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#7174049 - 12/12/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: KyWindageII]  
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DigitalDan Offline
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Originally Posted by KyWindageII
Yawn. Another HV rimfire. The .17 HMR seems to have been developed for the eradication of western ground squirrels and nothing else. It is too powerful for edible Eastern tree squirrels, cottontails and grouse, but insufficient for Woodchucks and other critters of that size.

This Eastern Hunter would like to see an updated .25 Stevens Rimfire with a 65 grain bullet at 1150-1200 fps for edible small game and a 60 grain JHP at close to 2,000 fps for critters up to Coyotes to 100 yards. A fast turkey load would be nice too.

Since so few of us hunt edible small game anymore, there will never be a market to develop such a load not to mention the expense of developing suitable firearms.

Oh well...


Would be pleased to see a larger bore RF introduced or reintroduced myself. The .32 Long is OK, but I'd like something in the .40+ caliber range, maybe 200 grains or a bit more around 1400-1500 fps.

Think what Hornady did with the .17 HMR introduction was a brilliant piece of marketing and have no issues with those that have a use for them. I don't, nor do I see any particular need for another small bore RF cartridge. They all have some catching up to do with the .22 Hornet which is the bottom rung on the ballistic ladder insofar as varmint cartridges go. Barring a significant advance in propellent performance RFs will never close the gap on any CF varmint cartridge.



I am..........disturbed.

I always wondered what the job application is like at Hooters. Do they just give you a bra and say, “Here, fill this out?”



CMG 300 BP

#7175886 - 12/12/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: DigitalDan]  
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Yoder409 Offline
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From another site:

Originally Posted by another guy
This is an update from the guy who originally released the info.

We broke the news here that Winchester is introducing what is going to be the fastest rimfire cartridge in the world in early 2013. Whats clear is that this round will up the performance bar for rimfires by quite a margin giving it a clear ballistic advantage over other rimfire rounds.

But how will it do with respect to the two As: accuracy and affordability? I know that one of Winchesters main goals is to keep the round affordable, about within 10 to 15 percent of the price of current premium rimfire ammunitionso it should be competitively priced.

With respect to accuracy, I have reason to be optimistic and reason for concern. Some key elements of this cartridge have a proven track record when it comes to accuracy, while others are venturing into uncharted, and potentially hazardous territoryat least from the standpoint of turning in small groups.

But Winchester's key partner in this venturethe company that is making the first rifles for this roundtakes its accuracy very seriously, so Id be surprised if the round doesnt turn in varmint-sized groups at 200 yards.

But Ill only know the answer to that question once I get behind the trigger.


And then...........

Originally Posted by another guy
Another update, more info found.


If you think the 300 Win. Mag. is a significant improvement over the .30-06, wait until you shoot the new ground-breaking rimfire cartridge from Winchester. I'm not allowed to disclose its name or caliber yet, but it's scheduled to storm the market in 2013, beginning as soon as early or mid-March. Its performance exceeds current cartridges in its class by a wider margin than the 300 Win. Mag. over the .30-06.

I don't say this based merely on rumor or manufacturer hype. I've shot the new round. It does everything Winchester says it will. The bullets fly from the muzzle 500 fps faster than any other rimfire cartridge I'm aware of. At 250 yards, they retain nearly double the energy of the next-best round in their class. During my testing off sand bags from a portable bench, five bullets clustered just over 1 inch at 100 yards in light but variable winds. A single four-shot group went into a .39-inch spread, and one 300-yard four-shot group fell inside of 2.5 inches. All this was accomplished with a prototype bolt-action rifle so unrefined that cartridges had to be hand fed and extracted from the chamber with a knife blade.

Ballistic coefficient and velocity of the bullets are so high that this new round should hold a Maximum Point Blank Range of 250 yards on an 8-inch target. This means you aim at the center of the 8-inch target and hit it at any and all distances out to 250 yards. Last but not least, the new rounds should cost within 10 percent of currently available rimfire rounds in their class, or about a third less than some centerfire rounds with similar ballistic performance.

Because dimensions of the round are significantly different from any others currently made, at least one gun maker is reportedly building newly designed bolt-action rifles to fire it. Two more are reportedly working on additional models. Whether those are bolt actions, break actions, levers, semiautos or something else remains to be revealed.

New cartridges are a tried and sometimes true method for ramping up sales in the shooting industry, but most of them provide only incremental improvements over existing rounds. This new cartridge from Winchester is more than that. Much more. It should be a game changer.


Wollen nicht krank dein feind. Planen es.
#7176243 - 12/12/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Yoder409]  
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tndrbstr Offline
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E TN,..yep, thats right!
Thats pretty interesting yoder409. I just question the void that is lacking in the current line up that is going to draw enough of a market to justify and sustain a new round (plus the gun to shoot it) in the long haul.

I'm not saying its not there, I just think its gonna have to be a few steps beyond the novelty factor to survive.....now If I could kill a coyote at 200 yrds with it with out compensating my aiming point I might just be the first in line for it....

#7176888 - 12/12/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: tndrbstr]  
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avagadro Offline
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Be interested to hear what it will do the Hornet will not

Last edited by avagadro; 12/12/12.

George
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Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted by GOD
... That is when I carried you ...
#7177482 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: avagadro]  
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BarryC Offline
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Screw the rimfires. Think 5.7x28! grin


Islam is a terrorist organization.

Alpha

#7177520 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Yoder409]  
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BarryC Offline
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Originally Posted by Yoder409
F

Ballistic coefficient and velocity of the bullets are so high that this new round should hold a Maximum Point Blank Range of 250 yards on an 8-inch target.

A 35gr bullet at 2,300fps


Islam is a terrorist organization.

#7177557 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: avagadro]  
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tndrbstr Offline
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E TN,..yep, thats right!
Originally Posted by avagadro
Be interested to hear what it will do the Hornet will not


The main thing that would set it apart from the hornet, or any other centerfire for that matter, regardless of the ballistic charachteristics is that it won't use a replaceable centerfire primer...THAT is the game changer in comparing this "mystery" round to any other centerfire.

It has to do with state hunting regulations more so to me than the ballistic characteristics when compareing to a centerfire.













#7177758 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: tndrbstr]  
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centershot Offline
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When something sounds too good to be true..........well, it usually is. Will have to wait and see on this one.


A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
#7177768 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: tndrbstr]  
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Blackheart Offline
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Originally Posted by tndrbstr
Originally Posted by avagadro
Be interested to hear what it will do the Hornet will not


The main thing that would set it apart from the hornet, or any other centerfire for that matter, regardless of the ballistic charachteristics is that it won't use a replaceable centerfire primer...THAT is the game changer in comparing this "mystery" round to any other centerfire.

It has to do with state hunting regulations more so to me than the ballistic characteristics when compareing to a centerfire.












Plus, .22 Hornet ammo is 56.00 for a box of 50 at Wal-Mart. Lots of folks don't reload and don't want to.

#7180490 - 12/13/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Blackheart]  
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avagadro Offline
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I was more concerned with its ballistic characteristics,

Agree many folks don't reload and don't want to .... But many do and don't mind...


George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted by GOD
... That is when I carried you ...
Bravo

#7184920 - 12/14/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: avagadro]  
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Lazarus_Long Offline
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I'm betting either something like a .32 Long sized rimfire cartridge necked down to 20 cal or something really off the wall like a short, squat WSSM style rimfire. There have been .32 and .44 rimfires forever, no reason you couldn't take one and neck it down to a smaller caliber like .22 or .20.

#7185191 - 12/14/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Lazarus_Long]  
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DigitalDan Offline
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Don't have any idea what Winchester has up its sleeve but there are a couple of points some of you seem to be overlooking in the wishes/dreams/hopes department.

First and most obvious is the pressure constraints attendant to rimfire cartridges. Second is the reason for bottle necking a cartridge case. It is done to provide more case capacity for a given caliber bore. More capacity equals more powder equals higher pressure. Third, the only way to overcome the pressure issue is to radically alter the form of the pressure curve. Forth and last, long range performance is as much about ballistic coefficients than muzzle velocity, or more when the relative range is very long. Once an aerodynamically efficient nose and base form for a bullet is established the only way to enhance BC is to add mass. Greater mass leads you back to problems with pressure, that being the essential weakness of the RF concept.

Don't get your hopes up too high.


I am..........disturbed.

I always wondered what the job application is like at Hooters. Do they just give you a bra and say, “Here, fill this out?”



#7185747 - 12/15/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: DigitalDan]  
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Lazarus_Long Offline
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You keep throwing out pressure. Doesn't the 5mm Remington Mag have a max pressure of 39,000 CUP? That would seem to indicate pressure is not the issue in rimfire cartridges you seem to think it is. That is 22 Hornet level.

Last edited by Lazarus_Long; 12/15/12.
#7185922 - 12/15/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: KyWindageII]  
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Ole_270 Offline
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Ks
Originally Posted by KyWindageII
Yawn. Another HV rimfire. The .17 HMR seems to have been developed for the eradication of western ground squirrels and nothing else. It is too powerful for edible Eastern tree squirrels, cottontails and grouse, but insufficient for Woodchucks and other critters of that size.

This Eastern Hunter would like to see an updated .25 Stevens Rimfire with a 65 grain bullet at 1150-1200 fps for edible small game and a 60 grain JHP at close to 2,000 fps for critters up to Coyotes to 100 yards. A fast turkey load would be nice too.

Since so few of us hunt edible small game anymore, there will never be a market to develop such a load not to mention the expense of developing suitable firearms.

Oh well...


That sounds a lot like my favorite knock around rifle and loads. Original M94 Marlin 25-20 WCF shooting cast bullets. Lyman 257420GC over 13-4198 gives about 2kfps and is a great load for small game headshots up through coyotes

#7187258 - 12/15/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Lazarus_Long]  
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ratsmacker Offline
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Originally Posted by Lazarus_Long
You keep throwing out pressure. Doesn't the 5mm Remington Mag have a max pressure of 39,000 CUP? That would seem to indicate pressure is not the issue in rimfire cartridges you seem to think it is. That is 22 Hornet level.



Yes, and in the original rendition of the ammo, it had a lot of problems, resulting in extractor problems, etc. The Centurion ammo is using a lighter bullet and different powder to get where it needs to go, at easier-to-handle pressures.
The technology today MIGHT make it easier to get something worthwhile here, but we won't know that until there are a few out there getting used.

We can speculate all we like, but we won't know a thing until it gets here and some knowledgeable people get to try it out.


You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
#7188611 - 12/15/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: Lazarus_Long]  
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DigitalDan Offline
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In the Swamps
Originally Posted by Lazarus_Long
You keep throwing out pressure. Doesn't the 5mm Remington Mag have a max pressure of 39,000 CUP? That would seem to indicate pressure is not the issue in rimfire cartridges you seem to think it is. That is 22 Hornet level.


Keep your hopes up if you wish. I know the facts are inconvenient and all that.

In response to your question, no.
In response to your conclusion, Your spin on my assertion is sadly misguided.
In response to your implied equivalence of pressure level with the Hornet, no.

Last edited by DigitalDan; 12/15/12.

I am..........disturbed.

I always wondered what the job application is like at Hooters. Do they just give you a bra and say, “Here, fill this out?”



#7193436 - 12/16/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: VarmintGuy]  
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DMc Offline
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TX
Originally Posted by VarmintGuy
To date I have used my 17 HMR Rifles (and one pistol) to cleanly kill:
Coyotes
Fox
Badgers (these Varmints take a LOT of killing by the way!)
Porcupine
Raccoon
Snowshoe Hares
Rock Chucks
Skunks
Jack Rabbits
Prairie Dogs
Rattle Snakes
Wild Turkeys
feral cats
Grouse
large flying Varmints
Cottontail Rabbits
Ground Squirrels
Weasels (and Ermine)

VarmintGuy


Huh? No turtles? Geez....

DMc

#7194844 - 12/17/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: drover]  
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VarmintGuy Offline
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Drover: I think you miss-spoke (or miss-posted!) - indeed someone blasphamed a wonderful cartridge and I chose to defend against such blasphemy!
Lest someone get the wrong impression after reading such blasphemy.
I did not just randomly choose to give a pep talk on my "favorite cartridge".
And, I would not say I am worked up as much as being in a state of disbelief that someone could have such an unfounded and erroneous opinion regarding one of "my favorite" cartridges.
Again my defense of the 17 HMR was not intended to provide you with winter reading but to prevent anyone from a glaring misconception of what the 17 HMR is fully capable of doing, I know - cause I done it!
I was back to this thread looking for specifics on this "new" Winchester rimfire cartridge - seems there aren't any yet?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

#7194861 - 12/17/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: DMc]  
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VarmintGuy Offline
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DMc: I have not killt a Turtle as yet with my 17 HMR but that may happen in the future!
One of my favorite Prairie Dog ranches has a remote stock pond that Turtles have invaded and the ranch owner is miffed because his Catfish don't flourish like they used to.
I have helped him a couple of times with reducing his Turtle population but alas not yet with the 17 HMR.
No "geez" to it the 17 HMR is an all around Varmint rimfire cartridge of the first order!
Long live the 17 HMR.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

#7197252 - 12/17/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: VarmintGuy]  
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bracer Offline
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Varmint Guy: I have to add the 17 HM2 round along with the 17 HMR for spring prairie dog pup shooting .I consider myself over gunned using the 17 HMR for shots within 100 yards. I have gotten five boxes of 17 Hornet ammo, a 4-16X AO scope,and military sling,but still have to order Redding Neck& FL dies and some empty brass. Whenever I get a 17 Hornet rifle I ll have all I need to shot it. Come spring I plan on having the three rifles in my pickup. Over the years after reading about various new cartridges. I got them so I know what they will do. Theres some who have a lot of ideas but I doubt that they have tryed out only a few firearms and cartridges.

#7197416 - 12/17/12 Re: New Rimfire From Winchester [Re: VarmintGuy]  
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DigitalDan Offline
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In the Swamps
VG, when you getting married?


I am..........disturbed.

I always wondered what the job application is like at Hooters. Do they just give you a bra and say, “Here, fill this out?”



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