Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Been testing the 12GA From Hell--

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.




Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.




On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.



Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed





PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US...


.

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.



Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.



Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.





And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.



Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.



I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

I havde not checked in here in a little bit, have you done/built any SxS hot rodded shotguns with barrels that were regulated or tuned to print together at, say... 50 yards?

missed this when yah first posted.....that looks like 'Leopold' or one of its brothers, have a model of it im gonna put together sometime to go on a shelf with my other stuff.....course 'Dora" dwarfed that one......required two sets of parallel tracks and shot a 800mm diameter shell(31 inch):

No- I haven't done any SxS as none had heavy barrels
for our slower powder loads in long cases..
Rob doing one of which we posted pictures. where he
is mono-blocking in heavy 12ga barrels.I don't
know if it is regulated and finished yet. Hopefully
he will get it done this year.Ed

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.



Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.




I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

Ed,

Now that brass is available, do you see off the shelf rifles and ammo available someday? CZ? Montana Rifle? Anyone- Reasonable Price bolt gun? A gun for hunting and ammo for hunting: perhaps 750gr might run 2100 fps in a rifle that can be carried 10 to 13 pounds 24 in bbl? Anyone making a 505 could do a 585 just as easy.

Hopefully as that is my only goal in life.If I"m around for
15 more years, might get it done. After a bunch of cases
are around, and guys are building more guns;
I'm going to pick on Ruger and Hornady,
who work together with Hodgdon a lot, to start with #1 the easiest one to do first, with Hornady making
brass, and loaded rounds. Hornady has brass factory,
and the Ruger #1 just needs heavy 585 barrel, and
little weight in the butt and thick pad..
Also you mention MRC's reasonable Gibbs rifle offering maybe
get them going and have the new Jamison Co make cases
and load rounds, after they get rolling.

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.



Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..



Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.



Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.



Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.



Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up



Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.



Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.



Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.



Next is a further idea with the tube and roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.



Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.



Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load...Ed

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.



The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.




All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..



The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed