Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Smallish bore rifles on elk?

I'd add temperament. A rutting bull can be dead on his feet and accomplish some amazing Superman like feats prior to actually biting the dust.

LOL uh ok that's why i said that LOL!!! Read futher and you'll see why i said it.

The majority of authorities seem to agree that recoil of over 20 ft. lbs. will cause the average shooter to develop a flinch, which is ruinous to accuracy. I estimate that about 15 ft. lbs. of recoil energy represents upper limit of the average shooter's comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. The effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder a rifle kicks, the more unpleasant shooting becomes and the more likely you are to jerk the trigger or flinch.

Taken "in segment" off Hawks website.I don't always agree with Chuckie but i happen to agree with this as long as it pretains to "the average guy"

I think we need to keep this "average guy" in mind. We are not average shooters on this, and similar, forums. The "average" hunter/shooter is not here. Most of my friends that hunt, and that is most of the men I know, have no idea and no interest about these sites. I would be willing to bet most of the guys here are better than average shots, and there are a relatively large number of us here that can shoot a magnum well.
You guys are better than average.

I happen to agree, occasionally when I am around the gun counter I hear conversations that make me shudder. However it seems to me that this discussion always degenerates into the magnumits argument where it's assumed that the miss was recoil induced, rather than poor shooting in general. I have helped find several elk for others over the years, who readily admitted to flinching. The solution suggest on the web always, seems to be use a smaller caliber with less kick, and that will magically solve the problem. It won't, a poor shooter is still a poor shooter no matter the caliber.
I have helped and attempted to recover far "more" game, shot with 6mms, and smaller than those wounded with Magnums. That's just my experience with over 60years in the woods. I know that guides deal with a lot more people than I , but that's my data base. The more energy you can deliver down range the better your chances of recovery no matter the hit. That does't suggest that I support poor shooting, its the opposite. I shoot several hundred rounds annually from both magnums and non magnums. Perfect shots are few, and not always possible. That's where the increased foot lbs on target, may get you a kill, rather than a lost animal

Perhaps a rifle that shows some honest wear is a better indicator of ability than the cartridge. A shiny new rifle that looks unfired might be cause for concern, although it won't always be true.

If that were true you wouldn't be hearing stories like dogzapper told about the guy and the .250 Savage, or guides almost unanimously perferring clients with non-magnum rifles.

I strongly believe a great deal of hunters are better shots with smaller rifles. They might not be the great shots with a small rifle, but they are still better shots than with a magnum.

Im chuckling over the gun counter chatter. I agree, Ive heard some bizzare requirements to kill critters. Usually it takes something bigger than a 300 win mag to get the job done.

When I was a kid, grizzlies were dieing from 30-06's, but you can't do that now a days......

Or an indication that he shops on Gunbroker.

The reason for my disclaimer.

I sure do, Pat. Those were the good old days. I also miss being able to buy a sheep tag every year, although I don't have horses now, and the mountains are getting higher and steeper, and...

I also remember the sheep hunt just the two of us did in the Hilgards back in '86



Thanks Brent. I was lucky enough years ago to find a 370 bull and a 340 bull that filled my freezers and the wall of my trophy room. Since then I've just concentrated on filling my freezer. I butcher all of my game animals myself, and I cook then grind the trimmings so my dogs have always been able to enjoy some of the game meat too.

Good points here Elkmen. While I believe the average hunter will do better with a "standard" round, it doesn't just happen because he is shooting a smaller round. As we all know, it takes knowledge and practice to become a good shot.
I maintain that the average hunter does not shoot well enough to realize the full potential of even the average factory rifle.
Good thing most big game is shoot relatively close.

What it comes down to is this: If you can shoot it, use it - if not, use something else.

A good hit is always better than a poor one.

I remember you always had Buffy along when we used to shoot trap out at Logan every wednesday night. You'd toss five empty shotgun shells on the floor of the clubhouse, and Buffy would gather them all up and bring them back to you.......not one at a time, all five at once!

Yeah she loved to retrieve shot shells. After I switched to shooting Skeet, she got better at retrieving shells. Her record was eight empty 12 ga hulls in one mouthful...thrown by Barbara Mandrell's kids at a shoot that she and her husband Ken shot with us.

My hat goes off to you, that's like the 3rd or 4th post that has made sense. As you know, I've kind of been stirring the pot about this whole magnum accuracy thing and I'll agree with you that most of us here are not "average". I was thinking about this today as I drove out to my elk hunting partners house. If we were average, we wouldn't be so damn worried about bedding, action screw torque, whether to freefloat or not, dialing in our handloads so they hit where we want them to and making sure they have minimal run-out. Most of us here arn't "average" shooters and I guess I took offense to what gravestone implied in his post. I've got buddies that don't shoot competition that are average and I know some guys that talk a big game and I've actually talked some of these guys into coming down and proving that their rifles CAN'T "cut the x-ring out of the target" like they've suggested. The others that are fun to watch are the ones that swear their sako trg's can shoot 1/2" groups at 300 yards. I've heard many bs statements and most of the time, can see right through them....I didn't want to whip out pictures of targets that I've shot with my "hunting" loads (regular ol Hornady btsp interlock bullets) but oh well, I've nothing to hide:

5 shot group with my hunting load in my 300 wsm (the M stands for magnum I believe):


10 shots:


Another 10 shots, 11 shots including the sighter (1 sighter at 1'Oclock) at 160 yards:


Now for my 338 win mag (and it's a ruger m77 of all things):
(3 shot group)


4 shot group:


But it doesn't matter how you shoot off the bench when an animal is out in front of you.......That's when I go on auto pilot and just let things happen......2 weeks ago on my cow elk hunt, I spotted a nice one moving thru the scrub oak at a trot and I took her at 88 measured yards. Nice easy shot, wait for the right moment and you know the rest of the story.......:

[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/1118120921.jpg[/img]

Targets don't mean chit if you can't put your rifle and skills to work out in the field.....I used my 9.3x62mm mauser on that cow 2 weeks ago and I guess it isn't a magnum (is it???). This is how she shoots:

[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/002-86.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/001-97.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/003-71.jpg[/img]

Just plain ol hunting bullets there, nothing more or less....

I wasn't implying it toward you or anyone eles in this thread.
There was a very simular thread on another site and i visit that site from time to time. The guy i was refering to has in the past made some post thats leads me to believe he's full of $hit. Thats what that comment was directed toward.
BSA and Buffy put their money where their mouth is and showed me that they can shoot the mags as well as "lighter recoiling" guns.
And i still say that these guys,in my experience are the exception not the rule.

Some fine targets there, bsa.

I once worked for a guy that questioned why I spent so much time at the range and "tweaking" loads. I told him that if I couldn't develop the most accurate loads possible with my rifles, how could I expect to quickly kill that monster whatever that suddenly appears on the on the next ridge?

Shooting off the bench shows you what your bullets and rifle are capable of shooting. You're on your own in the field, and the more trigger time that you have at the range, the better you're chances are when that trophy of a lifetime appears across the canyon or in thick timber that you have to thread your bullet to.

Thanks my friend. Great post too. Another thing that may get overlooked is how much field time a person may get on small game, rodents, birds, and even competition type atmospheres. Trigger time is mucho important and if you can do this while under stress, it will tremendously help when the time comes to pulling the trigger on a big game animal out in the field. I see you know what I'm talking about, judging by the pictures you posted and the fact that you have also hunted with Pat (scenar). I consider myself lucky because I grew up in the sticks (Northern Nevada) where there was nothing to do but chase jack rabbits, coyotes, deer and other vermin. After so much time chasing various species of game animals you will develop an almost instinctive ability to do what needs to be done: IE: put the game down as humanely as possible. Something else that comes to mind is some should start out with a single shot rifle so they learn to make that first shot count (regardless of the cartridge they use). I didn't start hunting elk until I moved to oregon about 20 years ago and have been hooked ever since. Good thread guys......

"Good thread guys......"
I'll second that.