Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Been testing the 12GA From Hell--

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

Very interesting, sort of a vertical "double rifle", LOL!

Going to check out their sight for info on "timing" the barrels.
I checked out a European manufacter several years ago, as they could build and adjust timing as to your specifications. Small Belgium company, but can not remember the name right now. Remember they built their shotguns on on same design as their heavy rifles. Had a good reputation, and seemed very willing to work with you in correspondence. Always thought would get a chance to visit them, but never did. Do remember it was going to run into the 6 to 8 thousand dollar range, depending on what specifications I determined as final. This may be the same outfit, as they produced firearms under several names for "custom" shops and also sold their actions and "proof-tested" barrels. Should recognize if them when I review their info.

Tried to do quick search, no luck. May have been Zoli or Adamy (German), no luck with the Belgium manufacturing.

Will check files, records here Sunday when have time and maybe find name there.

No luck yet, hubel458. Don't think I've got it here, and could have possibly thrown out in a major move we made about ten years go.

Will be at other place sometime this week, will check there.

Nothing on the Zoli or Adamy site rings a bell in my mind.

Am thinking this hubel458 must be related to the folks that brought us the Hubble telescope.

They think BIG!

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

Oh, man, would love to see what that would do as frontal shot on a galloping BIG Brownie, or Bison!!!

Thanks, Hubel!

Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

Got it, printing to save and thanks!

What is your idea of Benelli SBE for gun?

SBE springs come rated for the 3 1/2 inchers (pressure at those levels), I can weight the forend and the stock. Thinking the reliability, extra cap. magazine, and weight in the 9 lb+, for follow up if needed.

They are great autoloaders. Take a 3.5 " case,
load up 90gr 4759, card wad,couple felt wads,and
600 gr slug, roll crimp.good to go.Ed

Gotcha, assuming the 600 grainers are Dixie. Are you hardening them yourself. Last I had from there, IRC, they were around 16 Brinnell.

Have done slug work with Benelli 90 in smooth bore. Very versatile as to components, and great accuracy for smoothbore. The lock-up has a lot to do with that, IMO. SBE should be of same quality, and just as easy to weight a bit, and still retain some balance for offhand and carry.

The slugs I got from Dixie they hardened them. They
are hardened to about 30BHN.Any one with an old Mauser GEHA
12ga shotgun can use 4759 loads.Other rear locking lug guns
that could be converted, like the 12ga job on the Mauser
are S&L, Sauer, Golden Eagle7000,Champlin. Make fancy 3"
chambered shotguns.Single stack mag for repeater.
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed

Saving here, thanks again Hubel!!

We're scaling up a nice looking falling block
to put our 12ga FH big case in.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

That is the beginning of some BIG IRON, LOL!!!

Saving, and thanks again!

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

Thanks again, Hubel, and saving!

Hey you guys go back and view his infofrom beginning. He has got some innovative research and development going on. Take a look at what the Dixie(IRC) did to the corner of the steel table on the woodpile shoot.

With the right slug, that is what you call T Rex Hurt,............................................................BIG TIME!!!

And, some of the guns/loadsHubel has worked with, in 13 to 15lb, balanced configuration are right there with 3 1/2 inch shotgun loads for recoil. If you can handle that on a turkey or goose, then handling when T Rex comes for you shouldn't be a problem, LOL!!!

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed

Saving, again, and thanks!

I do believe a couple of those would "clear" a fair-sized room!!!

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.