counting 5 and 4 shot holes. Hope to have done tomorrow. Looks decent, not great. Rained on us all day yesterday. Finally cut up boxes for pattern sheets, and shot out from the garage doors.

Hope to post tomorrow night. Got to get some pasture mowing done this week between weather fronts. If clears here, will probably get after the mowing.

Hubel - Been waiting for load data since the other evening, nothing yet. Can't raise anyone e-mail or phone, got me a little worried. Will try to find someone tomorrow or Saturday, or hopefully get a mail or call. Left message on machine Monday, what has me worried!

In testing plastic cases original 87 use only RE-7.
AA-1680 expands bases too much in couple spots
right in front of rim due to cutouts for extractors.
Don't use AA-1680 in 87 with plastic.
New heavy barrel with different extractor cutouts
will solve this.I got one coming as I want long,
heavy barrel.. Ed

Thanks for the info, saving. Looks like this project is on hold for awhile here.

Drove over there this morning, no one around. No sign on his shop as to what going on. His brother-in-law pulled in to open shop for Saturday (his regular day there in shop).

Eric had work accident, off a collapsing scaffold (electrician) at work. BIL says shoulder pretty busted up, and some spine damage, doctor's not sure of yet, told family they are looking for a fracture in vetebra. Eric's wife and daughter (yeah, old guys can get that done too, she's a four year old) have been staying with Eric's parents, closer to hospital, and little girl pretty shook up about "Daddy hurt".

BIL said shoulder surgery sometime this week for pins to immobilize shoulder during heal. Lot of pain due to messed up back, so will try to visit him sometime this week if BIL says OK.

May help in shop. Open evenings and all day Saturday this time of year, excepting Sun. Mon., and this is busy time of year for them. Sure going to kill October for me, but can't turn them down if need help.

Will have to wait to see what transpires.

Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

Headed for the gunshop now, got report on the surgery & recovery from Eric's wife yesterday. Bet I get a different report from him, LOL!

I'm an employee again Mon. thru Thurs. At least got Fri. and Sat., and mornings free, so will get to do some home hunting this Fall and Winter, afterall by golly!

Wife says no shooting, doctor's orders, so will need to get the "other" side before knowing about the shotgun project.

Saved your last post.

Well, got to the shop, unlocked and found a note, wife had to take him to hospital to get re-sutured. While I was trying to find the cashbox (never did find it), sold about $300 worth of ammo, about 200 worth of accessories stuff. I'm out of change at that point, and had to dig change up out of the truck for the last guy in the shop. Got kind of slow bout supper time, still couldn't find the cashbox, called BIL on his cell, he didn't know where, so think it was in house. BIL said to close up, he couldn't make it over, at church function Monday. His church night, and when he got out of that he wanted to head to hospital t find out the deal. Told me Eric is not supposed to be doing anything until sutures removed. Hope he didn't do something dumb.

Tomorrow a better day I hope. BIL said to close and leave apology note on door, since I couldn't make any more change. I wasn't comfortable taking any checks unless they approved them. Hope it didn't PO anybody.

Headed home, and back on the 'puter.

Saw one of the Norinco take-offs of the Win in another shop this past week. Didn't have time to check it out thoroughly. Will try to find time to look at it some more this week,. What do you think of them? Quick look-over seemed to be decent, but not as well machined as the original shotgun.

remseven-THe replica 87 looks good on outside.
Some rough spots inside. Nice old time style that
I like. Nice to be built from modern heat
treated steel.Ed

I'm thinking about it, don't really need another project for right now, but I'm liking it more and more.

Probably be a twofer deal, if I go there. One for shotshells, the other for you can guess what. Should be a heck of a stopper, if Norinco action reliable. Will hold off and see what else develops for right now.

Gun shop buddy OK. but he isn't going to be shooting any shotguns until about Christmas time, so he has been told. Had to cancel his elk trip, and he is not happy about that. We will try to fix him up to deer hunt with a pistol rest, and ground blind, that perked him up some.

Thanks for the info!

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

Gotcha, printed out and in notebook.


Thanks again!

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

I understand, want to do some more research on the Norinco before going any slug route there. Mainly want to find what kind of pressures that thing can take safely. Just like the idea of the lever (providing those hulls flip out of down- the-barrel vision). Even low velocity hard-cast with ENOUGH velocity can be great performers, especially heavy ones. Also want to check the reliability of feed and function on the thing. Not real convinced of import tooling these days unless know the whole story.

Won't have much of a chance to get into it until about Feb., as to sitting down and thinking it through. Saving all info I run across for that reason. If nothing else will help make up mind. Just seems like a fun project, and a bit different than the run of the mill stuff.

Better half and I have been talking about cutting back on the cattle, and other outside commitments, hopefully to have more time for ourselves this time next year.

We will just see how it goes for this Winter, as things have a way of changing life's path.

I sure do appreciate the info though!